The threat of godless ideologies

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

Incidentally, the Communists didn't come to power until the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, NOT 1900. Perhaps you'd consider making a donation to the

Victims of Communism Memorial Fund? I think you should donate $6 and tell everyone it was $20, because that certainly seems to be your method of operation here.

Jason

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

Incidentally, the Communists didn't come to power until the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, NOT 1900. Perhaps you'd consider making a donation to the

Victims of Communism Memorial Fund? I think you should donate $6 and tell everyone it was $20, because that certainly seems to be your method of operation here.

Jason

Okay, let's focus just on the Soviets. Between 1917 and 1987, the USSR murdered 65 million people.

How many people were killed "in the name of Jesus" over this time period? Or how about even 1 AD to the present? You can even throw in those killed by Isamists.

 

[Drift3r]

When in doubt change the the deck of cards and hope no one is looking !

 

[IndieSnob]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

Incidentally, the Communists didn't come to power until the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, NOT 1900. Perhaps you'd consider making a donation to the

Victims of Communism Memorial Fund? I think you should donate $6 and tell everyone it was $20, because that certainly seems to be your method of operation here.

Jason

Okay, let's focus just on the Soviets. Between 1917 and 1987, the USSR murdered 65 million people.

How many people were killed "in the name of Jesus" over this time period? Or how about even 1 AD to the present? You can even throw in those killed by Isamists.

You keep talking time periods here Rip, as to say that christians have come along way while seculars still continue to murder to this day. Face it, every religion has commited attrocities. I also find it sick how you cheapen every person murdered by making it christianity versus every other religion/non religion. It's just as digusting no matter what side does it. I suppose you'll thumb your nose at this as you want to continue to tout your deity and his followers as such great clean living people. Every sides sh!t stinks, even yours. To be blind to this is just being ignorant.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: IndieSnob

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

Incidentally, the Communists didn't come to power until the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, NOT 1900. Perhaps you'd consider making a donation to the

Victims of Communism Memorial Fund? I think you should donate $6 and tell everyone it was $20, because that certainly seems to be your method of operation here.

Jason

Okay, let's focus just on the Soviets. Between 1917 and 1987, the USSR murdered 65 million people.

How many people were killed "in the name of Jesus" over this time period? Or how about even 1 AD to the present? You can even throw in those killed by Isamists.

You keep talking time periods here Rip, as to say that christians have come along way while seculars still continue to murder to this day. Face it, every religion has commited attrocities. I also find it sick how you cheapen every person murdered by making it christianity versus every other religion/non religion. It's just as digusting no matter what side does it. I suppose you'll thumb your nose at this as you want to continue to tout your deity and his followers as such great clean living people. Every sides sh!t stinks, even yours. To be blind to this is just being ignorant.

Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

 

[Steeplerot]

Communism has never killed a single person -it is an idea that has never even existed in the 20th century either except in name.
Dictatorships would be who you are looking for rip.
Dictatorships are nurtured by fundamentalist idealogies. Just like your own.

You would have made a great apologist in the 20th century for one of those dictators too, your mindset is exactly what they needed.
Hey but don't cry! you might just have your chance this century too, you and your neocon buddies are off to a great start here in america!

 

[IndieSnob]

You keep talking time periods here Rip, as to say that christians have come along way while seculars still continue to murder to this day. Face it, every religion has commited attrocities. I also find it sick how you cheapen every person murdered by making it christianity versus every other religion/non religion. It's just as digusting no matter what side does it. I suppose you'll thumb your nose at this as you want to continue to tout your deity and his followers as such great clean living people. Every sides sh!t stinks, even yours. To be blind to this is just being ignorant.

Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?[/quote]


I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS ABOUT WHO HAS KILLED MORE THAN THE OTHER!

See, again you you absolutely have to compare camp a to camp b. I think if atheists only killed 1 more person throughout history then beleivers in god you would still say it's a greater evil. Again, you pull any info you can whether it's factual or not so you can cast your little religous vendetta. Is this the porpouse God gave you for being on this Earth? To continue to pull links and numbers our of your rear end so you can feel better about your belief? Are you now going to bring up links that say blacks in proportion to whites commit more crimes? It'd be the same misleading crap.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: IndieSnob

You keep talking time periods here Rip, as to say that christians have come along way while seculars still continue to murder to this day. Face it, every religion has commited attrocities. I also find it sick how you cheapen every person murdered by making it christianity versus every other religion/non religion. It's just as digusting no matter what side does it. I suppose you'll thumb your nose at this as you want to continue to tout your deity and his followers as such great clean living people. Every sides sh!t stinks, even yours. To be blind to this is just being ignorant.

Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS ABOUT WHO HAS KILLED MORE THAN THE OTHER!

See, again you you absolutely have to compare camp a to camp b. I think if atheists only killed 1 more person throughout history then beleivers in god you would still say it's a greater evil. Again, you pull any info you can whether it's factual or not so you can cast your little religous vendetta. Is this the porpouse God gave you for being on this Earth? To continue to pull links and numbers our of your rear end so you can feel better about your belief? Are you now going to bring up links that say blacks in proportion to whites commit more crimes? It'd be the same misleading crap.
[/quote]

Why can't atheists generate the same level of contempt for murder and violence committed by some of the irreligious than they can for those who claim to be relgious?

I find that interesting.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Genx87

One has to ask how did man act before the creation of organized religion? How do you think we will act when organized religion falls?

This made me think about the primitive tribal peoples that I think can still be found in the amazon region. I think I saw some tv show about them and how they managed to remain isolated from modern civilization all this time. I don't remember all the details but I think these tribal people practiced some form of shamanism or whatever. The point is they we're not running around killing themselves in the absence of 'organized religion'. They still had rules and accepted/unaccepted behavior.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Where did the 110,000,000 figure come from? Can someone give me a link please.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Why can't atheists generate the same level of contempt for murder and violence committed by some of the irreligious than they can for those who claim to be relgious?

Because as a general rule, the irreligious do not run around murdering people IN THE NAME OF A GOD OR GODS. Many religious people HAVE done this throughout history. Furthermore, the religious often claim to occupy a higher moral plane than the irrelgious, BUT they commit the same atrocities. It is this santimonious, hypocritical attitude (of many religious people) that is note-worthy. That is why people comment. No-one likes a hypocrite.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Interesting article. Religion in its most primitive definition is a belief in something. Everyone has some kind of a blief in some way of thinking or God or religious affiliation, theology, or idealogy.

One precept I recall is the teaching about God and how you can only serve one God. For some people it may be their car or money or lifting weights or their body or exercise or their immaculat yard work. What men do shows you where their heart is.

"A belief in something" is not an adequate definition of religion. A reasonable definition of religion will include reference to the acknowledgement or worship of a supernatural element (god, gods, spirits, whatever).

 

[IndieSnob]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: IndieSnob

You keep talking time periods here Rip, as to say that christians have come along way while seculars still continue to murder to this day. Face it, every religion has commited attrocities. I also find it sick how you cheapen every person murdered by making it christianity versus every other religion/non religion. It's just as digusting no matter what side does it. I suppose you'll thumb your nose at this as you want to continue to tout your deity and his followers as such great clean living people. Every sides sh!t stinks, even yours. To be blind to this is just being ignorant.

Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS ABOUT WHO HAS KILLED MORE THAN THE OTHER!

See, again you you absolutely have to compare camp a to camp b. I think if atheists only killed 1 more person throughout history then beleivers in god you would still say it's a greater evil. Again, you pull any info you can whether it's factual or not so you can cast your little religous vendetta. Is this the porpouse God gave you for being on this Earth? To continue to pull links and numbers our of your rear end so you can feel better about your belief? Are you now going to bring up links that say blacks in proportion to whites commit more crimes? It'd be the same misleading crap.

Why can't atheists generate the same level of contempt for murder and violence committed by some of the irreligious than they can for those who claim to be relgious?

I find that interesting.[/quote]



Hmm, maybe that's why I said both are deplorable. Sometimes I feel like I'm screaming at a wall.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Riprorin
You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

Total estimated civilian and military casualties from WWII range from 60-80 million people. Almost 30 million of them concentrated on the Eastern front. The other half in Asia, Africa, and Western Europe.

This doesnt even include communist takeovers in China,SE Asia,Eastern Europe postwar where millions of people are laying in mass graves or simply vanished.

Make no mistake about it. Eventhough religious fundamentalism is bad. Secularist govts have a large head start in terms of overall death and misery. Just look at what they did in a single century.

Hang on a minute, how are you coming to that conclusion? I don't see how you could reasonably say 60-80 million dead in WWII is down to "secular governments". I also wonder about this narrow focus on religious versus secular states. A more pertinent issue IMO is whether the states in question are totalitarian in nature, versus domocratically elected governments.

Originally posted by: Genx87
The obvious question is what % of the govt should have religion involved with it and which part should be completely atheist.

While the US govt is self proclaimed Atheist there are strong christian values throughout it. I think in the end we cant have a purely secular or a purely religious govt. Because when you do it turns into a genocide.

Secularists will eventually lack moral character. Christians will force their will on the populace.

A balanced is needed for the issues we saw in the 20th century to not come back.

No, a "balanced" approach is not needed. State and Church must remain separate, for the survival of both Chruch and State.

Secularists do not inevitably "lack moral character". Religion is not required for morality.

The problem with this kind of SILLY analysis - comparing death counts under 'religious' and 'non religious' states - is that there are important factors completely ignored. For example, is the state totalitarian in nature?

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Genx87

I guess no one wants to admit that the evils of Hitlers Nazism were actually committed under the guise of Christianity, not atheism.

If you believe Maureen Farrells interpretation. Something I kind of mused at actually.

Well, she is not the only person who has investigated, documented the links between Christianity and the rise of the Nazis.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: racolvin
By ascribing to the idea that "I'm right and it should be done this way because God tells me so" is no less insane than serial killers pleading that "God told me they were evil". It is no less maniacal than Hitler using religion for his own purposes, and it is less repressive than the Taliban. By believing that the christian majority (assuming you could agree on christian principles amongst yourselves) should rule this country, you are telling the remaining population that their beliefs are by default null and void and are to be ignored when matters of policy arise.
R

This is one reason I'd oppose a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage; it is essentially writing a religious position into a constitution.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Secuarlisim stands for not doing much of anything and letting everything go.

Bullsh1t.

Originally posted by: Genx87
I am not for forcing my beliefs on people. However I do believe secularist states in the past have act much more brutally than religious states. Both are terrible and I think a happy medium needs to be made.

What could be more brutal than the wholesale gassing to death of Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, mentally disabled, and gypsies?

(No, the Germany under the Nazis was not a secular state.)

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
The tragedies of the Twentieth Century were constructed upon atheism. The ideologues of fascism, Nazism, and communism believed that no force was higher than themselves or their fantastical utopian dreams.

You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

[L=Time for a history lesson]

Harvey, I think that Hitler's private expressions are a lot better indicator of his personal beliefs than what he said or wrote publically.

Hitler used Christianity as a political tool, and legions of Christians blindly followed him into disaster. Don't blame Hitler, blame the losers who voted him into power, blame the CHRISTIAN masses who actually voted away their democracy, voted themselves a virtual dictatorship. Blame the CHRISTIAN Church officals in Germany who were enthusiatic in their support of Hitler. Blame the Vatican, which never opposed Hitler's rise, despite being in a position to do so. Whether Hitler himself was privately Christian is kind of irrelevant. A population of people who are unable to think critically, unable to think for themselves, and have been trained by their religion to blindly obey those in positions of authority, is a RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Your little PROPAGANDA PIECE (It certainly is NOT Journalism of ANY kind) also fails to mention that it is the province of the Secularists, which encompasses those who are religious, those who are Deists AND those who are Atheists, that gave rise to LIBERTY, INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, CAPITALISM and made it POSSIBLE for us to sit here in relative peace and chatter on this message board.

You, sir are a DISHONEST FRAUD.

Jason

:thumbsup:

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
The tragedies of the Twentieth Century were constructed upon atheism. The ideologues of fascism, Nazism, and communism believed that no force was higher than themselves or their fantastical utopian dreams.

Link

Oh, and while we're at it, try this on for size, Mr. Anti-Secularism boy:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Jason

Worth repeating.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Communism has never killed a single person -it is an idea that has never even existed in the 20th century either except in name.
Dictatorships would be who you are looking for rip.
Dictatorships are nurtured by fundamentalist idealogies. Just like your own.

Yes! By focussing on religion versus no religion, rip is drawing attention away from the more RELEVANT, IMPORTANT consideration, which is the totalitarian nature of the governments in question (i.e., dictatorships).

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

No, Man is evil. If given the means those who killed in the name of religion would have killed many more. Fortunately they didn't have the means to be more efficient with their genocides.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harry Truman pointed out the danger of secular fundamentalism:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

And WHY would you imageine (for it IS imagination alone that guides you) that the Author of the Bill of Rights, JAMES MADISON, who was NOT a regular churchgoer, who had little to nothing positive to say about religion, who did NOT ask for religious service at his deathbed...was inspired by the Bible?

Have you ever READ the Bible? It is NOT a book about Natural Rights theory. Madison was an Individual Rights advocate from the word go.

Jason

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

No, Man is evil. If given the means those who killed in the name of religion would have killed many more. Fortunately they didn't have the means to be more efficient with their genocides.

im going to have to agree with red. your arbitrary body count does nothing but make you feel like you can pin the blame for human suffering on a lack of religious belief. i dont know what makes you think that these numbers are accurate or (more importantly) meaningful. human suffering is caused by humans.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harry Truman pointed out the danger of secular fundamentalism:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

And WHY would you imageine (for it IS imagination alone that guides you) that the Author of the Bill of Rights, JAMES MADISON, who was NOT a regular churchgoer, who had little to nothing positive to say about religion, who did NOT ask for religious service at his deathbed...was inspired by the Bible?

Have you ever READ the Bible? It is NOT a book about Natural Rights theory. Madison was an Individual Rights advocate from the word go.

Jason

Was Madison responsible for the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights? Definitely not. In fact, during the Constitutional Convention, it was Virginian George Mason that advocated that a Bill of Rights be added to the Constitution, but the other Virginians at the Convention - including James Madison - opposed any Bill of Rights and their position prevailed. Consequently, George Mason, Elbridge Gerry, Edmund Randolph, and others at the Convention refused to sign the new Constitution because of their fear of insufficiently bridled federal power.

When the Constitution was considered for ratification, the reports from June 2 through June 25, 1788, make clear that in Virginia, Patrick Henry, George Mason, and Edmund Randolph led the fight for the Bill of Rights, again over James Madison?s opposition. [21] Henry?s passionate speeches of June 5 and June 7 resulted in Virginia?s motion that a Bill of Rights be added to the federal Constitution; and on June 25, the Virginia Convention selected George Mason to chair a committee to prepare a proposed Bill of Rights, [22] with Patrick Henry and John Randolph as members. [23] Mason incorporated Henry?s arguments as the basis of Virginia?s proposal on religious liberty. [24]

Although Madison had opposed a Bill of Rights, he understood the grim political reality that without one, it was unlikely the new Constitution would receive widespread public acceptance. [25] Consequently, he withdrew his opposition, and in the federal House of Representatives he introduced his own versions of the amendments offered by his State.

Very little of Madison?s proposed religious wording made it into the final version of the First Amendment; and even a cursory examination of the Annals of Congress surrounding the formation of that Amendment quickly reveals the influence of Fisher Ames and Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, Samuel Livermore of New Hampshire, John Vining of Delaware, Daniel Carroll and Charles Carroll of Maryland, Benjamin Huntington, Roger Sherman, and Oliver Ellsworth of Connecticut, William Paterson of New Jersey, and others on that Amendment. [26]

The failure to rely on Founders other than Madison seems to imply that no other Founders were qualified to address First Amendment issues or that there exists no pertinent recorded statements from the other Founders. Both implications are wrong: numerous Founders played pivotal roles; and thousands of their writings do exist.

Link