Thoughts on games with permadeath?

[[DHT]Osiris]

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Plenty of games let you 'choose your own adventure' as it were, like TES games or whatever. Some are designed with a specific playstyle in mind though, and if you don't like that, you don't play that game. Most Roguelikes have a very common thread in that it's *very* heavily RNG based, and when you die you start over, sometimes with a 'carryover' to future characters/attempts/builds, like Rogue Legacy. If that's not your cup o' tea, so be it.
"

Sorry, is this the "how you play your game impacts my game experience" argument again which I already told is pure BS? 'designed that way', 'purity', etc. if you don't want to use particular function (save, load, magic for your imaginary character, whatever), don't use it in YOUR game. Why this holier than you nonsense of "this is the only way THE GAME" should be played? Don't like save function, don't use it. simple. but please don't dictate others how they should behave or what they should do, stinks of elitism, and not a good sight to behold. respectfully.


As using XCOM as example, game I greatly enjoy, no issues with permadeath as an option (if you want to have it). However, option and not a requirement. I hope you understand the difference.

Er, I was referring to games in which the play-style is dictated by the game's mechanics. Doom is not a stealth game, it cannot be a stealth game, because upon entering a room, the NPCs know you are there and head to attack you. You can kill things with a chainsaw or a shotgun, but you're still gonna be killing things.

Thief 1/2's game modes beyond 'durr u r teh pc' mandate that you kill nobody, and so stealth/knocking people out is how you play the game, period. You aren't 'permitted' to kill people because the game doesn't let you. Aka it's designed with that playstyle in mind.

TES games let you stealth, blow stuff up with fire, stab things with arrows, or whatever you want, hence you can play with what playstyle you prefer. The game is designed the way it is designed and ranting on a message board because a game has permadeath and you don't like it makes no sense. It's like complaining that you can't tighten a screw with a hammer, that some hammer designer is restricting you from building things the way you want to.

So yeah, not really sure where your tirade was going.

 

[bystander36]

Er, I was referring to games in which the play-style is dictated by the game's mechanics. Doom is not a stealth game, it cannot be a stealth game, because upon entering a room, the NPCs know you are there and head to attack you. You can kill things with a chainsaw or a shotgun, but you're still gonna be killing things.

I thought Far Cry was the most awesome game because they got stealth right. The original stood out for me, but even the the 3rd (I didn't play the others) was fun in that respect. Stealth was simply using the environment, and they let you use the environment well.

 

[Scooby Doo]

I thought Far Cry was the most awesome game because they got stealth right. The original stood out for me, but even the the 3rd (I didn't play the others) was fun in that respect. Stealth was simply using the environment, and they let you use the environment well.

Farcry 1, they could spot you a mile away but couldn't see you hiding in a bush right next their feet.

 

[bystander36]

Farcry 1, they could spot you a mile away but couldn't see you hiding in a bush right next their feet.

I never noticed them seeing you a mile away, unless there was a guard tower and you stood on a road.

 

[Raduque]

Simas - permadeath and the RNG is pretty much the entire point of roguelikes. If you took away those, or changed it, the challenge would no longer be in place for those who enjoy them.

Plus, it wouldn't actually be a roguelike anymore.

I think you just shouldn't play them if you don't like the style.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I never noticed them seeing you a mile away, unless there was a guard tower and you stood on a road.

No, he's right. If you moved the wrong way while walking in a mile radius of an NPC it might insta-trigger the entire camp on alert (ridiculous, how was everyone made aware instantly?) but they'd walk right next to you sitting in a bush full of 2 dimensional leaves and be all 'herpaderp someone just murdered a half dozen people but it's been 60 seconds I guess I should just walk quietly back to my spot now!'.

Most games don't get stealth right because you have to code the AI into idiot mode (either hyper-alert or hyper-stupid) due to lack of true AI/intuition. I personally loved the thief series but those were just as bad, they'd literally be walking *into* your character unable to get to the corner of the room you're hiding in, and still not detect you because your 'can be detected' threshold was below value x.

 

[bystander36]

No, he's right. If you moved the wrong way while walking in a mile radius of an NPC it might insta-trigger the entire camp on alert (ridiculous, how was everyone made aware instantly?) but they'd walk right next to you sitting in a bush full of 2 dimensional leaves and be all 'herpaderp someone just murdered a half dozen people but it's been 60 seconds I guess I should just walk quietly back to my spot now!'.

Most games don't get stealth right because you have to code the AI into idiot mode (either hyper-alert or hyper-stupid) due to lack of true AI/intuition. I personally loved the thief series but those were just as bad, they'd literally be walking *into* your character unable to get to the corner of the room you're hiding in, and still not detect you because your 'can be detected' threshold was below value x.

A "mile" a way is a long way. I know they weren't seeing you that far, except maybe a guard tower. They saw you far, but not a mile worth.

The fact is, Far cry did not use a stealth mode that made you invisible as Skyrim and so many other games do. You used the environment to basically hide. Maybe it wasn't perfect, but it's far better than most anything else out there.

 

[Concillian]

Kinda resurrecting a thread here, but since Darkest Dungeon went on sale today, I was realizing that I love permadeath games.

Back in the day I played a lot of roguelikes (Moria, Nethack, Angband and ADOM) I save scummed a lot and thought there was no way people actually played these and won without save scumming. More recently I've played (and beat) ADOM after the Steam release without scumming and it was actually not so bad, as long as you really think about each death. Why did it happen, what could I have done to avoid it. Many time I had overlooked an item in my pack like a wand of teleportation or a potion of booze I could have recharged a wand with, or I made a poor planning decision like not taking on content before obtaining some kind of insurance item (a certain resist, potion, wand, etc...) The gravity of death makes your decisions matter. YOU are in control of what happens vs. so many games where you're just a puppet in a script.

Surviving is not (entirely) luck, it's learning game mechanics intimately and learning what is necessary for each difficult fight. Learning what to run from and how to be prepared enough to be able to run from fights . Okay sure, an elf rogue or wizard can be luck if you don't find a decent helmet and get smushed by a ceiling trap, but I've now completed 2 'let fate decide' characters and the game that was at one time insanely difficult to me, is now something that I consider pretty easy. There is some satisfaction associated with making that transition from noob getting CRUSHED to mastering the game mechanics in much the same way that you start a multiplayer game like Starcraft at the bottom of the ladder, getting crushed, and work your way up to a much higher competitive level due to application of learning.

Now I only play either multiplayer games or permadeath games. Given that I am 40+ with a family and serious career responsibilities, I don't really have the consistent time it takes to master multiplayer games, so it's mostly the single player permadeath games I've been enjoying. I tried with League of Legends a few years back, at like 4 matches a week, the game changes too fast. I broke into gold and pretty much quit.

I tried to get into the Witcher series and it was just boring. With such a focus on the story, the game mechanics seem incredibly dumbed down, I never even got close to finishing Witcher 1 and 2, or Skyrim either, feels like I might as well just watch a movie. Your decisions matter but on such a small scale, you learn what you need to pass the boss and then you're done... It's like high school. You learn the information, take the test and forget it. You don't need to commit it to memory because you can always just re-load if you forget again next time. The XCOM re-boot though... 400+ hours in it, most of those in Ironman. Diablo III hardcore, yes many hours in it (mostly solo). Haven't played Don't Starve, but a different survival game (The Long Dark early access sandbox... gorgeous FPS survival game, with a brutally steep learning curve like roguelikes have. Story mode is out Aug 1, but not sure how much I'll like story mode.) And now that Darkest Dungeon is 10 bucks I'll be diving headlong into that.

Bring on the permadeath games.
Love it.

 

[HumblePie]

Perma death works great for some game designs, and not so much for others. Enter the Gungeon! Oh yah baby. Binding of Issac? Sure!

Personally though I like options. Which is why I like hardcore modes with perma death vs not. That way if I feel like an extra challenge I can go right for it. Otherwise if I don't I am not forced into it. The only games with forced perma death that work well are small episodic games IMHO like the two I mentioned at the start.

 

[XenaBard]

Truly hate it! Been gaming since the 80’s. Investing time/energy/resources into a game just to lose it all wasn’t fun - it was just annoying. (There was no way to save back then.) I don’t understand the nostalgia for the early days when graphics were primitive (pixelated, blocky characters) and saving progress was unheard of.

I just heard a developer say that permadeath encourages the gamer to be “so much more invested” in the game. I admit that this is just my personal opinion, but permadeath makes me feel just the opposite... I am a space game enthusiast. I can’t be bothered putting heart & soul into a ship/fleet/campaign knowing that I am going to be forced to start from scratch. If I want that, I can simply start a new game!

I get it that some people love living on the edge. So...FINE if permadeath is optional. But, personally, I avoid games that make it mandatory. (Shrugs) But I also can’t stand turn-based combat!!!

 

[Borealis7]

about permadeath or "hardcore" mode, it's really not for me...
i play Path of Exile now (but the same could be said about any game with "hardcore" mode) and i keep seeing these streamers on Youtube doing hardcore runs and dying to stupid stuff. i don't get it, there is absolutely no tangible advantage in playing hardcore except for showing off.

the only permadeath or "whats done is done" game i enjoyed was Warhammer: Mordheim - city of the damned. you build your squad over many missions, but one mistake and you could be ruined, there are no saves.

 

[bystander36]

I just finished Divinity Original Sin 2 on Honored mode. It was exciting, and added a level of challenge. There were a few attempts, because I explored things which instantly killed you without a way to avoid it, and in most cases, you had no idea you were walking into a trap.

This did affect me when I got to Arx. Instead of exploring and trying to do all the side quests, I was very quick to jump to the end, because I noticed that every new act had more and more instant death traps that you couldn't foresee. Now that I've accomplished that goal, I have to replay a new character to reach Arx and explorer the area more, as you can't go back to an older save.

I don't mind having the perma-death option, but not as the only option, as it definitely takes away the ability to explore a game fully.

 

[GibbyPruchesi]

I've played Darkest Dungeon and the permadeath of characters there is quite a pain. As your characters level up they refuse to go to lower level dungeons so at least there's no way to avoid danger and play it safe. It's great though because it forces you to really think about your strategy and preparation in higher level encounters. But I tend to avoid it in games where it is not forced like in Terraria because there really is no point, you can just ramp up the difficulty in other ways, not interested in doing the same thing over and over.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Screw permadeath. I don't play games to get punished.

 

[zinfamous]

Screw permadeath. I don't play games to get punished.

seriously, this. ain't nobody got time for that nonsense.

 

[Artorias]

Faster than Light(FTL) is a great example of game being enhanced because of perma-death. Without it would be a boring and bland game.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Permadeath for short based games (Like up to 2 hours) can be quite fun. Permadeath on games where you can invest up to 10+ Hours on a single game is pretty damn stupid (to me). Again, permadeath here is assuming no save-game states of any sort and starting over some scratch. It also assumes that it is quite easy to die... Combine those features with a 40+ hour compaign and you have a waste of time on your hands.

One game that comes to mind is Angband. While a fun game, playing with Permadeath is not fun at all. Who would want to spend hundreds of hours only to die to a glitch or bad RNG, or even a poor call of judgement? Every seen the movie ground hogs day? Yeah, who wants to play the same 2 hour intro every time, hoping to get past your 3rd hour in a 40+ hour game? Sounds like insanity to me. Yes, this is just my opinion.

 

[Rifter]

Faster than Light(FTL) is a great example of game being enhanced because of perma-death. Without it would be a boring and bland game.

Yeah, this true

 

[PISTON1246]

Arcade game and only one quarter or credit because some games charge more than a quarter.