Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

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xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Treating blacks differently from whites/asians/Mexicans/whatevers is the problem with AA. Blacks will never have parity with whites if they get special consideration for being black.

Nope, sure won't. You can't fight racism with more racism and expect it to work, the underlying problems do not get addressed, and are still there.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
This thread makes me deeply sad.

I had a wonderful Princeton Professor friend that interviewed young people applying for his college that went out of his way to meet a family member of mine because he was so sick and tired of interviewing 4.0 Asians so many of whom were, according to him, profoundly narrow and shallow. In short, he was looking for imperfect people with character, liberals with depth even, which is want he was and doubtless what he saw in me, even though I am a nobody.
SNIP
Anyone wondering why we are getting our asses kicked in education need look no farther than this. Other nations are looking for smart, motivated students who work their asses off. We're brushing past the 4.0 Asians (because their skin isn't the right color) looking for people with "depth" and "character".

The sad and yet amusing thing is that this "wonderful Princeton Professor" who is tired of interviewing 4.0 Asians because "so many of whom were, according to him, profoundly narrow and shallow" no doubt sips his imported wine while ranting that Americans don't put the proper emphasis on education. How the flying weasel fuck can we expect the general public to respect and value education (not to mention dedication and hard work) when Princeton Professors won't?
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Anyone wondering why we are getting our asses kicked in education need look no farther than this. Other nations are looking for smart, motivated students who work their asses off. We're brushing past the 4.0 Asians (because their skin isn't the right color) looking for people with "depth" and "character".

The sad and yet amusing thing is that this "wonderful Princeton Professor" who is tired of interviewing 4.0 Asians because "so many of whom were, according to him, profoundly narrow and shallow" no doubt sips his imported wine while ranting that Americans don't put the proper emphasis on education. How the flying weasel fuck can we expect the general public to respect and value education (not to mention dedication and hard work) when Princeton Professors won't?

Well said. Why the hell we need more 4.0+ Asian students and other high achievers (of ALL races) in college while we can get idiots with deep knowledge about Kim K, Honey Boo Boo so we can keep it real.

Why bother to get the potential next founder(s) of future Google/Intel/biomedical/high tech companies? Let dumb it down so we can be more "diverse".

<snip>
Treating blacks differently from whites/asians/Mexicans/whatevers is the problem with AA. Blacks will never have parity with whites if they get special consideration for being black.

Amen. See my old post above in this thread. Let remove all set aside/AA programs and judge EVERYONE (black, white, brown, purple, green, whatever) base on their own merit and hard work. PERIOD!!!
 
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HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Many whites aren't allowed either. How equal can we make things? Life isn't equal.

*snip*

Treating blacks differently from whites/asians/Mexicans/whatevers is the problem with AA. Blacks will never have parity with whites if they get special consideration for being black.

Life isn't equal, but the damage done by centuries of oppression does need some minimal effort to reverse the tide. Blacks will never have parity with whites as long as the current barriers are in place that prevent them from moving up as a whole (not as individuals who achieve despite those barriers in rare circumstances).
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Amen. See my old post above in this thread. Let remove all set aside/AA programs and judge EVERYONE (black, white, brown, purple, green, whatever) base on their own merit and hard work. PERIOD!!!

Right...just ignore the HUGE impact hundreds of years of slavery and oppression have had on blacks and lets just call everything equal starting...........NOW!

The thing you fail to understand is merit and hard work are not as significant of a factor as race when it comes to success. The numbers bear that out. Until we actively work to undo the damage we have wrought as a society it is absolutely ignorant to claim we can just ignore race.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Right...just ignore the HUGE impact hundreds of years of slavery and oppression have had on blacks and lets just call everything equal starting...........NOW!

Exactly what "HUGE impact" does slavery from 150 years ago have on blacks today? How exactly does something that no living human had anything to do with, slave, or slave owner have a real world HUGE impact? Racism, and segregation yea, they definitely have an impact, but how does slavery, please be specific.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Life isn't equal, but the damage done by centuries of oppression does need some minimal effort to reverse the tide. Blacks will never have parity with whites as long as the current barriers are in place that prevent them from moving up as a whole (not as individuals who achieve despite those barriers in rare circumstances).

Which barriers that are circumstantial to blacks alone? Rare circumstances? Is that some kind of inside joke? There's nothing "rare" about blacks success, black people have enjoyed success at every single level of American society, every single level. In case you didn't notice, even the President is black, as well as many members of Congress, the Senate, and government/leadership positions all throughout the country.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Life isn't equal, but the damage done by centuries of oppression does need some minimal effort to reverse the tide. Blacks will never have parity with whites as long as the current barriers are in place that prevent them from moving up as a whole (not as individuals who achieve despite those barriers in rare circumstances).

What barriers presently exist?

Blacks are never going to have parity as long as they feel they are being held back and are inferior.

Their attitude to themselves is the biggest handicap; "I can not make/do it because of whitey did something 200 years ago".
 
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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Right...just ignore the HUGE impact hundreds of years of slavery and oppression have had on blacks and lets just call everything equal starting...........NOW!

The thing you fail to understand is merit and hard work are not as significant of a factor as race when it comes to success. The numbers bear that out. Until we actively work to undo the damage we have wrought as a society it is absolutely ignorant to claim we can just ignore race.

Posters above already gave good comments so I will take it in a different angle.

Have you ever met/know/hear/read about racist bastards that hate blacks ONLY? Have you ever met/know/hear/read about racist bastards that hate blacks but LOOOOVEEEE Asians?

Is that how it goes?...like this?....(see below...cue music just like Law and Order)

".........at an elite University or big bank, big whitey CEO with big KKK tatoo on his back...."

9:10 a.m. Wednesday, big conference room... "No sorry Tyrone and Shaniqua, we at Big Whitey University can not accept you guys and gals because you are blacks, get out"

10:15 a.m. same day, same big conference room... "Oh, my goodness, the families of Chang/Park/Nguyen/Yamamoto/<fill in the name of typical Asian last name> are all here, congratulation, you guys are all in. Don't worry about SAT scores and high school grades, those are for blacks only. You guys are in..to the top because we at Whitey University loooooooovvvvvvveeeeee Asians, one of my best friends is Asian, as a matter of fact, I am 1/16 Asian"...<chingchong/gong sounding in background>

Yup, I am sure it is happening at all the elite Universities around the US, right? That's how Asians are kicking other minority races butt in school/college, right?
 
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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Posters above already gave good comments so I will take it in a different angle.

Have you ever met/know/hear/read about racist bastards that hate blacks ONLY? Have you ever met/know/hear/read about racist bastards that hate blacks but LOOOOVEEEE Asians?

Is that how it goes?...like this?....(see below...cue music just like Law and Order)

".........at an elite University or big bank, big whitey CEO with big KKK tatoo on his back...."

9:10 a.m. Wednesday, big conference room... "No sorry Tyrone and Shaniqua, we at Big Whitey University can not accept you guys and gals because you are blacks, get out"

10:15 a.m. same day, same big conference room... "Oh, my goodness, the families of Chang/Park/Nguyen/Yamamoto/<fill in the name of typical Asian last name> are all here, congratulation, you guys are all in. Don't worry about SAT scores and high school grades, those are for blacks only. You guys are in..to the top because we at Whitey University loooooooovvvvvvveeeeee Asians, one of my best friends is Asian, as a matter of fact, I am 1/16 Asian"...<chingchong/gong sounding in background>

Yup, I am sure it is happening at all the elite Universities around the US, right? That's how Asians are kicking other minority races butt in school/college, right?

Somebody missed the part where Hitler declared Japanese to be honorary Aryans. If even Hitler can accept Asians into White brotherhood then clearly anyone can right?
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Somebody missed the part where Hitler declared Japanese to be honorary Aryans. If even Hitler can accept Asians into White brotherhood then clearly anyone can right?

First of all, Japanese != all Asians. Believe or not, there are other nations in Asia. Also, I am talking about USA in 2012 in my post above, not Germany in WWII.

Secondly, you know that and everyone know that Hitler used that line for convenience, so Japan can take care the Pacific and Asia while Germany would take care Europe and Russia. There was not a lot of love between the Axis in WWII.
 
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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Life isn't equal, but the damage done by centuries of oppression does need some minimal effort to reverse the tide. Blacks will never have parity with whites as long as the current barriers are in place that prevent them from moving up as a whole (not as individuals who achieve despite those barriers in rare circumstances).

Southeast Asians faced just as many barriers, but we seem to have overcome them.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Racial disparities

See also: Racial inequality in the United States

When it comes to identifying issues that create and contribute to ongoing wealth inequality in the United States, it is also important to observe issues that surround the disparity in wealth between different racial groups. There are many factors involved, but inheritance might be the most important factor. Direct transfer of unused wealth/resources from a parent to a child provides them the opportunity to pay off debts and increase equity.

Inheritance therefore takes on a special meaning when considering the wealth gap between blacks and whites in today’s world because it can directly link the disadvantaged economic position and prospects of today's blacks to the disadvantaged positions of their parents' and grandparents' generations. According to a report done by Robert B. Avery and Michael S. Rendall, one in three white households will receive a substantial inheritance during their lifetime compared to only one in ten black households.[28]

This relative lack of inheritance that has been observed among African Americans can be attributed in large part to factors such as- unpaid labor (slavery), violent destruction of personal property in incidents such as Red Summer of 1919, unequal opportunity in education and employment (racial discrimination), and more recent policies such as redlining and planned shrinkage. To put it succinctly a relative lack of accumulated wealth can be attributed in large part to Racism in the United States.[citation needed] Other ethnic minorities, particularly those with darker complexions, have at times faced many of these same adversities to various degrees.[29]

I agree with the basis of wealth being passed down which gives the next generation a head start but the issue, at least concerning black folk, is a lot more complicated than that.

Frankly, a lot of the lefts programs that were honestly well intentioned, have destroyed a large segment of the black community. I would be happy to discuss them if you so desire.

And for refrence, foreign born Asian-Americans (the only time I will call someone a blank-American) have a 58.3% home ownership rate, with a median income of over $60K, a 12.2% poverty rate, and a 9.6% unwed birthrate. Black folk OTOH have something pushing 70% unwed birthrate, a 25+% poverty rate, and a median income of $32K.

I have a good idea on the "why" on part of I am sure that I don't know all of it.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
First of all, Japanese != all Asians. Believe or not, there are other nations in Asia. Also, I am talking about USA in 2012 in my post above, not Germany in WWII.

So obviously liberals cannot tell different Asians apart

I agree with the basis of wealth being passed down which gives the next generation a head start but the issue, at least concerning black folk, is a lot more complicated than that.

Frankly, a lot of the lefts programs that were honestly well intentioned, have destroyed a large segment of the black community. I would be happy to discuss them if you so desire.

And for refrence, foreign born Asian-Americans (the only time I will call someone a blank-American) have a 58.3% home ownership rate, with a median income of over $60K, a 12.2% poverty rate, and a 9.6% unwed birthrate. Black folk OTOH have something pushing 70% unwed birthrate, a 25+% poverty rate, and a median income of $32K.

I have a good idea on the "why" on part of I am sure that I don't know all of it.

I think your post says it all. Affirmative action has no place in society.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Many blacks still aren't allowed at the race.

After centuries of oppression there are many lingering effects that prevent blacks as a whole from keeping status with whites. Social stigmas are huge, this thread is evidence of that fact.

Education, nutrition, and income are HUGE factors in how well children do in school and blacks were lacking in all three areas coming out of slavery, and again coming out from under Jim Crow laws. You can't just start at 1964, say everything is equal and move on. Because it isn't equal.

Throw in the lingering social issues (seen as inferior due to centuries of slavery and discrimination) on top of those three factors mentioned above, and you have a built in trap that creates an environment where you have "proof" of the inferiority of blacks. Things are equal but they haven't kept up right? Must be because they are lacking....

Please.

With nothing being done to restore the damage created over centuries to help bring education, nutrition and income up to par; blacks have always been swimming against the current. Instead of fixing institutional issues, we as a culture instead trash them and talk them down. Any attempt to help remove barriers is met with cries of racism from those who clearly have no idea what racism really is.

Some of that is caused by unintended consequences of programs that were well intended and still championed by the left. These programs have led to generational poverty that very very few climb out of.

During the 1960s, when black folk were treated MUCH worse than today, the unwed birth rate for black folks was about 25%. The black family was one of the strongest in the nation. Today the unwed birth rate has almost tripled as it has gotten much "better" for black folk. I think this is at least partially a direct result of programs that we still have today.

I know a lady who lives in public housing. Her daughter has a unit in the same building as does her granddaughter who has 3 kids of her own and is in her young 20's. They all receive various other .gov assistance (food stamps, medicare, etc..), they do a few side jobs to supplement the income the .gov gives them and at least one of them sells half her food stamps for .50 on the dollar to get a bit more cash. How probable do you recon those 3 kids will end up in the same exact situation. IMHO, that IS a huge barrier and its much more widespread than you think.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Life isn't equal, but the damage done by centuries of oppression does need some minimal effort to reverse the tide. Blacks will never have parity with whites as long as the current barriers are in place that prevent them from moving up as a whole (not as individuals who achieve despite those barriers in rare circumstances).
For how long? How long can we blame the oppression of the past?

My view is that by expecting less from blacks, you get less. Expect more from them and they will give more.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Exactly what "HUGE impact" does slavery from 150 years ago have on blacks today? How exactly does something that no living human had anything to do with, slave, or slave owner have a real world HUGE impact? Racism, and segregation yea, they definitely have an impact, but how does slavery, please be specific.

Shrug, it is arguable that slaves were selectively bred for certain traits which still impacts black folk today. However, even if true, there is fuckall we can do about it today so its rather irrelevant.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
For how long? How long can we blame the oppression of the past?

My view is that by expecting less from blacks, you get less. Expect more from them and they will give more.

you can expect the world from someone but that is useless unless they expect just as much from themselves.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Right...just ignore the HUGE impact hundreds of years of slavery and oppression have had on blacks and lets just call everything equal starting...........NOW!

The thing you fail to understand is merit and hard work are not as significant of a factor as race when it comes to success. The numbers bear that out. Until we actively work to undo the damage we have wrought as a society it is absolutely ignorant to claim we can just ignore race.
You have a point on the first. However, affirmative action doesn't really address much of this impact, taking the easy route of lowering standards rather than the difficult business of helping blacks to meet the standards. I'd much rather see a form of affirmative action that transforms failing inner city schools into superior schools. That requires discipline and hard work from students, families, teachers and administrators, so it's much easier to just give blacks huge credits for being black. Problem is, while that gets them into universities it doesn't necessarily give them the tools to succeed in school or in life. You want to know why blacks have such high drop-out rates in college, look at that - so many blacks are trapped in failing urban schools with teachers unqualified or unwilling to teach, usually lacking the resources for a motivated child to teach herself. When you are bound to such schools, it's almost impossible to actually learn what you need to learn for college, especially for any technical degree work, unless your parents can take up the slack. Problem with that is that welfare, by making fathers not only irrelevant but actually a liability, has decimated black families. Why would anyone be surprised that blacks have ~70% illegitimacy (and other races aren't that far behind) when we have a system that rewards illegitimacy and punishes marriage? That's an essential rule of economics - reward a behavior and get more of it, punish a behavior and get less of it - and in honestly attempting to rectify the effects of slavery and segregation we've in some ways made things worse. Then AA gets these blacks into university and they are totally unqualified to do the work. Worse, AA casts a shadow on blacks who did not need it at all, or who took advantage of AA but honestly did the work and are completely qualified.

On the other hand I completely reject the notion that merit and hard work are not as significant of a factor as race when it comes to success. Take a white or brown person trapped in the same schools and they aren't going to do any better. Likewise, blacks who aren't trapped in those schools, or who can transcend that environment, and who have merit and work hard are just as successful as non-blacks. Only Asians are able to transcend that environment with any regularity, because of extraordinary cultural factors which are simply not present in statistically significant numbers among blacks or whites. The limitations of the cultural and educational environment are what limit success, not race. The legacy of slavery and segregation disproportionately put blacks into that environment, but racism itself is simply not a significant limiting factor in determining success.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
You have a point on the first. However, affirmative action doesn't really address much of this impact, taking the easy route of lowering standards rather than the difficult business of helping blacks to meet the standards. I'd much rather see a form of affirmative action that transforms failing inner city schools into superior schools. That requires discipline and hard work from students, families, teachers and administrators, so it's much easier to just give blacks huge credits for being black. Problem is, while that gets them into universities it doesn't necessarily give them the tools to succeed in school or in life. You want to know why blacks have such high drop-out rates in college, look at that - so many blacks are trapped in failing urban schools with teachers unqualified or unwilling to teach, usually lacking the resources for a motivated child to teach herself. When you are bound to such schools, it's almost impossible to actually learn what you need to learn for college, especially for any technical degree work, unless your parents can take up the slack. Problem with that is that welfare, by making fathers not only irrelevant but actually a liability, has decimated black families. Why would anyone be surprised that blacks have ~70% illegitimacy (and other races aren't that far behind) when we have a system that rewards illegitimacy and punishes marriage? That's an essential rule of economics - reward a behavior and get more of it, punish a behavior and get less of it - and in honestly attempting to rectify the effects of slavery and segregation we've in some ways made things worse. Then AA gets these blacks into university and they are totally unqualified to do the work. Worse, AA casts a shadow on blacks who did not need it at all, or who took advantage of AA but honestly did the work and are completely qualified.

On the other hand I completely reject the notion that merit and hard work are not as significant of a factor as race when it comes to success. Take a white or brown person trapped in the same schools and they aren't going to do any better. Likewise, blacks who aren't trapped in those schools, or who can transcend that environment, and who have merit and work hard are just as successful as non-blacks. Only Asians are able to transcend that environment with any regularity, because of extraordinary cultural factors which are simply not present in statistically significant numbers among blacks or whites. The limitations of the cultural and educational environment are what limit success, not race. The legacy of slavery and segregation disproportionately put blacks into that environment, but racism itself is simply not a significant limiting factor in determining success.

Its not a legacy of segregation and slavery. The black illegitimacy rate has tripled since the end of segregation. It is a legacy of liberalism.

Liberal values are the chief cause of poverty.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Some of that is caused by unintended consequences of programs that were well intended and still championed by the left. These programs have led to generational poverty that very very few climb out of.

During the 1960s, when black folk were treated MUCH worse than today, the unwed birth rate for black folks was about 25%. The black family was one of the strongest in the nation. Today the unwed birth rate has almost tripled as it has gotten much "better" for black folk. I think this is at least partially a direct result of programs that we still have today.

I know a lady who lives in public housing. Her daughter has a unit in the same building as does her granddaughter who has 3 kids of her own and is in her young 20's. They all receive various other .gov assistance (food stamps, medicare, etc..), they do a few side jobs to supplement the income the .gov gives them and at least one of them sells half her food stamps for .50 on the dollar to get a bit more cash. How probable do you recon those 3 kids will end up in the same exact situation. IMHO, that IS a huge barrier and its much more widespread than you think.

If you reward people for illegitimacy why is it any surprise when illegitimacy sky rockets?

And why anyone would think that fatherless families would be good for anyone is beyond me.

I think you are wrong about the programs being well intended and having "unitended" consequences.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
you can expect the world from someone but that is useless unless they expect just as much from themselves.
I think it is a good thing to expect the same from everybody whether everybody follows through and achieves it is on them.
 
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