This is ridiculous!

[ElFenix]

850,000 page faults in 20 minutes. who the fack designed this memory system?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Amused
Yep. The few times I have been guilted into running an AV, it never hit on anything.
Just as with spyware, if you get a virus it's because of USER ERROR.
My machines have never had spyware or a virus.

As amazing as it sounds, I agree.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Dopefiend
Oh, don't make me laugh, child. "Acquire better email skills"? Laughable.
Ever heard the saying "prevention is better than cure"?

Yes, which is precisely why proper computer procedures, actually give you better, more-complete protection than any run-time AV program running in the background ever could, since they are constantly in a state of being outdated, and behind-the-curve, in terms of the most virulent malware. But taking proper precautions, will prevent *any* virulent malware from even getting onto your machine.

Originally posted by: Dopefiend
Besides, how do you know that you haven't a trojan lurking somewhere on your machine dormant?

How do you know that you don't have a zero-day virus on your machine, that you AV definitions don't cover yet? AV software is kind of like getting flu shots. Not getting near anyone with the flu, and keeping your bodies auto-immune response levels at peak, are far better options. (I don't get flu shots either.)

Originally posted by: Dopefiend
You speak of ignorance, which is amusingly ironic- ignorance must be bliss for you :laugh:

Hmm. Ditto?

 

[eLiu]

Originally posted by: Bigsm00th

Originally posted by: Dopefiend

Originally posted by: Bigsm00th
dude you have a lot of processes. people have way too much running on their computers at once.

edit: i have 21 processes, and that includes word, excel, outlook, and minesweeper.

WTF are you smoking? 36 processes is nothing. I have Opera, WS-FTP and Foobar open, and I'm at 53 processes :roll:

easy there...no need to be that abrasive when you are simply expression your own opinion. :roll:

and its still a lot of processes. what on earth do you have open? i do a lot of stuff on my computer, but no human can actively use more than 9-10 programs constantly. why would you need to run 2 instances of mspaint for more than a few seconds? edit: im talking about at home, not at work. i dont see why you need to have 5 instances of something open when you are just surfing the web and messing around. if you can provide a good enough example i will change my opinion.

i have nothing running in the background either. unless you guys are worried about spyware/viruses, then i dont see the point in running that either. i have 14 processes running when i have nothing open.

of course, i may use 40-50 if i absolutely needed to, but i just dont see what anyone would be doing at home on a saturday that needed 50 processes.

How'd you get it down to 14? I don't know what I can/can't shut down :/

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Dopefiend
Really. I'm sorry, you may be an Elite member but saying that receiving a virus is user error is either uninformed or stupid.
I suggest you go and read about the Blaster virus, and read about it's method of attack. No firewall, no antivirus, and one missed Windows Update and you're infected.

Blaster is a network worm. But an anti-virus is not a firewall. I would never recommend running on the open internet without a firewall, no moreso than recommending running around an infection ward at a hospital, with gaping open wounds on your skin. Because that's what it's like, to be on the public internet, without a firewall.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Amused
Missing an update is user error.
I'm behind a router. If I wasn't I would use a firewall. A firewall is not an AV.
I reissue my challange:
Send me to one website that puts spyware or a virus on my machine without my permission.
To date, no one has been able to do this.
Virus infection and spyware infections are caused by carelessness and user error. Period.

I would add "continuing to use known-buggy software that is maliciously exploitable" to that list, although that is also "user error". (I consider the continued use of IE/OE likewise to be "user error".)

The thing is, proper procedure and careful software selection, can for the most part eliminate risk. Continuing to knowingly use buggy software, and engaging in risky activities, places you at risk, and running a real-time AV, can only serve to mitigate those risks, not eliminate them.

Btw, defense in depth is good, I would actually suggest running a software firewall on the host machine, in addition to the router. If you don't, it is remotely possible for a web site to link to content on a non-standard port, and the router will allow it becuase it's an outbound request, but there are some scenarios where in conjunction with a suitably maliciously-designed remote host, that it can then send packets back, that will pass through the router (in some cases), and be able to hit the host machine. The router thinks that those packets are solicited return packets due to the outbound connection request, but they have been re-crafted to be unsolicited malicious packets. Whether those packets can actually do any real damage to the local host or not is another question, although it's not inconcievable in some cases. The router's firmware and capability have a lot to do with this too. Not to mention, if due to some software bug (exploit), some trojan malware/rootkit does get installed locally, you would never detect it with only a router. You at least have some chance of detecting it with a local software firewall. (If the rootkit doesn't disable/bypass it, which is possible in some cases.)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Phil

Originally posted by: myusername

Originally posted by: Dopefiend
However, let's also assume that a virus is created that exploits a weakness in Windows that hasn't been patched yet. What are you going to do?

You're going to catch it, because there are no virus def's yet?

Heuristics.

And yet, there are no commercial AV packages on the market sold to end-users, that have "heuristics" capabilities in them worth anything. So that's not really a valid argument. vmyths.com has an article speculating that the AV companies do have that sort of technology, but they keep it in-house only, to aid them in automated detection of new strains, and generation of definition files. The biggest problem with heuristics is the sensitivity level. In order to not miss potential infections, you have to crank up the sensitivity, which results in too many false-positives for most end-users to deal with. You would need a trained tech to interpret the results in most cases. So that's another reason that heuristics don't really work well for an end-user product.

The best current solution, appears to be application-level API sandboxing, sort of an "API firewall" for apps. Both Panda and Tiny Software have a commercial end-user offering in that space, and there are several others working on them. That still requires a technical user to intepret the results and decide what to allow and what to deny, which isn't always easy.

 

[Mark R]

850,000 page faults in 20 minutes. who the fack designed this memory system?

Not all page faults are hitting the page file. Windows can optimise file loading by 'mapping' files. Instead of loading the whole file into RAM when it is opened, windows has the ability to simply 'map' the file on the HD into virtual memory. This means that the file appears to be loaded in, but when part of it is accessed, it generates a page fault causing the relevant part of the file to be loaded in. Since the VM manger can bypass the file cache it reduces CPU and memory overhead.

Here's a screenshot of my system when I'm stressing it out. OMGWTFPAGEFAULT. Note how cidaemon has over 20 million pagefaults yet only uses 600 k. It's part of 'indexing service' and regularly scans the files on the HDD for indexing. It uses file mapping to load the files as efficiently as possible (.doc files can contain huge amounts of non-indexable data like images, mapping avoids having to load these unusable areas).

OTOH my 'WindowsApplication' probably has generated pagefile hits - mainly because it's working with a huge dataset, and needs access to the huge chunks of it at a time.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Mark R

850,000 page faults in 20 minutes. who the fack designed this memory system?

Not all page faults are hitting the page file. Windows can optimise file loading by 'mapping' files. Instead of loading the whole file into RAM when it is opened, windows has the ability to simply 'map' the file on the HD into virtual memory. This means that the file appears to be loaded in, but when part of it is accessed, it generates a page fault causing the relevant part of the file to be loaded in. Since the VM manger can bypass the file cache it reduces CPU and memory overhead.

Here's a screenshot of my system when I'm stressing it out. OMGWTFPAGEFAULT. Note how cidaemon has over 20 million pagefaults yet only uses 600 k. It's part of 'indexing service' and regularly scans the files on the HDD for indexing. It uses file mapping to load the files as efficiently as possible (.doc files can contain huge amounts of non-indexable data like images, mapping avoids having to load these unusable areas).

OTOH my 'WindowsApplication' probably has generated pagefile hits - mainly because it's working with a huge dataset, and needs access to the huge chunks of it at a time.

so it is still hitting the hard drive? that is my main concern. i'd rather it not do that.

 

[VirtualLarry]

As, I believe, Slash pointed out in a thread in OS - not all page faults are "hard" page-faults, which result in actual disk access requests. Some are "soft" page-faults, that simply result in that page, already residing in physical RAM, being mapped into that process's address space. This is much faster than, and does not require, a disk access. But both are accounted for as "page faults".

 

[Mark R]

That's right. If a program loads a DLL already in use by another program or windows, that program will generate page faults the first time it accesses that DLL. However, because the data is already in RAM there is minimal overhead.

There's another way too - Windows has an option to 'reserve' memory for use by a program. E.g. a program can ask for 100 MB that it *might* need, but doesn't need immediately. In this case, this memory nominally belongs to the program, but it doesn't actually physically exist. If the program accesses it, a page fault will be generated, and the program then has the option to 'commit' the memory (i.e. request that real storage be provided). This technique avoids the program hogging all the memory on a system, but allows it to get guaranteed access to all the memory it needs - if it allocated the memory as it needed it, there's always the risk that the pagefile will get full, and that the program won't get the memory and will have to quit.

 

[cavemanmoron]

Originally posted by: mobobuff

Originally posted by: cavemanmoron

If he's running Windows 9x/ME his MSPaint might not support .JPEG by default.

arggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

It's okay! Just go here and they'll set you right.

Or you could go to OldVersion.com and download IrfanView, a very nice image editing/saving program.

After you install Microsoft Office 2000 and have chosen to install all of the graphics filters, you may not see the following filters in the Save as type list in Microsoft Paint./

Crap now I need to install office??????

I never use it,LOL.[/quote]

Oops, that help file wasn't what I thought it was. Just download IrfanView. It's a very small and light package.
[/quote]


Thanks for the help!!
http://fox302.com/userdata/cavemanmoron/files/cavemanmoron/Clipboard01jpg.jpg

 

[tami]

my firefox is currently at 202k.

 

[imported_Hi]

damn yours sucks

this is my average

 

[tami]

Originally posted by: Hi
damn yours sucks

this is my average

yea mine sucks.

i don't have much open besides ATOT, gmail, hotmail, and yahoo mail. not sure what's up with the memory leak.

 

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: Phil

Originally posted by: Bigsm00th
dude you have a lot of processes. people have way too much running on their computers at once.

edit: i have 21 processes, and that includes word, excel, outlook, and minesweeper.

WTF are you smoking? 36 processes is nothing. I have Opera, WS-FTP and Foobar open, and I'm at 53 processes :roll:

54 here

 

[cavemanmoron]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: cavemanmoron

Originally posted by: mobobuff
If he's running Windows 9x/ME his MSPaint might not support .JPEG by default.

arggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

You've GOT to be kidding me!



Come on, join the real world and get XP.

OK I just upgraded to XP Pro,again,
I hope I don't end up formatting again.

So far,after installing SP2 it seems ok.


Thanks for the help.

 

[Baked]

Heh, serves you right for using IE.