Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

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thelastjuju

Senior member
Nov 6, 2011
444
2
0
My thoughts on AA = Its a necessary evil.

Often I wish I could think of these issues like people such as nehalem256 above me do.. where everything is so simple and black and white, and placing 100% of the blame on ONE side is somehow satisfying enough.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
My thoughts on AA = Its a necessary evil.

Often I wish I could think of these issues like people such as nehalem256 above me do.. where everything is so simple and black and white, and placing 100% of the blame on ONE side is somehow satisfying enough.

and this is the thought that allows the cycle to continue instead of breaking it.


I think it is a good thing to expect the same from everybody whether everybody follows through and achieves it is on them.

agreed. to bad that is not what is happening. AA to me says blacks are inferior. When in reality they are not.

But again i believe that comes from culture and changing that is not something whites, or the government can change.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
My thoughts on AA = Its a necessary evil.

Often I wish I could think of these issues like people such as nehalem256 above me do.. where everything is so simple and black and white, and placing 100% of the blame on ONE side is somehow satisfying enough.

Isn't affirmative action essentially black and white though?

It gives certain groups an advantage based on nothing but skin color. So a black person from a wealthy family would be given preference, and a white person from a poor family would be given dispreference.
 

thelastjuju

Senior member
Nov 6, 2011
444
2
0
So you guys expect the SAME from say a fatherless black kid born into a ghetto as you do from say, a Mitt Romney, who's father was a ceo AND a governor and attended prestigious private school?

Blacks are not inherently inferior, and that's not what AA says.. its more of a recognition that certain groups ARE at a disadvantage due to a long history of institutionalized slavery, discrimination, segregation into inferior schools, white flight, etc.. and complete lack of privilege as a result.. AA aims to level the playing field so that everyone has a SHOT, and eventually we have enough blacks in high places to assume the position of role model to inspire the youth in their communities that the same is possible for them too.

Isn't affirmative action essentially black and white though?

It gives certain groups an advantage based on nothing but skin color. So a black person from a wealthy family would be given preference, and a white person from a poor family would be given dispreference.

It gives disadvantaged individuals a CHANCE.. a chance they wouldn't have otherwise.

Black kids born into wealth shouldn't qualify for Affirmative Action though.. the system isn't perfect, and should be modified over time so as black families become wealthier, AA becomes less and less necessary.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
So you guys expect the SAME from say a fatherless black kid born into a ghetto as you do from say, a Mitt Romney, who's father was a ceo AND a governor and attended prestigious private school?

Blacks are not inherently inferior, and that's not what AA says.. its more of a recognition that certain groups ARE at a disadvantage due to a long history of institutionalized slavery, discrimination, segregation into inferior schools, white flight, etc.. and complete lack of privilege as a result.. AA aims to level the playing field so that everyone has a SHOT, and eventually we have enough blacks in high places to assume the position of role model to inspire the youth in their communities that the same is possible for them too.

It gives disadvantaged individuals a CHANCE.. a chance they wouldn't have otherwise.

Black kids born into wealth shouldn't qualify for Affirmative Action though.. the system isn't perfect, and should be modified over time so as black families become wealthier, AA becomes less and less necessary.

Dirt poor Southeast Asian students did not have any role models to look up to or much money when they arrived in the US in the mid 70's to late 80's plus no AA or set aside programs, yet they still managed to kick ass in schools/colleges. Asians (overall) are still doing very well, as well if not better in whites. Why is that? Because racist basbards only discriminate against blacks? <see my post above (#187) about Big Whitey University>

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...-nation/who-isnt-graduating-from-high-school/

So who is most likely not walking with their classmates this month? A black, Hispanic or American Indian teenager, whose graduation rates hover around 65 percent, according to a recent study [PDF] from the Everyone Graduates Center at the Johns Hopkins University School of Education. This is compared to 82 percent of whites and about 92 percent of Asian/Pacific Islanders.

92% (without AA or set aside programs > >>>>>>> 65% <with AA plus numerous set aside programs>
 
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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
So you guys expect the SAME from say a fatherless black kid born into a ghetto as you do from say, a Mitt Romney, who's father was a ceo AND a governor and attended prestigious private school?

Blacks are not inherently inferior, and that's not what AA says.. its more of a recognition that certain groups ARE at a disadvantage due to a long history of institutionalized slavery, discrimination, segregation into inferior schools, white flight, etc.. and complete lack of privilege as a result.. AA aims to level the playing field so that everyone has a SHOT, and eventually we have enough blacks in high places to assume the position of role model to inspire the youth in their communities that the same is possible for them too.



It gives disadvantaged individuals a CHANCE.. a chance they wouldn't have otherwise.

Black kids born into wealth shouldn't qualify for Affirmative Action though.. the system isn't perfect, and should be modified over time so as black families become wealthier, AA becomes less and less necessary.

Why shouldn't impoverish asians be given a benefit. Race shouldn't be a factor, things like :

Income Level,
ESL Status,
Immigration Status,
Parental Education,
Single Parent Household,
High School Ranking,
and Zip Code

Should though
 

thelastjuju

Senior member
Nov 6, 2011
444
2
0
Poor Southeast Asian students did not have any role models to look up to when they arrived in the US in the mid 70's to late 80's plus no AA or set aside programs, yet they still managed to kick ass in schools/colleges. Why is that?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...-nation/who-isnt-graduating-from-high-school/

Probably has something to do with the fact that we didn't enslave their race and create a set of attitudes and beliefs towards them to go along with it, to help justify what we were doing to them for future generations..

:whiste:

We didn't MANUFACTURE a stigma towards Asians, we did towards African Americans.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Probably has something to do with the fact that we didn't enslave their race and create a set of attitudes and beliefs towards them to go along with it, to help justify what we were doing to them for future generations..

:whiste:

We didn't MANUFACTURE a stigma towards Asians, we did towards African Americans.

So are you saying what I say in post #187 are true? :whiste: Yes or No, very simple to answer.

Even the link from PBS Frontline stated that whites did not do as well in school as Asians (82% vs. 92%). OMG, must be because of racist basbards manufactured a stigma towards whites, therefore, whites did not do as well in school. That's it, Eureka..more AA/set aside programs for whites...pronto....LOL .
 
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thelastjuju

Senior member
Nov 6, 2011
444
2
0
I just read post #187 and came to the conclusion you have no business weighing in on this issue.. at all..

It looks like you are willing to tell yourself anything to sweep America's dark history under the rug.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
I just read post #187 and came to the conclusion you have no business weighing in on this issue.. at all..

It looks like you are willing to tell yourself anything to sweep America's dark history under the rug.

As I said, yes or no. Very simple to answer. Nice try to spin/wiggle out. Any comments on my last paragraph on post #210?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Probably has something to do with the fact that we didn't enslave their race and create a set of attitudes and beliefs towards them to go along with it, to help justify what we were doing to them for future generations..

:whiste:

We didn't MANUFACTURE a stigma towards Asians, we did towards African Americans.

Given that ~30% of black men in their 20s are involved in the penal system I think they have done an awfully good job of creating their own stigma.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I think people have been fed a line of Bull that they are inferior and can not succeed and they chose to believe it. It takes a belief in yourself and some hard work to succeed in life.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
I think people have been fed a line of Bull that they are inferior and can not succeed and they chose to believe it. It takes a belief in yourself and some hard work to succeed in life.

Thread topic aside, whites had been feeding that message to blacks for nearly 100 years. Then, after slavery was over and done with, blacks were intimidated by whites not only in the southern states but also in northern states. Blacks went to second rate schools and were only given hand me down books from white schools while white children had access to first rate education. This oppressive system continued until the civil rights era when the government determined that blacks were actually people.

Before that, blacks didn't even count as a whole person when it came to their voting power. It was something like a black vote was only worth 1/3rd of a vote or something like that.

The United States determined that Negroes were too inferior to whites to be able to fly aircraft in the military...yet, we were smart enough to hold a gun and die for the white man on the battlefield. There are published studies backed by the US Government that said the Negro brain was smaller than that of a White brain and that we were basically genetically predisposed to being intellectually inferior to whites.

For anyone in this thread to sit here and say that whites were not the terrorists they were back then are in serious denial.

I don't agree with affirmative action, but if you are going to say something is BS...please know what you are talking about.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
I think it is wrong to say blacks have some monopoly on discrimination, and that southeast asians don't know discrimination like black do.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
I think it is wrong to say blacks have some monopoly on discrimination, and that southeast asians don't know discrimination like black do.

Lets see, Asians were not enslaved by whites in this country. Asians were able to come to the US of their own cognizance. Also, yes..they face discrimination and were treated as bad as blacks were. However, historically, we don't see them facing the same hardships blacks have...for example, have you ever heard of the KKK terrorizing Asians in the south?


Besides, when did I say blacks had a "monopoly" on discrimination?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Its not a legacy of segregation and slavery. The black illegitimacy rate has tripled since the end of segregation. It is a legacy of liberalism.

Liberal values are the chief cause of poverty.
To a large degree that's true, the best laid plans of mice and men and all. However, the reason blacks were so vulnerable to this liberalism is the legacy of segregation and slavery. As SheHateMe points out below, blacks were in many cases relegated to very poor quality schools even where there was no legal segregation, simply by economic circumstances. These blacks were thus poorly educated and usually not good employees in jobs that require education. It's a vicious cycle; if your education is crap it's hard to make a good living, and if you don't make a good living you're likely to live in a school district where your children will get a crap education. It's also a brush that tars all blacks to a degree; if the last three blacks you hired were unable to do basic math, you've got to be at least subconsciously discouraged from taking a chance on the black kid who either successfully overcome such an environment, or whose parents had.

Thread topic aside, whites had been feeding that message to blacks for nearly 100 years. Then, after slavery was over and done with, blacks were intimidated by whites not only in the southern states but also in northern states. Blacks went to second rate schools and were only given hand me down books from white schools while white children had access to first rate education. This oppressive system continued until the civil rights era when the government determined that blacks were actually people.

Before that, blacks didn't even count as a whole person when it came to their voting power. It was something like a black vote was only worth 1/3rd of a vote or something like that.

The United States determined that Negroes were too inferior to whites to be able to fly aircraft in the military...yet, we were smart enough to hold a gun and die for the white man on the battlefield. There are published studies backed by the US Government that said the Negro brain was smaller than that of a White brain and that we were basically genetically predisposed to being intellectually inferior to whites.

For anyone in this thread to sit here and say that whites were not the terrorists they were back then are in serious denial.

I don't agree with affirmative action, but if you are going to say something is BS...please know what you are talking about.
With all due respect, black children are probably discouraged more from being told NOW that racism prevents them from being successful than by what their grandparents were told. For that matter, I've not noticed many blacks of that age having this attitude; the much more prevalent attitude (for me looking in, anyway) is I can certainly succeed if you'll just give me a chance. That attitude is far too scarce today.

As far as our World War II pre-integration era military, being a pilot required a LOT of math. There probably weren't a lot of blacks, especially from the South, with that ability. (Or more specifically, with the prerequisite education to learn the math, not the ability to learn the math.) So yes, that was racism, but there was also some empirical evidence to at least give cover. Also, blacks of that era was mostly kept out of direct combat units as well, being in support, combat support, and artillery units.

If anyone is interested in the dynamics, look up the history of the two black enlisted/white officer independent WWII tank battalions. One had a CO who was adamantly against blacks in combat, believing them to be inherently inferior and incapable. That unit broke easily and fought poorly, eventually being pulled from combat and disbanded. The other had a CO who initially believed the same, but decided to voraciously present confidence to his white officers and thus, his black enlisted men. The result was that unit was exemplary, as its men (all volunteers) not only had a chip to prove they could do the job, but also believed in themselves. I think we've gone far overboard on the importance of feelings, but this is a stark lesson in the value of a positive attitude. If you think you can do whatever others can do, you probably can. If you think you cannot do whatever others can do, you probably can't.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Ok folks. No one is denied that slavery was horrible and blacks were treated badly years ago.

But get this straight, since the integration of blacks in school/college and removal of Jim Crow law, can anyone tell me where in the US that racism is still widely systematic acceptable and publicly promote in 2012? All I saw from the posts in this thread happened YEARS ago and yet black students are still sucking horrible in school in the present time (see my link from PBS Frontline above - post #206).

Deny everything and blame others all you want but unless you take care of your own self inflicted problems, you will have nowhere to go but to the bottom.

Oh, saw this on the local news tonight, I did not see any Asian students in this clip = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ_c9uHRFsE
 
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xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
So you guys expect the SAME from say a fatherless black kid born into a ghetto as you do from say, a Mitt Romney, who's father was a ceo AND a governor and attended prestigious private school?

So you guys expect the SAME from say a fatherless white kid born into a trailer park as you do from say, Barack Obama's son, who's father was the President of the United States, and attended a prestigious private school?

Oh snap, race? What's that?
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
As far as our World War II pre-integration era military, being a pilot required a LOT of math. There probably weren't a lot of blacks, especially from the South, with that ability. (Or more specifically, with the prerequisite education to learn the math, not the ability to learn the math.) So yes, that was racism, but there was also some empirical evidence to at least give cover. Also, blacks of that era was mostly kept out of direct combat units as well, being in support, combat support, and artillery units.

Empirical evidence that blacks are predisposed to be intellectually inferior to whites, eh? It didnt have anything to do with Science, it had everything to do with White Supremacy. Period. By that time, blacks had setup their own colleges and Universities and were actually getting some pretty impressive degrees from those institutions.

Also the Tuskegee Airme...

You know what, nevermind. I quit.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
That's not what he said, but twist it to suit.

Oh right, thats because it wasnt in response to my comment about the United States Government saying that Negroes were intellectually incapable of flying aircraft.

He responds by saying that there is some empirical evidence to support their concerns...since you know, there weren't many blacks in the south that had math skills.

Are you kidding me? Do some research into black history during that era, there were black Universities and Colleges popping up everywhere in the South, they wanted to get a proper education and whites barred them from having access to the same resources they do, so, they built their own shit. They built their own stuff and educated themselves.

There is no empirical evidence to back up the claims of the Government during that time to support their theory that Blacks were intellectually inferior to whites. It was White Supremacy, if their "science" was true...how the fudge did the Tuskegee experiment turn out so damned well?

So... Negroes were too dumb to do math...so they couldn't fly planes..but somehow the Government found a group of them that were one of the best defense squadrons they had available.
 
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