Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

[HendrixFan]

Because instead on running the race and catching up with the slow pokes; they stopped and complained that they started behind.

Many blacks still aren't allowed at the race.

After centuries of oppression there are many lingering effects that prevent blacks as a whole from keeping status with whites. Social stigmas are huge, this thread is evidence of that fact.

Education, nutrition, and income are HUGE factors in how well children do in school and blacks were lacking in all three areas coming out of slavery, and again coming out from under Jim Crow laws. You can't just start at 1964, say everything is equal and move on. Because it isn't equal.

Throw in the lingering social issues (seen as inferior due to centuries of slavery and discrimination) on top of those three factors mentioned above, and you have a built in trap that creates an environment where you have "proof" of the inferiority of blacks. Things are equal but they haven't kept up right? Must be because they are lacking....

Please.

With nothing being done to restore the damage created over centuries to help bring education, nutrition and income up to par; blacks have always been swimming against the current. Instead of fixing institutional issues, we as a culture instead trash them and talk them down. Any attempt to help remove barriers is met with cries of racism from those who clearly have no idea what racism really is.

 

[emperus]

SheHateMe,

Since you mentioned CounterStrike and since I thought it might interest and surprise you, you should know that I've played since 1999 and the number of times I've shouted down someone for saying the N word on there or "Jew" as an insult is countless.

The number of times I've bitched over ventrilo etc to my friend I played with a lot in our heyday about the number of "little racist pieces of shit on this server" (almost every server) in CS, is mind boggling.

The number of times I made the same complaint about opponents in StarCraft, Diablo, Ultima Online, or countless games over the years... staggering.

I remember one time I was with two guys in World of WarCraft from the guild PALS 4 LIFE (Leeroy Jenkins' guild, I played on that same server when I played) and they tried to start a summon of another guild mate of theirs, and needed my click to complete it, but the summon had a macro about "help me summon this lazy N-word" I told them they'd not be getting my help with the summon, that I hated their stupid racist guild, and then I left the group and rode off.

Their guild was quite racist actually, and if you ever watched the Leeroy Jenkins video and paid close attention to the stereotypes and what they were saying, the video itself was quite racist against blacks. I tried to alert people to this on a few occasions. It helped that I had had direct run ins with the guild and knew them to be racists.

So, perhaps my outlook on these issues is not as simply categorized as you think.

I won't deny that I have been undergoing a recent transformation in my views on things, political things... race as well, but that transformation hasn't involved becoming friendly toward mean-spirited idiots, or crass, cruel insults.

I've merely started to accept certain realities. That's all.

lol. I call Bullshit on that story. If you haven't read many of Geo's post, he'll usually make something up to illicit sympathy to sound reasonable. Like his canard of being a liberal or that he had a black mentor who who suddenly died.

Here is one example of this tactic in this thread alone.

I used to support affirmative action very strongly, now I oppose it very strongly.

I used to think it was a useful tool to help certain segments of the population catch up and overcome past and...

To hide how he truly feels that blacks are deficient intellectually due to natural selection. That is some Aryan Brotherhood shit if I ever heard it.

Gee I wonder if the same selection pressures and biological changes which lead certain subgroups within humanity to develop certain things might also prepare them more for, and give them an advantage at those same things now!

Nah! not a chance... after all, there is a magical shell around the human brain which prevents evolution and natural selection from impacting it, to protect peoples' feelings. Thank goodness for that!

 

[EagleKeeper]

That is exactly the reason we have a black president. You are so brilliant.

So if we can have a black President, Secretary of State, National Security Advisor and a Supreme Court Justice (4 of the most important positions in US government), how can anyone say that affirmative action is still needed.

Those people have shown that the top is reachable regardless of race. AA says that because and only because of your race that you are less a person than those that are beside you.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Many blacks still aren't allowed at the race.

After centuries of oppression there are many lingering effects that prevent blacks as a whole from keeping status with whites. Social stigmas are huge, this thread is evidence of that fact.

Education, nutrition, and income are HUGE factors in how well children do in school and blacks were lacking in all three areas coming out of slavery, and again coming out from under Jim Crow laws. You can't just start at 1964, say everything is equal and move on. Because it isn't equal.

Throw in the lingering social issues (seen as inferior due to centuries of slavery and discrimination) on top of those three factors mentioned above, and you have a built in trap that creates an environment where you have "proof" of the inferiority of blacks. Things are equal but they haven't kept up right? Must be because they are lacking....

Please.

With nothing being done to restore the damage created over centuries to help bring education, nutrition and income up to par; blacks have always been swimming against the current. Instead of fixing institutional issues, we as a culture instead trash them and talk them down. Any attempt to help remove barriers is met with cries of racism from those who clearly have no idea what racism really is.

So at what point should forced inequality be removed. Another 50 years, 100 years. 200 years. As long ad a person chooses to blame others for their problems, they are mot moving forward.

Freedom was granted 150 years ago. Blacks that chose to make something of themselves were able to do so. The realized that they did not need to be held back, they could make it on their own.

It was those that decided to not search for themselves that have handicapped themselves and set up the perpetual victim scenario

 

[Geosurface]

I love it, emperus... you cite the fact that YOU have FALSELY accused me of lying about things in the past, as evidence that I'm supposedly lying again.

You've never provided an ounce of evidence that anything I've said was untrue (it'd be rather difficult to, since I have literally NEVER lied about myself, my beliefs, my former beliefs, my personal history or people in my life) but now you have the balls to say "oh yea Geo, he'll usually make something up" as if it's some settled fucking fact that I do.

All the while I've literally not done it ONCE. My god you're an ass. One good example of why you might want to question your assumption that I'm lying is in a series of posts in the Trayvon thread from a couple of days ago. Londo posted his IQ score and I posted mine in response, just as a curiousity, but you'll note that mine had an absolutely ATROCIOUS math subsection score. And that my overall score was lower than Londo's. If I was this habitual liar wouldn't I omit the specific subsections that showed how awful I scored in math? And post my overall composite as higher than Londo's or at least not a full 15 points lower?

And we got to mentioning our ASVAB (military admission test) scores at the same time, mine was lower than either of the other two people who posted theirs. Still good, but if I was willing to lie in the way you imagine I do, why not give myself a 99 as someone else said they got (and I don't doubt them, just saying)?

Or why not claim that I myself am actually black? Or that I have a dozen black friends instead of the 2 I've mentioned... 2 is rather paltry isn't it, if my goal was to get points for having black friends?

My neighbor who died of cancer in, if memory serves, 2002 did not "mentor" me exactly, but we were good friends and he did fulfill a sort of fatherly role to some limited degree for me, on a few occasions. It wasn't a huge deal, but he did build me a club house when I was like 13, and prevented me from taking a flea and tick infested new dog I'd just bought at a farm outside of town inside, and helped by bringing out all of his dog shampoos, wash basin, etc. Beyond those two incidents, it was mostly just friendly talks in the front yard and him loaning me some tools. I went over there a few times and hung out, not a great deal. I never made it out to be some sort of incredible thing. I was sad when he died, but not devastated.

And if I wanted this cred for being liberal, why would I admit that I no longer consider myself that? Wouldn't that tend to undermine that whole plan?

You need to take off the tin foil hat and drop the stupid conspiracy theory shit.

 

[werepossum]

My question is. If racism were still prevalent would you support affirmative action? Assume if it were.

So umm. Yeah, I'm black. I don't think it's right for you to presume to speak for my experiences having never walked in my shoes.

I once challenged some people on this board to change their avatar on their favorite online game to a black person for a month. Turn the chat on and see what type of interaction you get when people are in the comfort of their homes (i.e private thought). You would be surprised.

btw. Why not sit down and ask your sister in law her experiences? Show her this thread and see what she thinks.

I tend to suspect that this ^ is due to this. Still, it's an interesting experiment. If I played on line, I'd try it.

Sorry, I found this funny. Saying you ran into racist, rude, morons playing CS is like saying you woke up and breathed air, kind of a "no shit". Believe it or not, every race, even whites, have been slaves at one time, and no color is immune to racist attacks. I've had a gun in my face for being white in the wrong place, pulled over for being in the wrong neighborhood, yadda, yadda. It's funny my friend and me, he's black btw, used to go downtown in Austin, and without fail black dudes would ask me what we were looking for, and white dudes would ask him if he was holding. It's not the fucking 50's anymore. Yea, there's lessons to learn from the past, but clinging to it, and trying to make it relevant today is counterproductive.

I asked you a question and it's kind of telling you won't answer it. I'm trying to narrow your argument. I'm not sure if you are arguing affirmative action is bad because there's no discrimination anymore or even if there were discrimination it would be bad. So, let me ask you again, if racism were still prevalent would you support Affirmative action.

You have the wrong person. I think you fail to understand, we can both address Racism without using it as a crutch. Black people succeed despite racism. In real life my friend, everyone can tell your black.

My argument is that you're using you sister to make a point. why not just talk to her and you can get a more informed view to make your point on.

This is I think one reason blacks tend to be so anti-gay. It's essentially the same struggle, but the big difference is the closet. It's a lot harder to not mention you're black than to not mention you're gay.

 

[DCal430]

I for one think African Americans are just as capable as anyone else. I think there is a problem and something needs to be done, but just don’t think it is AA.


Here in California, which is one of the few states were universities keep good records. Blacks account for less than 3% of the student body in the University of California system, but as a population of California they are closer to 6%. On the other hand you have Vietnamese people who are close to 1.5% of the state population but 5% of the University of California population.


According to the latest 3-Year ACS, Between the ages of 25 and 34 around 21% of African Americans have a Bachelor Degree or Higher compared to 39% for Non-Hispanic Whites and 45% for Vietnamese.


According to the 2010 ACS 13% of Non-Hispanic White Children, 16% of Vietnamese Children, and 37% of African American Children lived in poverty.


I compare them to Vietnamese, because when my people came to this country in the 70s and 80s we have poverty rates worse than African Americans, we face discrimination and racism that was just as bad, yet we overcame. I don’t see why African Americans can’t just overcome too.

 

[DCal430]

Factors that can be used instead of Affirmative Action include:

Income Level,
ESL Status,
Immigration Status,
Parental Education,
Single Parent Household,
High School Ranking,
and Zip Code

All of these things can be used instead of affirmative action to achieve its goal of equality.

 

[rchiu]

Factors that can be used instead of Affirmative Action include:

Income Level,
ESL Status,
Immigration Status,
Parental Education,
Single Parent Household,
High School Ranking,
and Zip Code

All of these things can be used instead of affirmative action to achieve its goal of equality.

What about IQ? isn't it unfair for low IQ people to not able to go to good college and get good jobs?

let's face it, life is not fair. Affirmative action is not about fairness, its about votes. When some group becomes important to politicians, you will see bunch of affirmative actions for them. Otherwise, forget about it.

That's how things work in the US.

 

[classy]

So at what point should forced inequality be removed. Another 50 years, 100 years. 200 years. As long ad a person chooses to blame others for their problems, they are mot moving forward.

Freedom was granted 150 years ago. Blacks that chose to make something of themselves were able to do so. The realized that they did not need to be held back, they could make it on their own.

It was those that decided to not search for themselves that have handicapped themselves and set up the perpetual victim scenario

There was still outright segregation in the late 70s into the early 80s. We have a 300 plus year history of racism against blacks. We are the only race that was not only forced here, but laws were made to make us be a permament under class. White women have benefited more from affirmative action than any other class. So you think you are going to wipe away that history in 20 years. What do you say to a person such as myself who's grandfather was seen arguing with several white gentlemen and the next morning he was found with his head cracked open and he died never regaining consciousness. Investigation, if there was one, turned up nothing. That was two years before I was born.

I go to VMware, Dell, Cisco, Microsoft conferences and you can count on one hand the number of blacks that are in these conferences. Plenty of blacks in lesser IT roles, but very very few are ever promoted. I have made it to admin level and I had to tell my one of racist white bosses to kiss my ass along the way too. I have worked in every industry except government. Most of the places with several hundred people to 10K plus. Firms with 200 plus attorneys, maybe 6-7 black attorneys. Out of all the industries I can only think 3 higher ups that were black out of a couple hundred. So I can say with no doubt at all, clearly affirmative action has had very little influence in many high level fields.

I got to be careful here with this statement, but asians very rarely ever get exposed to kind stuff blacks have to endure. An asian person can get a loan to start a business, where an equally qualified black can not. There is no such thing as a golden road for most people regardless of race, except the wealthy and they also have to work hard many times to be successful. But if blacks were given the same number of opportunties as our counter parts it would be different. But we have to be not only equal, we have to be better.

I have actually went out with a very nice asian lady a couple times here in the last month, so I am little reluctant to speak harshly or make stuff up. I stated before I have never met a bad asian person, I am sure they exist though. But these ladders of success are not equal. Ours has oil and ice on it along the way. Can we do better, absolutely. But even when we pay the price, we still gotta hear the bullshit about its because of our color. When truth is, some of us are just damn good .

 

[emperus]

What about IQ? isn't it unfair for low IQ people to not able to go to good college and get good jobs?

let's face it, life is not fair. Affirmative action is not about fairness, its about votes. When some group becomes important to politicians, you will see bunch of affirmative actions for them. Otherwise, forget about it.

That's how things work in the US.

You're absolutely right. I think it is unfair how Bush managed to get into Harvard Business School and become president when he clearly had a low IQ.

I assume that is what you were talking about.

 

[emperus]

Factors that can be used instead of Affirmative Action include:

Income Level,
ESL Status,
Immigration Status,
Parental Education,
Single Parent Household,
High School Ranking,
and Zip Code

All of these things can be used instead of affirmative action to achieve its goal of equality.

That would still be affirmative action. You would just be changing what considerations would be used.

 

[xj0hnx]

That would still be affirmative action. You would just be changing what considerations would be used.

And all of them are much better indicators of why someone would be a success or failure than race.

 

[waggy]

I for one think African Americans are just as capable as anyone else. I think there is a problem and something needs to be done, but just don’t think it is AA.

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I agree. i see it in my family.

I think AA is not going to do it. It has to be something more then offering a check box that can be marked when hireing and quota's. But i suspect it's going to take more then people (mainly the black and poor culture) want to change.

as it is now being smart and working hard is not something that is pushed. Growing up in a hardworking 2 parent family is not pushed. Getting a education is not pushed. The things that are pushed seems to be athletics. While i am all for having in them that can't be the life.

AA is a False front that is NOT going to help the black community. It is vote getter and another way to control the black population. I would be insulted that a CEO thinks so little of me that he has to hire me just to meet a quota. That he does not think I am worth the time and effort to get the job based on education, merit and skill. instead we are telling a race that they are not worth it and that we will give them a job we feel they can't do. So it continues the cycle of no education, no drive, etc.

If you look at Asian culture vs black culture you can see a huge difference. In one you see a push for dominance in education in the other you see a dominance in athletics. Do people really need to wonder why one is considered a success and one is not?


But what can be done about it?

 

[emperus]

I agree. i see it in my family.

I think AA is not going to do it. It has to be something more then offering a check box that can be marked when hireing and quota's. But i suspect it's going to take more then people (mainly the black and poor culture) want to change.

as it is now being smart and working hard is not something that is pushed. Growing up in a hardworking 2 parent family is not pushed. Getting a education is not pushed. The things that are pushed seems to be athletics. While i am all for having in them that can't be the life.

AA is a False front that is NOT going to help the black community. It is vote getter and another way to control the black population. I would be insulted that a CEO thinks so little of me that he has to hire me just to meet a quota. That he does not think I am worth the time and effort to get the job based on education, merit and skill. instead we are telling a race that they are not worth it and that we will give them a job we feel they can't do. So it continues the cycle of no education, no drive, etc.

If you look at Asian culture vs black culture you can see a huge difference. In one you see a push for dominance in education in the other you see a dominance in athletics. Do people really need to wonder why one is considered a success and one is not?


But what can be done about it?

Very good insight. It's not the least bit condescending that someone who has no idea about African Americans nor will ever face Racism in their life is offering solutions as to what will and will not help.

Thanks Waggy. Greatly appreciated.

 

[Moonbeam]

Very good insight. It's not the least bit condescending that someone who has no idea about African Americans nor will ever face Racism in their life is offering solutions as to what will and will not help.

Thanks Waggy. Greatly appreciated.

This thread makes me deeply sad.

I had a wonderful Princeton Professor friend that interviewed young people applying for his college that went out of his way to meet a family member of mine because he was so sick and tired of interviewing 4.0 Asians so many of whom were, according to him, profoundly narrow and shallow. In short, he was looking for imperfect people with character, liberals with depth even, which is want he was and doubtless what he saw in me, even though I am a nobody.

So what is this character thing. I think it's caring or empathy, a deep personal wish for goodness for others, a revulsion for competition and ego, a contempt for those who cause others to suffer.

And I think this all gets started by personally knowing pain, some kind of pain that a child can't turn off or repress, a deep will to recover and make the world right as rain. And I think one place you can get it is from parental love and kindness and parental horror if you don't show them yourself.

At any rate I can remember back in I think grade one there was a girl who was very uncoordinated and ran like a stork and the kids used to ridicule her, and I remember it made me sick. Why are so so so many kids so so so mean and grow up the same way.

Well the answer, though almost completely unknown, is that we were put down as children by being compared to others, by being told we're not as good as somebody else. And so we use others to build up our ego, we make somebody else feel inferior so we can feel better. We learned to hate ourselves, and in the case of racism dumped centuries of self contempt on black people.

But the only way a white person can know this is through understanding his or her own pain, by assuming that the pain on feels for being told you were inferior as a child is what black people feel. White people can't really know directly what black people experience. White people, because they will not know their own pain, will not appreciate the pain black people feel. White people will dismiss the pain of racism because they dismiss their own pain.

It's so very sad.

But the fact that white people can't know the pain they have cause to blacks and don't want to because they don't have the balls to feel bad, they have no problem condemning black people for sighs of the damage that has been done. Centuries of malicious contempt and slavery have created a population of folk who have less in the way of income, inheritance, family integrity, personal self esteem and countless other things. And now the contempt continues. We're going to run a 100m sprint but blacks will start 100m behind.

And it so so so so sad because nobody will see the answer because the problem is their own self hate and only so so few will ever feel it.

 

[SheHateMe]

Emperus, why are you still posting here? These people will think what they think. I was done after the "blacks don't want to learn because they think its "acting white"" comment.

Its not worth it.

 

[chucky2]

:thumbsup: One of your best parody posts in a long time!

 

[Munky]

I came to the exact opposite conclusion. Those feeling empathy for everyone under the sun tend to be sheltered college kids who never had to struggle for survival, never got mugged, never had to fight in a warzone, and whose middle class parents spent a lot of money to make sure their precious kids lived in a well-off suburban community far away from the black people they claim to love.

 

[waggy]

This thread makes me deeply sad.

I had a wonderful Princeton Professor friend that interviewed young people applying for his college that went out of his way to meet a family member of mine because he was so sick and tired of interviewing 4.0 Asians so many of whom were, according to him, profoundly narrow and shallow. In short, he was looking for imperfect people with character, liberals with depth even, which is want he was and doubtless what he saw in me, even though I am a nobody.

So what is this character thing. I think it's caring or empathy, a deep personal wish for goodness for others, a revulsion for competition and ego, a contempt for those who cause others to suffer.

And I think this all gets started by personally knowing pain, some kind of pain that a child can't turn off or repress, a deep will to recover and make the world right as rain. And I think one place you can get it is from parental love and kindness and parental horror if you don't show them yourself.

you are right in that it should not be about be just about education OR athletics. You need balance in your life. Not just in mind but body. I found that when i was in sports i did better in school. why? i felt better physicals. that in turn made me think better about myself. more ego and more self confidence. Same as in education. when i aced a test i stressed over i felt better about myself. i tended to do better in sports. again ego and self confidence.

Competition in itself is NOT bad. its when winning all you strive for. winning at any cost is not something to value. Working hard and gaining goals is something that is worth striving for.

Character is something i think parents teach the children. I work hard at showing and teaching my kids proper values and ethics. We work hard to make sure our children are of good character.

My goal as a parent is to have a healthy, happy, productive member of society.

 

[1prophet]

Affirmative action had a noble cause, giving opportunity to black people with abilities equal to or better than whites, but held back because of slavery and segregation.

The thing that will eventually undue affirmative action is not some hillbilly redneck white person but its insistence on defining itself based on black vs white in a competitive global economy where whites are diminishing and other groups will eventually take their place sans the white guilt.

 

[Moonbeam]

I came to the exact opposite conclusion. Those feeling empathy for everyone under the sun tend to be sheltered college kids who never had to struggle for survival, never got mugged, never had to fight in a warzone, and whose middle class parents spent a lot of money to make sure their precious kids lived in a well-off suburban community far away from the black people they claim to love.

Everybody who has gotten fucked up by life thinks he's better for it. Every beautiful child turned into a cold hearted bastard becomes proud of it.

 

[Wreckem]

That would still be affirmative action. You would just be changing what considerations would be used.

Here is a hint. The case for AA is about race. They can and do use the above list, and will continue to do so no matter how SCotUS rules about race based affirmative action.

 

[xj0hnx]

Everybody who has gotten fucked up by life thinks he's better for it. Every beautiful child turned into a cold hearted bastard becomes proud of it.

More like ...came to grip with reality, but whatever floats your boat.

 

[buckshot24]

Many blacks still aren't allowed at the race.

Many whites aren't allowed either. How equal can we make things? Life isn't equal. My father didn't go to Yale or Harvard or Princeton. If he did, if he was an alumni donor maybe he could have pulled some strings to get me into one of those schools. Those who had that advantage had an unfair step up on me. You know what? I probably make a median wage for Harvard graduates maybe a little higher. We are all dealt different hands in life.

Treating blacks differently from whites/asians/Mexicans/whatevers is the problem with AA. Blacks will never have parity with whites if they get special consideration for being black.