Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

[emperus]

What do you mean by "rigged"? That its a racist pro-white system ? Asians are not white and do fine, as a group they are more successful than white people are in this country.

Also how is a test unfair, if X person wants to become a Doctor then study for it, the fact that some groups still fail in this nation despite AA and its many bonuses is pretty sad. Comparing Black people to Asians is valid since it throws away the concept that racism is the root cause of certain groups failing...And puts the blame on them/their culture/whatever the hell else the problem is.

I mean you have made so many assumptions in this argument.

1.)Prove your point on Asians. I don't believe that. Who was the last asain president? Presidential candidate? Senator?
2.) Why are you assuming Asians have the same amount of racism directed at them as blacks?
3.) Were Asians ever enslaved the way blacks were?
4.) What is the prevailing stereotype of Asians? Is it one of Primitives?

I mean rigged as in, black people have been bound and shackled for a long time. When non-blacks were building wealth, educating their families, blacks were being prevented from even going to college. Now, we are arguing the all the wealth that was built is not a disadvantage to those without. Here is an example. I have a friend who is finishing B-school. He's very smart and worked in Private equity before hand. He wanted an internship at this firm. They were going to hire 1 intern if that and it was very competitive. A close friend of mine is a VP there. I called him and introduced him. He got the internship. How many of those calls are made every day, pushing someone ahead of others? And how many black people are in the position to take those calls?. It's a clear disadvantage.

It's not primarily about studying for the test, it's about the extras. Can you pay 1000 dollars for SAT prep, MCAT prep, LSAT prep. Or pay a coach to help you on your college essay? Can you pay a tutor $50/hour to tutor you in chem or pay a violin instructor or afford to buy a weekly subscription of the New Yorker or the Wall Street Journal so your kid can read and be exposed. Wealth is an advantage.

 

[xj0hnx]

I asked you a question and it's kind of telling you won't answer it. I'm trying to narrow your argument. I'm not sure if you are arguing affirmative action is bad because there's no discrimination anymore or even if there were discrimination it would be bad. So, let me ask you again, if racism were still prevalent would you support Affirmative action.

Your question is stupid, it got what it deserves, but s you are crystal clear ...NO I would not support fighting racism with ...racism.

You have the wrong person. I think you fail to understand, we can bot address Racism without use it as a crutch. Black people success despite racism. In real life my friend, everyone can tell your black.

It is used as a crutch. I hate to break it to you, but just being white doesn't mean that you are going to be a success, and that the world is laid out for you. In real life how you perform is what everyone can see. There's a white dude, hangs out at the intersection down the street with a sign asking for change, there's a black dude on the other corner across the way, two blocks down there's a black guy standing out all day in a Master Chief costume for a video game store in the same shopping center as a accounting firm owned by a black dude, who has to clean up the beer bottle and cigarette butts from the white junkies that hang there at night. Look around you guy, success and failure are fucking color blind.

My argument is that you're using you sister to make a point. why not just talk to her and you can get a more informed view to make your point on.

I'm not using her for anything other than to shoot holes in your bullshit. I may be white, but in my town I am a minority, and that fact was made known to me many times growing up. Dwelling on this shit keeps us in the mud and that doesn't do anyone any good. I honestly don't know what to tell you, if someone's opinion matters that much to you, but the fact is that black, white, red or yellow life is what YOU make it, and that fact is evidenced by success and failure for all races.

 

[Emos]

I mean rigged as in, black people have been bound and shackled for a long time. When non-blacks were building wealth, educating their families, blacks were being prevented from even going to college. Now, we are arguing the all the wealth that was built is not a disadvantage to those without. Here is an example. I have a friend who is finishing B-school. He's very smart and worked in Private equity before hand. He wanted an internship at this firm. They were going to hire 1 intern if that and it was very competitive. A close friend of mine is a VP there. I called him and introduced him. He got the internship. How many of those calls are made every day, pushing someone ahead of others? And how many black people are in the position to take those calls?. It's a clear disadvantage.

It's not primarily about studying for the test, it's about the extras. Can you pay 1000 dollars for SAT prep, MCAT prep, LSAT prep. Or pay a coach to help you on your college essay? Can you pay a tutor $50/hour to tutor you in chem or pay a violin instructor or afford to buy a weekly subscription of the New Yorker or the Wall Street Journal so your kid can read. Wealth is an advantage.

Yeah I remember hearing a response to the phrase " give a man a fish he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish he eat for a lifetime"...has anybody bothered to look to see if there is equal access to the pond? Perhaps one pond is well stocked with fish and another is polluted with nothing alive in it. Of course the well stocked ponds have an admission charge

 

[xj0hnx]

Yeah I remember hearing a response to the phrase " give a man a fish he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish he eat for a lifetime"...has anybody bothered to look to see if there is equal access to the pond? Perhaps one pond is well stocked with fish and another is polluted with nothing alive in it. Of course the well stocked ponds have an admission charge

So do you think that a white, Asian or Mexican that lives in the inner city has more access than a their black neighbor? Does the black kid that goes to the country club school have less access than the other kids?

 

[nehalem256]

I mean you have made so many assumptions in this argument.

1.)Prove your point on Asians. I don't believe that. Who was the last asain president? Presidential candidate? Senator?
2.) Why are you assuming Asians have the same amount of racism directed at them as blacks?
3.) Were Asians ever enslaved the way blacks were?
4.) What is the prevailing stereotype of Asians? Is it one of Primitives?

I mean rigged as in, black people have been bound and shackled for a long time. When non-blacks were building wealth, educating their families, blacks were being prevented from even going to college. Now, we are arguing the all the wealth that was built is not a disadvantage to those without. Here is an example. I have a friend who is finishing B-school. He's very smart and worked in Private equity before hand. He wanted an internship at this firm. They were going to hire 1 intern if that and it was very competitive. A close friend of mine is a VP there. I called him and introduced him. He got the internship. How many of those calls are made every day, pushing someone ahead of others? And how many black people are in the position to take those calls?. It's a clear disadvantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#Race

Says it all I think.

And why does Private Equity internships have to do with college admissions?

It's not primarily about studying for the test, it's about the extras. Can you pay 1000 dollars for SAT prep, MCAT prep, LSAT prep. Or pay a coach to help you on your college essay? Can you pay a tutor $50/hour to tutor you in chem or pay a violin instructor or afford to buy a weekly subscription of the New Yorker or the Wall Street Journal so your kid can read and be exposed. Wealth is an advantage.

I never had any SAT/ACT prep courses or chem tutors and I turned out fine.

Note the usage of the word wealth not race.

 

[Munky]

It's not primarily about studying for the test, it's about the extras. Can you pay 1000 dollars for SAT prep, MCAT prep, LSAT prep. Or pay a coach to help you on your college essay? Can you pay a tutor $50/hour to tutor you in chem or pay a violin instructor or afford to buy a weekly subscription of the New Yorker or the Wall Street Journal so your kid can read and be exposed. Wealth is an advantage.

Who says you're entitled to the extras? I did just fine on the SAT and got into college without paying for private tutoring. Many professional musicians never took music lessons. Quit using BS excuses for people's laziness.

Wealth is an advantage, and that's one reason why people put actual effort into obtaining it. Then some lazyass who barely gave a thought about his future comes by and claims "Waaah! You got money and I don't! Life's not fair!"

 

[Emos]

So do you think that a white, Asian or Mexican that lives in the inner city has more access than a their black neighbor? Does the black kid that goes to the country club school have less access than the other kids?

I am simply trying to look at it from a different perspective, I do feel its mostly a socio-economic issue at this point. What emperius is trying to explain if I'm not mistaken is that the grave injustices of the past are really not that long ago and that it can take a while for institutions that were held down in the past to catch up.

 

[emperus]

I am simply trying to look at it from a different perspective, I do feel its mostly a socio-economic issue at this point. What emperius is trying to explain if I'm not mistaken is that the grave injustices of the past are really not that long ago and that it can take a while for institutions that were held down in the past to catch up.

You're right.

A race was started. African Americans were held back at the starting line and now people are wondering why African Americans are so far behind in the race.

 

[hal2kilo]

I am simply trying to look at it from a different perspective, I do feel its mostly a socio-economic issue at this point. What emperius is trying to explain if I'm not mistaken is that the grave injustices of the past are really not that long ago and that it can take a while for institutions that were held down in the past to catch up.

You guys just didn't get the memo. Racism is over and been banned in this country for many years now. No further need for AA.

 

[SheHateMe]

I am simply trying to look at it from a different perspective, I do feel its mostly a socio-economic issue at this point. What emperius is trying to explain if I'm not mistaken is that the grave injustices of the past are really not that long ago and that it can take a while for institutions that were held down in the past to catch up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lynch_speech


This is, in my opinion, the number one thing that is oppressing blacks right now.

You can see William Lynch methodology working in a number of ways

1) The value of lighter skin being higher than that of darker skin
2) Separation of the black family
3) The inability or unwillingness blacks have for supporting each other

etc..

IMHO, Most of the black population still suffers from this. Some of us have woken up.

You guys just didn't get the memo. Racism is over and been banned in this country for many years now.

Nope, not at all. Racism is frown upon, it is not banned...nor is it absent from America today.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Yeah I remember hearing a response to the phrase " give a man a fish he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish he eat for a lifetime"...has anybody bothered to look to see if there is equal access to the pond? Perhaps one pond is well stocked with fish and another is polluted with nothing alive in it. Of course the well stocked ponds have an admission charge

the other ponds also have people doing the fishing for them; allowing the ignorant to line up at the dock for the handout.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You're right.

A race was started. African Americans were held back at the starting line and now people are wondering why African Americans are so far behind in the race.

Because instead on running the race and catching up with the slow pokes; they stopped and complained that they started behind.

 

[xj0hnx]

I am simply trying to look at it from a different perspective, I do feel its mostly a socio-economic issue at this point. What emperius is trying to explain if I'm not mistaken is that the grave injustices of the past are really not that long ago and that it can take a while for institutions that were held down in the past to catch up.

They weren't that long ago if one doesn't want them to have been. No living American was a slave, or owned slaves, and every generation we get further from even the 50's and 60's, but those recent injustices are more often kept alive by those claiming to be victimized by them. By the time my son is my age no one that was forced to drink from a different water fountain in this country will be alive, and no one that forced someone to drink at a different water fountain will be either. The only way we are going to move passed it ...is to move passed it. Like I said before, there are black people succeeding at every single level in our society to include the President, Generals, industry leaders, and business men. Does racism exist, most definitely, is it ever going to go away, no, is it stopping people from achieving success? Only if they let it.

 

[xj0hnx]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lynch_speech


This is, in my opinion, the number one thing that is oppressing blacks right now.

You can see William Lynch methodology working in a number of ways

1) The value of lighter skin being higher than that of darker skin
2) Separation of the black family
3) The inability or unwillingness blacks have for supporting each other

etc..

IMHO, Most of the black population still suffers from this. Some of us have woken up.

You do realize that is more than likely a made up "document"?

 

[nehalem256]

You're right.

A race was started. African Americans were held back at the starting line and now people are wondering why African Americans are so far behind in the race.

And at the time when African Americans were being held back their contemporary Asians were still working rice paddies in Vietnam, or sitting in an internment camp.

Does not seem to have stopped them.

 

[emperus]

Because instead on running the race and catching up with the slow pokes; they stopped and complained that they started behind.

That is exactly the reason we have a black president. You are so brilliant.

 

[peonyu]

And at the time when African Americans were being held back their contemporary Asians were still working rice paddies in Vietnam, or sitting in an internment camp.

Does not seem to have stopped them.

Asian families also tend to include a Father, black kids are born 70% of the time to a single mother. But that puts the blame back on the Black community and not on "da white man", so folks will ignore that one. A stable family helps the children far more often than it hurts them of course [as many graphs can show via google and fbi statistics].

Actually the only answer for black failure from black leaders in the US is "blame da white man", so its really a meme at this point.

 

[xj0hnx]

Asian families also tend to include a Father, black kids are born 70% of the time to a single mother. But that puts the blame back on the Black community and not on "da white man", so folks will ignore that one. A stable family helps the children far more often than it hurts them of course [as many graphs can show via google and fbi statistics].

Actually the only answer for black failure in the US is "blame da white man", so its really a meme at this point.

You're forgetting SheHateMe's link ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lynch_speech

lol

 

[SheHateMe]

You do realize that is more than likely a made up "document"?

mmkay.

 

[Svnla]

Asian families also tend to include a Father, black kids are born 70% of the time to a single mother. But that puts the blame back on the Black community and not on "da white man", so folks will ignore that one. A stable family helps the children far more often than it hurts them of course [as many graphs can show via google and fbi statistics].

Actually the only answer for black failure from black leaders in the US is "blame da white man", so its really a meme at this point.

May I add a few more things?

It is well know that Asians put strong believe in do well in school, not just average to pass it. Asians don't gang up to beat up other students or make fun of those are trying to do well in school as "acting white, sold out, Uncle Tom, wannabe crackers, don't wanna keep it real, etc.".

I remember the old saying "You can get a horse to the water but you can not make it drinks it unless it wants to". So true.

 

[SheHateMe]

Lots of hasty generalization going on in this thread right now.

 

[Geosurface]

SheHateMe,

Since you mentioned CounterStrike and since I thought it might interest and surprise you, you should know that I've played since 1999 and the number of times I've shouted down someone for saying the N word on there or "Jew" as an insult is countless.

The number of times I've bitched over ventrilo etc to my friend I played with a lot in our heyday about the number of "little racist pieces of shit on this server" (almost every server) in CS, is mind boggling.

The number of times I made the same complaint about opponents in StarCraft, Diablo, Ultima Online, or countless games over the years... staggering.

I remember one time I was with two guys in World of WarCraft from the guild PALS 4 LIFE (Leeroy Jenkins' guild, I played on that same server when I played) and they tried to start a summon of another guild mate of theirs, and needed my click to complete it, but the summon had a macro about "help me summon this lazy N-word" I told them they'd not be getting my help with the summon, that I hated their stupid racist guild, and then I left the group and rode off.

Their guild was quite racist actually, and if you ever watched the Leeroy Jenkins video and paid close attention to the stereotypes and what they were saying, the video itself was quite racist against blacks. I tried to alert people to this on a few occasions. It helped that I had had direct run ins with the guild and knew them to be racists.

So, perhaps my outlook on these issues is not as simply categorized as you think.

I won't deny that I have been undergoing a recent transformation in my views on things, political things... race as well, but that transformation hasn't involved becoming friendly toward mean-spirited idiots, or crass, cruel insults.

I've merely started to accept certain realities. That's all.

 

[peonyu]

May I add a few more things?

It is well know that Asians put strong believe in do well in school, not just average to pass it. Asians don't gang up to beat up other students or make fun of those are trying to do well in school as "acting white, sold out, Uncle Tom, wannabe crackers, don't wanna keep it real, etc.".

I remember the old saying "You can get a horse to the water but you can not make it drinks it unless it wants to". So true.

Ive know black people who were "uncle toms" in the eyes of alot of black folks [not all but many], and funny enough being a Uncle tom is always = being smart, studying. Its really jealousy if you ask me, the Uncle Toms make 100k+ a year now.

 

[waggy]

Ive know black people who were "uncle toms" in the eyes of alot of black folks [not all but many], and funny enough being a Uncle tom is always = being smart, studying. Its really jealousy if you ask me, the Uncle Toms make 100k+ a year now.

yeap.

My family is mixed. my uncle is black and i have 3 step siblings that are black.

they are all regarded as (well all but one) as "uncle toms' why? they are all college educated, smart and have good jobs.

One will sit and call them "uncle tom" and laugh at them. all teh while she is on welfare with 2 kids and out parting (me and wife almost adopted her kid a while ago. but i just can't raise another kid. 2 adopted and 2 mine? to much work) and living/talking like she was raised in the ghetto and not a small country town.

 

[SheHateMe]

SheHateMe,

Since you mentioned CounterStrike and since I thought it might interest and surprise you, you should know that I've played since 1999 and the number of times I've shouted down someone for saying the N word on there or "Jew" as an insult is countless.

The number of times I've bitched over ventrilo etc to my friend I played with a lot in our heyday about the number of "little racist pieces of shit on this server" (almost every server) in CS, is mind boggling.

The number of times I made the same complaint about opponents in StarCraft, Diablo, Ultima Online, or countless games over the years... staggering.

I remember one time I was with two guys in World of WarCraft from the guild PALS 4 LIFE (Leeroy Jenkins' guild, I played on that same server when I played) and they tried to start a summon of another guild mate of theirs, and needed my click to complete it, but the summon had a macro about "help me summon this lazy N-word" I told them they'd not be getting my help with the summon, that I hated their stupid racist guild, and then I left the group and rode off.

Their guild was quite racist actually, and if you ever watched the Leeroy Jenkins video and paid close attention to the stereotypes and what they were saying, the video itself was quite racist against blacks. I tried to alert people to this on a few occasions. It helped that I had had direct run ins with the guild and knew them to be racists.

So, perhaps my outlook on these issues is not as simply categorized as you think.

I won't deny that I have been undergoing a recent transformation in my views on things, political things... race as well, but that transformation hasn't involved becoming friendly toward mean-spirited idiots, or crass, cruel insults.

I've merely started to accept certain realities. That's all.

Maybe I judged you too harshly before. The thing that annoys the shit (and I say this out of frustration) out of me on this forum is that many of the members who participate in race based topics on this forum generalize entire races of people as having only one characteristic. You can see it above where two members are stating that black people in general have a sense of entitlement and constant victimization that keeps us from succeeded at anything.

I am up for intelligent discussion on things that plague members of my race, but I cannot be bothered to debate here when people will resort to stereotyping and making racially charged generalizations that don't bring anything of value to the topic.

That's my stance on this. I've realized its futile to participate in a discussion like this and I'm probably just going to move on.