The threat of godless ideologies

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: stratman
aidanjm, quoting from 'secularhumanism.org' to defend secularism is like quoting from 'christianfundamentals.com' (don't know if this is actually a site, this is just an analogy) to defend christianity. Or like rip quoting 'worldnet' (like he sometimes does ) or whatever that right-wing christian news is called.

I utterly reject that. Secular humanists if nothing else have a committment to the evidence. If you take a look at the article, you'll notice it is carefully referenced. I.e., you do not have to take the claims in that article as a matter of FAITH -- you are free to check the references and decide for yourself.

Originally posted by: stratman
It's a blatantly biased source, just like it's religious counterparts (worldnet, al-jazeera, et al.) The purpose of the piece, if you agree with it or not, is to prove that Hitler was a theist.

OF COURSE it is a fvcking biased piece. Biased, as in, "has an OPINION"... Every fvcking post on this forum is BIASED. And OF COURSE the article was trying to prove a fvcking point. DO you think the fact someone is attempting to prove a point automatically discounts or invalidates that point??? The author of the article seeks to prove a point, and he marshalls evidence (i.e., historical facts) to make his case.

Frankly, I think it is pathetic that your entire objection boils down to, "Nope, I don't like the source". That is piss weak argument.

Originally posted by: stratman
To demonstrate desperation and bias, let's take a look at the following quotes:
"Hitler repeatedly thanked God or Providence for his survival on the western front during the Great War"

EVERYONE I KNOW says 'thank god', christians and die-hard athiests alike. This is like saying "Hitler dabbled heavily in mysticism because he often thanked 'his lucky stars'. Why do they include this? Do they need filler? Do they not have enough legitimate material?

"He never tired of proclaiming that all of this was beyond the power of any mere mortal."

Oh, ok. So he must be a deist then.

"Hitler openly admired Martin Luther, whom he considered a brilliant reformer."

Now if you admire any deist (martin luther), you are also a deist? I admire many athiests, but I'm still a theist. Again, why include this in the piece as it has NO relevance to the issue?

I don't know whether Hitler believed in God or not, or whether he was a Christian or not. I do, though, have a tough time trusting the 'what-might-be-true's of the article, because of the weak points they include, and because of it's source.

[/quote]

Dismissing a piece of evidence because you don't like its source is not "critical thinking". Dismissing a piece of evidence becaused it presents a strong opinion is not "critical thinking". You might want to get into the habit of evaluating a source on it's own merits. That would involve checking its references, for example.

"Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people. How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?"
"You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis."
-Riprorin

Riprorin is hinting (by the title of this thread and the above comments) that an absence of religion is somehow responsible for (or allowed to occur) atrocities committed by the Germans in WWII. IMO it actually is important to point out that the historical record just doesn't support his comments. There is sufficient evidence marshalled in that article to make a convincing case that: 1) Hitler himself was a variant of Christian, 2) Christians voted for him in droves, put him in power, 3) representatives of the xian churches in Germany were enthusiastic in their support for Hitler, 4) Hitler worked closely with the Catholic Church in rome (which was in fact in a position to oppose his rise, but chose not to so so).

 

[Riprorin]

Harry Truman pointed out the danger of secular fundamentalism:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

These contradicting quotes make it obvious that Hitler probably didn't really believe in Christianity, but proclaimed to since it was convenient in his quest for power. What a strange idea that a politcal figure would use the opiate of the masses to gain power.

Does it really matter if he actually believed the Christian principles/propaganda he used to gain power? Do we really know that todays modern politicians truly believe in Christianity, or are they just using it's popularity for their own goals?

It is certain that he used Christianity as a political tool, that he had the support of church figures in germany, and that christians voted for him in droves. To suggest that an absence of religion somehow led to the Nazi atrocities (which is what riprorin is in essence saying) is just silly.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Drift3r
The NAZI's used religion and if anyone refused to acknowledge their political agenda then their patriotism and in some cases their religious faith was publicly put into question and they were quietly whisked away. This is yet another example in history of what happens when church and state become one and end up sharing the same agendas whether it be by choice or not.

Thank Christ, someone who has actually read their history books.

 

[skace]

Atheism is bad!!! Believe in Christ, goddamnit! Riprorin says so.

 

[Red Dawn]

Secular Humanism is no threat, especially when proclaiming to believe in God is so in fashion in America today

 

[kotss]

Hey Riprorin,

How is my lack of faith in a fantasy in anyway a problem.
If I obey the laws of the land, treat others fairly, support my family and respect the right of others
to have faith in whatever god/gods that they want to believe in, how is that destroying the fabric of humanity or America and leading to the death of millions. It has always been those who become corrupt with power that sway the weak of mind and will to do their bidding in the pursuit of whatever goal they see fit. Lets not forget the "religious" have been responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions (if not billions) throughout what is considered recorded history. I am not attacking any particular faith, I attack organized religion which is probably the worst thing ever created. Pray to whatever false beings you need to, but do not use the lack of belief in a crutch to live my life the proper way with wanting or needing to have millions of people dead. History can be perverted anyway one wants to. What must be rooted out are those will use others to perform their nefarious deeds. It will always be the weak willed who will do the
bidding of others because of fear and fear alone.

One final concept: Of all the deaths supposedly committed by aethiests, do you think that all the deaths
were actually caused by only aethiests. There was not one religious person who caused a death which
goes against the base "laws" of their religion.
Oh Yes, I guess it is OKay to murder and kill in the name of GOD, as long as it is not in the name of Man.

 

[SaberDicer]

Well, I guess every atheist ever has gone around comitting atrocities because they don't believe in some bearded man born of a virgin, I'm sure that the lack of belief in a god really corrupts people to the point that they go around murdering, after all every atheist is violent and no one has ever murdered in the name of their lord.

Rip is just trying to convert people, leave it to moronic christian fanatics to try and spin facts. It's not the religion or lack there of that commited the atrocites of russia and the nazi regimes, but rather the personalites of hitler and stalin. They were both sick raving lunatics, there theologies had nothing to do with the choices they made.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

While I still do believe in some form of a higher power, it still shocks me that so many people believe in Christianity and the Bible as if it is the one and only truth. In the end, science and reason will prevail and I believe that Christianity will ultimately decline in this country.

 

[Tommunist]

Rip - you are laughable. I've only been reading this section of the forum for a few days and I already know I shouldn't bother to take you seriously again....

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
The tragedies of the Twentieth Century were constructed upon atheism. The ideologues of fascism, Nazism, and communism believed that no force was higher than themselves or their fantastical utopian dreams.

You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

Time for a history lesson, Rip. In Mein Kamph, Adolph Hitler wrote:

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11, precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]

"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

It doesn't mean all Christians are evil. It only means Christiantity, or any religion, can be, and has been, used as an excuse for the same kinds of wholesale death and destruction you ascribe to "secular fundamentalism." Remember, "Christians" are the same fine folks who brought the world the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, and the lovely, ever popular KKK. :|

Religion is a piss poor excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to explain the unknown, but at least in philosophy, I don't know is an acceptable answer. AFIC, religion is just one more political power structure based entirely on myth and fear, used to divide people against each other.

FUN-da-MENTAL-ists are neither. :|

 

[piasabird]

Interesting article. Religion in its most primitive definition is a belief in something. Everyone has some kind of a blief in some way of thinking or God or religious affiliation, theology, or idealogy.

One precept I recall is the teaching about God and how you can only serve one God. For some people it may be their car or money or lifting weights or their body or exercise or their immaculat yard work. What men do shows you where their heart is.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

Total estimated civilian and military casualties from WWII range from 60-80 million people. Almost 30 million of them concentrated on the Eastern front. The other half in Asia, Africa, and Western Europe.

This doesnt even include communist takeovers in China,SE Asia,Eastern Europe postwar where millions of people are laying in mass graves or simply vanished.

Make no mistake about it. Eventhough religious fundamentalism is bad. Secularist govts have a large head start in terms of overall death and misery. Just look at what they did in a single century.

The obvious question is what % of the govt should have religion involved with it and which part should be completely atheist.

While the US govt is self proclaimed Atheist there are strong christian values throughout it. I think in the end we cant have a purely secular or a purely religious govt. Because when you do it turns into a genocide.

Secularists will eventually lack moral character. Christians will force their will on the populace.

A balanced is needed for the issues we saw in the 20th century to not come back.

 

[Genx87]

I guess no one wants to admit that the evils of Hitlers Nazism were actually committed under the guise of Christianity, not atheism.

If you believe Maureen Farrells interpretation. Something I kind of mused at actually.

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harry Truman pointed out the danger of secular fundamentalism:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

Hey Rip, keep parroting the quotes of others, since you obviously can't spawn any independent thinking.

 

[kotss]

Hey Genx87,

So according to you "Secularists will eventually lack moral character", how do you contrive this viewpoint.
Are morals the sole onwership of only those who believe in a GOD/GOD's. I do have morals, they are
behavorial patterns that indicate wether someone is acting within the bounds of what society has
determined good or bad. But as society changes either morals change or you risk the chance of having
your moral base changed. I do not agree with all changes to accepted moral behavior. I merely make
the point that over time, accepted moral behaviors can and will change. Moral character is more derived
from the parenting rather than from faith. A person has to be at peace with themselves and their actions.
But never let responsibility for your actions fall to others. You are hosed in that situation and also very
lacking in moral strength. I tire of either side of the religion war going on in these newsposts. I am
Aethiest to the core, but I do not want anyone to give up their faith, because that is what they believe in.
When you lose what you believe in, then you lose hope, and it is a quest to get it back again. I believe in
humanity, that is what I every day try to have faith in. What really burns me, is this I have faith and I am
better than you, I do not have faith and I am better than you attitudes that are espoused by most
responders. All I say is let people believe the way they do and let others believe in what they do as long as
it does not take away fundmental rights. Forced faith in either direction is horrible and wrong. And lastly,
do not try to save me, I am saved, for I have faith in myself.

 

[racolvin]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: Zedtom
Is religious fundementalism the solution to the tragedies of the twentieth century?

nope, but rejection of secular humanism is one part of the solution.

As in Final Solution?

[/quote]

<sarcasm>yes, by killing everyone that disagrees with me.</sarcasm>
^forgeting those got me a 2 week vacation last time ^

by rejecting it as the foundation of our lives and the foundation of governmental policy. No one need die, majority just needs to rule.
[/quote]

I'm not certain if I should be alarmed or disgusted. The simple fact that there is no proof your version of "God" exists any more so than any other religion's version of "God" does not cause you concern when you make statements like that? If you were in the minority religion (pretend for a moment you were a christian-variation living in Turkey), would you want the majority to rule over you and impose its dictates on you?

It is for this and other reasons that the separation of church and state exists - since not everyone believes the same "gospel" and it exists purely in your own mind (faith) whether it is true or not, then imosing those beliefs on others is wrong in every sense of the word.

By simply looking in a phonebook today you can see that even among christians there is a massive difference of opinion as to what being a christian means and what the rules are. If you doubt me, try to count the number of different denominations of christianity that exist - you'll run out of fingers and toes. Try to get a grip on the fact that christians are in the minority when it comes to total world population and you must conclude there there is no "truth" that can be universally acknowledged. If the christians alone can't agree amongst themselves, how can it be used as a basis for government and rule of a diverse population?

Because there is no proof to religious views, a government must be concerned only with the secular - the "here and now". The government must include all its constituents of all different religions and not endorse or futher any of them. Government must keep its eyes focused on how to enable these individuals to work and live side-by-side and to keep them from killing each other over their different religous beliefs. You must be allowed to believe and worship as you will, as must I and all the others. None of our religious beliefs should be imposed on the rest because there is no proof that any one of them is more valid than the others.

By ascribing to the idea that "I'm right and it should be done this way because God tells me so" is no less insane than serial killers pleading that "God told me they were evil". It is no less maniacal than Hitler using religion for his own purposes, and it is less repressive than the Taliban. By believing that the christian majority (assuming you could agree on christian principles amongst yourselves) should rule this country, you are telling the remaining population that their beliefs are by default null and void and are to be ignored when matters of policy arise.

R

 

[Genx87]

So according to you "Secularists will eventually lack moral character", how do you contrive this viewpoint.

Have you watched the the secularists in this country? If it was upto them everything would go and nobody would have the right to question the behaviors.

Are morals the sole onwership of only those who believe in a GOD/GOD's. I do have morals, they are
behavorial patterns that indicate wether someone is acting within the bounds of what society has
determined good or bad.

Yes most morals are contrived through societies viewpoints. The viewpoints of this country for the past 200 years has been very christian. Now watch what has been happening the past 20 years with the friction between the tradionalists and the secularists in this country.

Secuarlisim stands for not doing much of anything and letting everything go. This is fine but eventually somebody is going to say I have the freedom to do this and there isnt anything you can do about it. Even if it is illegal by the old moral standard.

Do you think if you werent influenced by christian morals the morals you hold today would be the same?

But as society changes either morals change or you risk the chance of having
your moral base changed. I do not agree with all changes to accepted moral behavior. I merely make
the point that over time, accepted moral behaviors can and will change. Moral character is more derived
from the parenting rather than from faith.

Very true however we have had the our morals grinded into us by our parents. The majority of whom have christian backgrounds.

One has to ask how did man act before the creation of organized religion? How do you think we will act when organized religion falls?

I am not for forcing my beliefs on people. However I do believe secularist states in the past have act much more brutally than religious states. Both are terrible and I think a happy medium needs to be made.

 

[Zedtom]

I honestly don't know where the utopian ideal of a perfect world exists. I would love to be in a society where religious freedom was truly practiced. But we all know that organized religion is in and of itself devisive.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
While I still do believe in some form of a higher power, it still shocks me that so many people believe in Christianity and the Bible as if it is the one and only truth. In the end, science and reason will prevail and I believe that Christianity will ultimately decline in this country.

How do you expect that to happen when Science has been thrown out?

You seen the School threads where they are no longer teaching evolution that it was "Intelligent Design" by God only.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
The tragedies of the Twentieth Century were constructed upon atheism. The ideologues of fascism, Nazism, and communism believed that no force was higher than themselves or their fantastical utopian dreams.

You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

[L=Time for a history lesson]

Harvey, I think that Hitler's private expressions are a lot better indicator of his personal beliefs than what he said or wrote publically.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Tommunist
Rip - you are laughable. I've only been reading this section of the forum for a few days and I already know I shouldn't bother to take you seriously again....

T, Thanks for sharing.

All the best.

-Charlie

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
The tragedies of the Twentieth Century were constructed upon atheism. The ideologues of fascism, Nazism, and communism believed that no force was higher than themselves or their fantastical utopian dreams.

Link

WOW, and I never thought I would see such extraordinary ignorance and dishonesty as the *starting* point of a thread.

Of course they don't tell you about how the world's most horrific tragedies of all time --the Crusades, the Inquisition, both of which made Hitler's Nazi's look like a schoolyard brawl--were SPONSORED, CONDONED and CARRIED out by who? CHRISTIANS.

They also don't bother to illustrate something we see TODAY: That the most dangerous SAVAGES in the world right now, the terrorists in the middle east, are what? Atheists? Secularists? NO. They are RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS, Muslim Fundamentalists who are concerned NOT with Liberty, NOT with rights but merely with ANNIHILATING anyone who sees the world in a way different from their own.

Your little PROPAGANDA PIECE (It certainly is NOT Journalism of ANY kind) also fails to mention that it is the province of the Secularists, which encompasses those who are religious, those who are Deists AND those who are Atheists, that gave rise to LIBERTY, INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, CAPITALISM and made it POSSIBLE for us to sit here in relative peace and chatter on this message board.

You, sir are a DISHONEST FRAUD.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
The tragedies of the Twentieth Century were constructed upon atheism. The ideologues of fascism, Nazism, and communism believed that no force was higher than themselves or their fantastical utopian dreams.

Link

Oh, and while we're at it, try this on for size, Mr. Anti-Secularism boy:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

You really CAN tell you're a Christian, can't you? What, your pastor been lying to you while feeding your 5 year old some weiner?

The ESTIMATED number of Jews killed during the Holocaust is FIVE TO SIX MILLION. A huge number, to be sure, but nowhere near your TRIPLING of the figures.

Jew death count

And as I quoted above, the Jews were killed by an army commanded by a RADICAL CHRISTIAN.

Jason