The threat of godless ideologies

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harry Truman pointed out the danger of secular fundamentalism:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

And WHY would you imageine (for it IS imagination alone that guides you) that the Author of the Bill of Rights, JAMES MADISON, who was NOT a regular churchgoer, who had little to nothing positive to say about religion, who did NOT ask for religious service at his deathbed...was inspired by the Bible?

Have you ever READ the Bible? It is NOT a book about Natural Rights theory. Madison was an Individual Rights advocate from the word go.

Jason

I responded to your disinformation about Madison, but what does it have to do with the topic?

Are you conceding the obvious, i.e. disbelief has been a far greater scourge to humanity than belief?

Do a little reading and you'll learn, if you're capable of such, that you ALONE are responsible for the spread of DISHONESTY and DISINFORMATION about James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, et. al. If you were to do some actual *study* you would find that while the founders did generally believe in the existence of a higher power, they were NOT willing to give control of the moral conscience of individuals to the government nor to any church by way of the government. Their insistence on LIBERTY as the primary motivator in the formation of the US Constitution and government is PROOF positive that they operated from a SECULAR base.

Your premise is far too broad, far too disingenuous. What man needs is MORALITY, *NOT* explicitly religion. Religion is no guarantee of morality, as history *clearly* shows.

Jason

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Tommunist
"I do! "

That deer had a better life and death than any animal brought up in the industrialized meat world. If it were possible for everyone to hunt their own food and only take what they need I would say only do that but it's just not possible with our society as it is right now.

It's part of the same disease. Religous fundamentalism, killing animals. Every evangelical I've met goes hunting. What's up with that? Riprorin probably eats too much red meat anyway.

Well, I dunno about that, LOL People hunted BEFORE there was such a thing as religion, simply out of necessity. For hte purpose of *survival*, I can understand hunting. For the purposes of sport...that I don't get at all. I don't even know if I could bring myself to kill something to *survive* much less so I could stuff its head on the wall

Jason

 

[sao123]

What man needs is MORALITY, *NOT* explicitly religion

Without Religion (The first record of such morality being the 10 commandments were given to Moses), morality would not have existed.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harvey, a lot of the venom I see from the left here is directed at those who espouse Christian belief, regardless of the fact that those who have killed in Christ's name are clearly acting contrary to His life and teachings.

I find it interesting that the slaughter of 6 million Jews occured in the most educated nation of the time in a land that gave birth to the Enlightment. It just shows what man is capable of when he elevates himself and his domineering will and attempts to live without God.

That's my observation anyway.

It has NOTHING to do with "living without God". It has to do with the ABANDONMENT of REASON. Germany could HARDLY be called "the most educated nation of the time" then any more than they can now. Nor can you overlook the fact that Germany was in a bad state of affairs when Hitler came to power, and he offered them the BELIEF that if they would just FOLLOW him he would LEAD them to GREATNESS and GLORY.

If they had been so educated in Philosophy they would have recognized immediately and en masse that there could be no good to come from such an evil plan, even when it's performed in the name of God.

Your religious nuts are all the same. You claim that man is destructive and evil without God, yet when its pointed out that they've caused ENORMOUS death and suffering IN THE NAME OF GOD, you always cop out with the generic answer, "Oh, but they were acting against God's will."

Yeah, right. Read the Old Testament. See how peaceful and Loving your god is?

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: aidanjm
He was apparently looking to amalgamate certain branches of Christianity. But whatever. Even if he WAS looking to "eliminate Christianity" then so fvcking what? What exactly do you think that would prove???? How do you account for the fact that large numbers of Christians ENTHUSIASTICALLY EMBRACED Nazi ideology, and actually believed that Christianity and Nazi ideology were in perfect harmony? How do you explain the fact that the Vatican, and many Christian religious figures in Germany did almost nothing to oppse Hitler, EVEN WHEN they became aware of Hitler's policies of "genetic purification" and persecution of Jews????????

They believed Christianity and Fascism were in harmony because they ARE. So are Christianity and Communism. So are Communism and Fascism. They are all sides of the SAME issue, and that fundamental issue comes to this: Faith versus Reason. Do you believe what you are told because of some authority or do you study and learn and grant authority based on truth? Make your choice.

Oh, and flame or not, Riprorin is CLEARLY a moron, quite likely a RECENT CONVERT who's shown us all VERY clearly that he's no different, no more educated, no more OBJECTIVE, no more intelligent than you average, run of the mill recent convert. Who here hasn't heard this tripe before from some recent convert?

God, Rip, you're more predictable than an episode of Survivor.

Jason

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Tommunist
"I do! "

That deer had a better life and death than any animal brought up in the industrialized meat world. If it were possible for everyone to hunt their own food and only take what they need I would say only do that but it's just not possible with our society as it is right now.

It's part of the same disease. Religous fundamentalism, killing animals. Every evangelical I've met goes hunting. What's up with that? Riprorin probably eats too much red meat anyway.

Well, I dunno about that, LOL People hunted BEFORE there was such a thing as religion, simply out of necessity. For hte purpose of *survival*, I can understand hunting. For the purposes of sport...that I don't get at all. I don't even know if I could bring myself to kill something to *survive* much less so I could stuff its head on the wall

Jason

Humans were designed to eat meat (among other kinds of foods as well). We are all animals and I'm sure if a Lion was hungry it would eat me (and I'd be delicious I might add). This is the way of things - it has nothing to do with religion at the basic level.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: sao123

What man needs is MORALITY, *NOT* explicitly religion

Without Religion (The first record of such morality being the 10 commandments were given to Moses), morality would not have existed.

I hope you never become unreligious b/c you obviously are an empty shell of a person without it if you don't think you have morals all on your own.

 

[sao123]

You claim that man is destructive and evil without God, yet when its pointed out that they've caused ENORMOUS death and suffering IN THE NAME OF GOD, you always cop out with the generic answer, "Oh, but they were acting against God's will."

On the contrary GOD told them to invade all the lands and wipe out all the people. Unfortunaely they let some live and made peace with those nations, and they intermarried and were decieved by the outsiders into believing in Baal and other non-christian gods. If the Israelites would have wiped out everyone as they were told, we wouldnt have many of the conflicts we do today. There would be no muslim - christianity - jewish fight over who should control jerusalem as their holy city. etc etc.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: sao123

You claim that man is destructive and evil without God, yet when its pointed out that they've caused ENORMOUS death and suffering IN THE NAME OF GOD, you always cop out with the generic answer, "Oh, but they were acting against God's will."

On the contrary GOD told them to invade all the lands and wipe out all the people. Unfortunaely they let some live and made peace with those nations, and they intermarried and were decieved by the outsiders into believing in Baal and other non-christian gods. If the Israelites would have wiped out everyone as they were told, we wouldnt have many of the conflicts we do today. There would be no muslim - christianity - jewish fight over who should control jerusalem as their holy city. etc etc.

baahhahahahahahahaha - you are hilarious man!

 

[kotss]

sao123
On the contrary GOD told them to invade all the lands and wipe out all the people. Unfortunaely they let some live and made peace with those nations, and they intermarried and were decieved by the outsiders into believing in Baal and other non-christian gods. If the Israelites would have wiped out everyone as they were told, we wouldnt have many of the conflicts we do today. There would be no muslim - christianity - jewish fight over who should control jerusalem as their holy city. etc etc.

How truly wonderful. That is such a good and loving god, lets wipe out all the non-jews. Lets not forget
that according to the bible all of us are gods children. Where is the forgiveness of this wonderful divine
god. Truly it is the lack of reason and pursuit of greed and power that leads people to commit the horrible
offenses that do occur. What part of the bible do you follow the Old or the New Testament. Are they in conflict in anyway. Truly genocide must be the divine will of God if only the Jews were supposed to have survived. So according to you lets just wipe out all but the Jews and everything will be fine. Who will be
there to worry about all the murder, especially all those guilty children. They should be damned for not
having been born in a family that believes in God or Christ. They were born with sin because someone
whispered to me in my sleep that I am guilty because some guy ate an apple a long time ago, of course
he was succumbing to the influence of an evil woman. Yes lets make sure all the sins of man are forever
blamed on women. Oh lets not forget the woman was given the apple by Lucifer, yes once purported to be
the ArchAngel. Yes what a perfect God that is, could not even create a universe where eveything went to
his will. Oh lets make up that I gave everybody free will just so they could be damned and pay for the sins
for the rest of time. What a truly wonderful system that is.

Just a rant.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Have your faith whatever it is, use reason to come to the
conclusions you come to, do not let others interpretations come between you and your faith. Religion is
the greatest evil in this world. MORALITY is not the sole providence of religion or the religious. All humans
have the capacity for morality, using a book that does not date back more than at best 2000 years is no
valid point of reference for morality, morals were existent long before that book ever came into being.

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: sao123

Who cares if you think the Christian GOD, the GOD of the bible is fair or moral or discriminating or evil. He doesnt answer to you.

This is the same God who in the old testament took a small tribe of people and made them into a nation. Told them to invade lands and kill all the people in them and take all their possessions, and then inhabit the land. Called them to destroy anything that opposed their beliefs. So what?

When you die and you stand before the all powerful, all knowing, and pissed off GOD...and he says "You did not follow my commands, Go to Hell" What are you going to say to him? "I'm an aethiest and you dont exist!" Are you a god yourself that you can stop him? He wont be interested in your pathetic little excuses, you're either for him or against him. Thats all that matters. you have a choice to make...either you do what he says or not.

The point is when the chips fall down... when armageddon happens and the world is destroyed.... fair or unfair... be a true follower with the most powerful GOD in the universe, or end up with all the rest of those who oppose him in hell where he puts you. Who is going to stop him? YOU?

Yes lets have a wonderful example to live by. Is that not what God should be for those who choose to
follow in his path. If you strive to be more like God, then you should be killing all the non-believers , for
they are foul im my sight. What a load of hogwash. Oh Wait, I changed my tune, Thou shalt not kill.
Wait I will change my tune, Thou shalt not kill unless it is for a really good reason that I tell you it is good
for. Like genocide. Truly spectacular.

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: Genx87

So according to you "Secularists will eventually lack moral character", how do you contrive this viewpoint.

Have you watched the the secularists in this country? If it was upto them everything would go and nobody would have the right to question the behaviors.

Are morals the sole onwership of only those who believe in a GOD/GOD's. I do have morals, they are
behavorial patterns that indicate wether someone is acting within the bounds of what society has
determined good or bad.

Yes most morals are contrived through societies viewpoints. The viewpoints of this country for the past 200 years has been very christian. Now watch what has been happening the past 20 years with the friction between the tradionalists and the secularists in this country.

Secuarlisim stands for not doing much of anything and letting everything go. This is fine but eventually somebody is going to say I have the freedom to do this and there isnt anything you can do about it. Even if it is illegal by the old moral standard.

Do you think if you werent influenced by christian morals the morals you hold today would be the same?

But as society changes either morals change or you risk the chance of having
your moral base changed. I do not agree with all changes to accepted moral behavior. I merely make
the point that over time, accepted moral behaviors can and will change. Moral character is more derived
from the parenting rather than from faith.

Very true however we have had the our morals grinded into us by our parents. The majority of whom have christian backgrounds.

One has to ask how did man act before the creation of organized religion? How do you think we will act when organized religion falls?

I am not for forcing my beliefs on people. However I do believe secularist states in the past have act much more brutally than religious states. Both are terrible and I think a happy medium needs to be made.

Well just the fact the human race is still here even before organized religion leads me to believe that there
must have been some sort of civilized behavior going on. Were there not laws before religion?
Where there not punishments for laws broken prior to religion?

You make big assumptions in that my forebearers were of christian nature. Typically arrogant.
You might be right, but you could be wrong. (I will appease your curiosity, they were probably best
described as non practicing christians.) If I were to follow in my fathers footsteps I would be a drunk who
would slap his wife around. I am married and love my wife and do not hit or threaten my wife, have we
argued, sure. Now where did my morals come from in this case. I saw something that was wrong and CHOSE to correct it in my life. This did not come from God. It came from Logic and Reason. You do
not get people to love you, by beating or killing them. That does not require a degree in advanced
theology to understand, unless you are mentally unstable. Morals come from Logic and Reason and
seeing the result of unwanted behavior not from religious superiority.

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Secularists will eventually lack moral character. Christians will force their will on the populace.

I am not for forcing my beliefs on people. However I do believe secularist states in the past have act much more brutally than religious states. Both are terrible and I think a happy medium needs to be made.

Great contradiction there. That is the kind of logic and reason that leads people to be easily manipulated.
Then what do you really think?

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Tommunist
"I do! "

That deer had a better life and death than any animal brought up in the industrialized meat world. If it were possible for everyone to hunt their own food and only take what they need I would say only do that but it's just not possible with our society as it is right now.

It's part of the same disease. Religous fundamentalism, killing animals. Every evangelical I've met goes hunting. What's up with that? Riprorin probably eats too much red meat anyway.

Well, I dunno about that, LOL People hunted BEFORE there was such a thing as religion, simply out of necessity. For hte purpose of *survival*, I can understand hunting. For the purposes of sport...that I don't get at all. I don't even know if I could bring myself to kill something to *survive* much less so I could stuff its head on the wall

Jason

Humans were designed to eat meat (among other kinds of foods as well). We are all animals and I'm sure if a Lion was hungry it would eat me (and I'd be delicious I might add). This is the way of things - it has nothing to do with religion at the basic level.

Yes, I was joking, sort of.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harvey, a lot of the venom I see from the left here is directed at those who espouse Christian belief, regardless of the fact that those who have killed in Christ's name are clearly acting contrary to His life and teachings.

I find it interesting that the slaughter of 6 million Jews occured in the most educated nation of the time in a land that gave birth to the Enlightment. It just shows what man is capable of when he elevates himself and his domineering will and attempts to live without God.

That's my observation anyway.

It has NOTHING to do with "living without God". It has to do with the ABANDONMENT of REASON. Germany could HARDLY be called "the most educated nation of the time" then any more than they can now. Nor can you overlook the fact that Germany was in a bad state of affairs when Hitler came to power, and he offered them the BELIEF that if they would just FOLLOW him he would LEAD them to GREATNESS and GLORY.

If they had been so educated in Philosophy they would have recognized immediately and en masse that there could be no good to come from such an evil plan, even when it's performed in the name of God.

Your religious nuts are all the same. You claim that man is destructive and evil without God, yet when its pointed out that they've caused ENORMOUS death and suffering IN THE NAME OF GOD, you always cop out with the generic answer, "Oh, but they were acting against God's will."

Yeah, right. Read the Old Testament. See how peaceful and Loving your god is?

Jason

And you just choose to ignore the 110,000,000 million or so people murdered by atheistic communists in the 20th century?

How many people were killed IN THE NAME OF GOD in the 20th century?


How many

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

And you just choose to ignore the 110,000,000 million or so people murdered by atheistic communists in the 20th century?
How many people were killed IN THE NAME OF GOD in the 20th century?
How many

Far more than the number of people killed in the name of Confucius you Christian barbarians.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: aidanjm
He was apparently looking to amalgamate certain branches of Christianity. But whatever. Even if he WAS looking to "eliminate Christianity" then so fvcking what? What exactly do you think that would prove???? How do you account for the fact that large numbers of Christians ENTHUSIASTICALLY EMBRACED Nazi ideology, and actually believed that Christianity and Nazi ideology were in perfect harmony? How do you explain the fact that the Vatican, and many Christian religious figures in Germany did almost nothing to oppse Hitler, EVEN WHEN they became aware of Hitler's policies of "genetic purification" and persecution of Jews????????

They believed Christianity and Fascism were in harmony because they ARE. So are Christianity and Communism. So are Communism and Fascism. They are all sides of the SAME issue, and that fundamental issue comes to this: Faith versus Reason. Do you believe what you are told because of some authority or do you study and learn and grant authority based on truth? Make your choice.

Oh, and flame or not, Riprorin is CLEARLY a moron, quite likely a RECENT CONVERT who's shown us all VERY clearly that he's no different, no more educated, no more OBJECTIVE, no more intelligent than you average, run of the mill recent convert. Who here hasn't heard this tripe before from some recent convert?

God, Rip, you're more predictable than an episode of Survivor.

Jason

For your reading pleasure:

The Persecution of the Christian Churches by the Nazis">http://www.cryingvoice.com/Chr...an_martyrs/NaPers.html</a>

?The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian,? Joseph Goebbels, the minister of propaganda, wrote in his diary on December 28, 1939. ?He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race.? In 1941 Hitler told his top aides that ?Christianity is the prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society.?

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harvey, a lot of the venom I see from the left here is directed at those who espouse Christian belief, regardless of the fact that those who have killed in Christ's name are clearly acting contrary to His life and teachings.

I find it interesting that the slaughter of 6 million Jews occured in the most educated nation of the time in a land that gave birth to the Enlightment. It just shows what man is capable of when he elevates himself and his domineering will and attempts to live without God.

That's my observation anyway.

It has NOTHING to do with "living without God". It has to do with the ABANDONMENT of REASON. Germany could HARDLY be called "the most educated nation of the time" then any more than they can now. Nor can you overlook the fact that Germany was in a bad state of affairs when Hitler came to power, and he offered them the BELIEF that if they would just FOLLOW him he would LEAD them to GREATNESS and GLORY.

If they had been so educated in Philosophy they would have recognized immediately and en masse that there could be no good to come from such an evil plan, even when it's performed in the name of God.

Your religious nuts are all the same. You claim that man is destructive and evil without God, yet when its pointed out that they've caused ENORMOUS death and suffering IN THE NAME OF GOD, you always cop out with the generic answer, "Oh, but they were acting against God's will."

Yeah, right. Read the Old Testament. See how peaceful and Loving your god is?

Jason

And you just choose to ignore the 110,000,000 million or so people murdered by atheistic communists in the 20th century?

How many people were killed IN THE NAME OF GOD in the 20th century?


How many

If things keep going the way they are going plenty of people will continue to get killed in the name of someone's God . These terrorists aren't exactly secular.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: aidanjm
He was apparently looking to amalgamate certain branches of Christianity. But whatever. Even if he WAS looking to "eliminate Christianity" then so fvcking what? What exactly do you think that would prove???? How do you account for the fact that large numbers of Christians ENTHUSIASTICALLY EMBRACED Nazi ideology, and actually believed that Christianity and Nazi ideology were in perfect harmony? How do you explain the fact that the Vatican, and many Christian religious figures in Germany did almost nothing to oppse Hitler, EVEN WHEN they became aware of Hitler's policies of "genetic purification" and persecution of Jews????????

They believed Christianity and Fascism were in harmony because they ARE. So are Christianity and Communism. So are Communism and Fascism. They are all sides of the SAME issue, and that fundamental issue comes to this: Faith versus Reason. Do you believe what you are told because of some authority or do you study and learn and grant authority based on truth? Make your choice.

Oh, and flame or not, Riprorin is CLEARLY a moron, quite likely a RECENT CONVERT who's shown us all VERY clearly that he's no different, no more educated, no more OBJECTIVE, no more intelligent than you average, run of the mill recent convert. Who here hasn't heard this tripe before from some recent convert?

God, Rip, you're more predictable than an episode of Survivor.

Jason

For your reading pleasure:

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://
&amp;lt;b"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.cryingvoice.com/Chr...an_martyrs/NaPers.html">The Persecution of the Christi...an_martyrs/NaPers.html</a>]http://www.cryingvoice.com/Christian_martyrs/NaPers.html[/L]

?The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian,? Joseph Goebbels, the minister of propaganda, wrote in his diary on December 28, 1939. ?He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race.? In 1941 Hitler told his top aides that ?Christianity is the prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society.?

Since we can't really know at the time whether someone is truely religious or not what does this matter? A leader or anyone for that matter could pretend to be religious and get into a position of power. The whole concept of this thread is foolish. Religious and non-religious folk alike are capable of doing awful things - end of story.

if you really want to know how I feel about morals and religion I'd take the secular "moral" man over the religious "moral" man every day of the week. You can't easily take away morals from inside someone but if someone is moral only b/c of fear of eternal damnation all you have to do is take away their faith or convince them some higher force wants them to do this that or the other thing. It's very dadngerous to have someone not thinking things through on their own.

 

[sao123]

Well just the fact the human race is still here even before organized religion leads me to believe that there must have been some sort of civilized behavior going on. Were there not laws before religion?
Where there not punishments for laws broken prior to religion?

Well lets see... events that happened until organized religion occurs at the time of Moses.
1)Cain Kills Abel
2)Earth Flooded to Destroy the wicked.
3)Sodom &amp; Gomorrah destroyed.
4)Jacob steals Esaus Blessing &amp; Birthright
5)Jacobs daughter dinah was raped.
6)Joseph was sold by his brothers into slavery, and told their father he was killed by a wild animal.
7)Potiphars wife falsely accused Joseph of Rape.
8)Egypt oppresses the israelites because they were growing too numerous.

Not seeing too much evidence of civilized behavior or laws or civil punishment before the 10 commandments were given to moses. Only punishment I see was set forth by God. (Cain a marked man &amp; a wonderer, Ham Noahs son cursed by God for exploiting Noah's drunkenness, the Flood, Sodoms Destruction, etc)

 

[Riprorin]

Analysis: Germany's underrated resistance
By Uwe Siemon-Netto
UPI Religious Affairs Editor

PARIS, June 30 (UPI) -- Shortly before the suicide of Maj. Gen. Henning von Tresckow, a leading coconspirator in the failed attempt to assassinate Hitler, he wrote: "The moral value of a human being only begins to show where he is prepared to give his life for his conviction."

On July 20, Germany will commemorate the 60th anniversary of Tresckow's self-sacrifice and that of hundreds of others, almost all committed Christians, Catholic or Protestant. Some 200 of Germany's finest were executed for their part in this conspiracy.

Among them were 19 general officers, 26 colonels, two ambassadors, seven other diplomats, a government minister, three state secretaries, the head of the Reich chancellery, and several regional governors and police chiefs. Some -- like Col. Claus Schenk von Stauffenberg, who placed a bomb almost literally under Hitler's feet -- were immediately shot after the coup's failure.

Others, like Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben, were hanged naked on thin ropes from meat hooks, while soundtrack cameras recorded their agonies for Hitler's benefit.

Many were tortured with unspeakable cruelty, the details of which were too gruesome to be described here. Some survived the ordeal, such as Pastor Eugen Gerstenmaier, later speaker of the West German Bundestag, or lower house of parliament.

One who was hanged literally hours before the allied victory was Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Yet for decades their martyrdom was belittled and scoffed at. "The highest personalities in the Third Reich are murdering one another, or trying to," snorted Sir Winston Churchill, then British prime minister, even though the German resistance had informed him beforehand of the assassination plan.

The Underrated Opposition to Hitler

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: sao123

Well just the fact the human race is still here even before organized religion leads me to believe that there must have been some sort of civilized behavior going on. Were there not laws before religion?
Where there not punishments for laws broken prior to religion?

Well lets see... events that happened until organized religion occurs at the time of Moses.
1)Cain Kills Abel
2)Earth Flooded to Destroy the wicked.
3)Sodom &amp; Gomorrah destroyed.
4)Jacob steals Esaus Blessing &amp; Birthright
5)Jacobs daughter dinah was raped.
6)Joseph was sold by his brothers into slavery, and told their father he was killed by a wild animal.
7)Potiphars wife falsely accused Joseph of Rape.
8)Egypt oppresses the israelites because they were growing too numerous.

Not seeing too much evidence of civilized behavior or laws or civil punishment before the 10 commandments were given to moses. Only punishment I see was set forth by God. (Cain a marked man &amp; a wonderer, Ham Noahs son cursed by God for exploiting Noah's drunkenness, the Flood, Sodoms Destruction, etc)

Holy sh!t you are a moron. You are using the bible as your historical reference. What about the rest of the world that isn't even discussed in the bible? I guess their history doesn't count to you. Your ignorance is mind boggling - it's rare that I feel someone is a waste of organic matter.

edit: some of you are seriously giving religious people a bad name - I hope they are ashamed of you

 

[Riprorin]

I don't know who wrote this, but I find it interesting:

If life ends at the grave, then it makes no difference whether one has lived as a Stalin or as a saint. Since one's destiny is ultimately unrelated to one's behavior, you may as well just live as you please. And if God doesn't exist, that also means there are no objective standards of right and wrong. Moral values are either just expressions of personal taste or the by-products of socio-biological evolution and conditioning. In a world without God, who is to say that the values of Adolf Hitler are inferior to those of a saint?

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I don't know who wrote this, but I find it interesting:

If life ends at the grave, then it makes no difference whether one has lived as a Stalin or as a saint. Since one's destiny is ultimately unrelated to one's behavior, you may as well just live as you please. And if God doesn't exist, that also means there are no objective standards of right and wrong. Moral values are either just expressions of personal taste or the by-products of socio-biological evolution and conditioning. In a world without God, who is to say that the values of Adolf Hitler are inferior to those of a saint?

If you lack the character it takes to be a good person and feel required to turn to religion that's okay. This isn't a jab at all religious people - just those that feel it's necesary for someone to be truely moral.

 

[sao123]

Holy sh!t you are a moron. You are using the bible as your historical reference.

And your most prominent use of the bible would be??? A cup coaster? A paperweight? A fairytale storybook?

I have seen nothing that would disprove anything written in the bible as being untrue, on the contrary many of the things i have studied have reflect the information therein to be valid. therefore I have every right and expectation to believe that which is written therein as absolute truth for a historical reference.

Your ignorance is mind boggling - it's rare that I feel someone is a waste of organic matter.

My ignorance is mind boggling? I could claim the same for you unless you have come to understand the saving grace of Jesus Christ and everything he can and will do for you? I can actually wake up every day now and wonder how I even lived life before I turned to Christ, and I still wonder how all the rest of those who dont can survive the everyday trials life now without asking him to guide them. I have come to respect that every minute, every breath given unto me (and everyone else) is a gift from GOD that at any minute could be taken away. What a waste of a soul it will be if after your entire life you reject Christ and end up in eternal hell separated from God.