Tim Sweeny on 3DFX Demise

[Traumahound]

Read it here.

Some juicy quotes, like this one:



<< NVidia needs to bury the whole Gigapixel chunking architecture they're inhereting. It was a horrible idea. ... Let's hope NVidia kills the damn thing once and for all. >>

 

[Deeko]

I'm too lazy to read the whole article, but, this person must be an idiot. Tile based rendering is so much more efficiant than regular rendering. Look at the Kyro, look at the Dreamcast. Two prime examples. Dave should teach whoever said that a lesson

 

[jpprod]

The GeForce had T&amp;L but few games took advantage of it; the Voodoo had a fill rate advantage.

Is Sweeney on crack - WTF is he talking about here

 

[Blackhawk2]

No offense but I think Tim Sweeny is a weeny. His own game Unreal Tournament had half-@ssed OpenGL support and still does, let alone any support for T&amp;L, he's a hypocrite. And WTF does Sweeny or Carmack know about hardware?!? These guys are programmers NOT ASIC engineers like my bro. Again you know what they say about opinions, there like @ssholes everyones got one...

Btw I am also a programmer so I should know what I'm talking about. I haven't built a game but I've used glut to build an OpenGL window, and I've done numerous other things like building my own TCP UDP programs and FTP clients. I use Visual Basic 6, Visual C++ 6, ORACLE, Microsoft Access,Micosoft SQL Server, Sybase, PowerBuilder, and am learning right now how to build my own multimedia webpages with HTML &amp; XHTML as well as building my own Winsock2 TCP/UDP wrapper. Enough experience?

Oh and I've graduated with a degree in exactly that, programming.

If Sweeny knew better than ASIC engineers he would be building the hardware but he isn't, so there is your answer.

 

[Traumahound]

For those who don't know, Tim Sweeny is the guy who wrote the Unreal Tournament engine. He's not just some Joe Blow; he is an important game devoloper.

 

[DominoBoy]

OOPS wrong thread.

 

[Deeko]

I didn't even read who said it, even though it was in the title But yes I do know who he is....and I still think he's an idiot for saying that.

 

[Sunner]

Cant really say I respect Sweeny that much.
Lets face it, the Unreal engine isnt all that, the content of UT is what makes people like it.

At the difference from id and Carmack, the Q3 engine is nothing short of a technological masterpiece.

But anyway, Blackhawk, I think you underestimate their knowledge about 3D hardware.
I dont know much they know about hardware in general, but I find it extremely hard to believe that someone could write such a masterpiece as the Q3 engine without knowing a great deal about how the hardware that will run it works.

 

[Blackhawk2]

They know how to &quot;use it.&quot; That doesn't mean they &quot;understand it.&quot; I know how to use a microwave, but does that mean I can build one?

All Carmack and Sweeny do is call a bunch of functions in the OpenGL API, for people that don't understand programming that may be magic but to me its the equivalent of grade 12 math. OpenGL is the interface to the hardware built by SGI, Carmack and Sweeny are mearly users of someone elses creation.

 

[Soccerman]

actually, I'd have to disagree with you Blackhawk. programmers often know what they need far in advance of when hardware can give it to them. T&amp;L? so what? it was done long ago on high end cards (for movies).

his comments are pretty dumb, if you ask me..

however, you cannot say that he is biased against nVidia. if he hates Deferred rendering, then he hates it, that would also mean that he doesn't (or didn't) like 3dfx all that much.

of course, Unreal was in developement for so long (2 years? I don't remember) and the UT engine isn't that much different then the original Unreal. don't bash a 4 year old design for competing with a 1 year old one quite well under the circumstances.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Blackhawk2-

You may be able to put Sweeney in that category, but placing Carmack as just another programmer is ignorant in a way that is hard to explain. Without JC, 3dfx may well never have had the kind of success that they did. Carmack gave them the killer app for their Voodoo1, he was ready and waiting with his engine for technology to catch up, and gave the first company to do so the tool they needed to move their product.

Carmack was on 3dfx's board of technical advisors, as he is with most of the 3D hardware companies. The man is considered a visionary by most people in the industry, and I would wager he knows far more about 3D hardware then the overwhelming majority of ASIC engineers.

He not only understands what current 3D hardware is doing, he also has a very solid grasp on what it needs to do to move forward. For quite some time 3dfx was saying that 32bit color was not useful, Carmack mentions that he wants 64bit and all of a sudden they become vocal supporters of it.

Every time he releases a new 3D engine, he pushes the envelope of what 3D hardware, and PC hardware in general can do. Noone else in the industry has proven that they can equal his ability to squeeze the last drop of performance out of such an open platform.

Deeko-

As far as tiling technology goes, why was 3dfx building the Rampage? Since defered rendering is supposedly so great, WTF were they not using it for? Don't give me the they just bought GP crap, they would have come up with their own if it truly was such a great technology.

&quot;Tile based rendering is so much more efficiant than regular rendering. Look at the Kyro, look at the Dreamcast. Two prime examples. Dave should teach whoever said that a lesson&quot;

OK, I'm looking at them... The Kyro isn't that fast, has rendering flaws, can't handle large geometry loads properly, doesn't work with half the features it &quot;supports&quot;(S3TC, Dot3). The Dreamcast is a console, it is in comparison very easy to make a fixed platform look good, tiling or not.

 

[Blackhawk2]

Soccerman, nevermind I agree.
Benskywalker, if JC can't build a video card he obviously doesn't know enough.

Ya Carmack was touting T&amp;L but guess what? It was in OpenGL before he ever made his first true 3d game, yes thats right before Quake.

Benskywalker, name one Dreamcast game where you see a graphical flaw. I don't see any, so the point about rendering defects is moot when the video card is properly designed in hardware and has a good set of drivers.

 

[BenSkywalker]

&quot;Benskywalker, if JC can't build a video card he obviously doesn't know enough.&quot;

You don't think he could? The fact is that Carmack makes a lot more money then the people who work for the 3D hardware companies. I would wager that one if his cars(take his twin turbo F50) costs significantly more then what the average engineer makes in a couple years working for nV or 3dfx.

&quot;Ya Carmack was touting T&amp;L but guess what? It was in OpenGL before he ever made his first true 3d game, yes thats right before Quake.&quot;

Really? Gee whiz I never new that:Q

I was using T&amp;L boards before the Voodoo1 came out, before GLQuake. WTF does hardware T&amp;L have to do with how much Carmack knows about 3D hardware anyway? Why don't you explain that line of logic.

&quot;Benskywalker, name one Dreamcast game where you see a graphical flaw. I don't see any, so the point about rendering defects is moot when the video card is properly designed in hardware and has a good set of drivers.&quot;

Static platform. The fact is to date, they have all had problems on the PC side. Perhaps 3dfx could have worked around that, then you get into the problems with large geometry loads with tilers. There are many, many problems that defered rendering has, the ones I brought up were simply a few that are easily observable.

 

[DaveB3D]

Just wait until the company is dissolved completely and all I'm sure will be shown. who will show it? got me


But Tim has shown is lack of understanding hardware architecture even remotely.. I would trust him on software things, but not hardware...

 

[Blackhawk2]

<<You don't think he could?...>>

No I don't.

<<...Really? Gee whiz I never new that...>>

Glad you learned something.

<<...Carmack mentions that he wants 64bit and all of a sudden they become vocal supporters of it...>>

Ya and I want 32-tap Anisotropic filtering. So what? Its easy to see where the industry is going, infact its quite obvious->Raytracing anyone?

 

[BenSkywalker]

How are you doing Dave? Have you found another job yet?

&quot;But Tim has shown is lack of understanding hardware architecture even remotely.. I would trust him on software things, but not hardware...&quot;

Well, the problems with geometry loads are well known, I know you stated that that wouldn't be an issue as it was a design consideration, but unless Tim knew exactly what you were doing I can understand his scepticism.

I also noticed that you didn't clump JC with him.

 

[Deeko]

BenSkyWalker, I'm afraid to argue with you....cause you will more than likely prove me wrong at everything I say....but oh well. They began working on Rampage long ago....back then pretty much noone had deffered rendering, it wasn't a big thing at all back then, I suppose. As to the Kyro, you're right it's not great, but it does almost keep up, even with it's slow clock speeds. And as to Dreamcast, I know it can't be directly compared, but Dreamcast isn't ALL that much worse than PS2(yet), even though based on speed numbers alone the PS2 should destroy it.

There, I know you will prove me wrong, but at least I tried

 

[BenSkywalker]

Deeko-

&quot;They began working on Rampage long ago....back then pretty much noone had deffered rendering, it wasn't a big thing at all back then, I suppose.&quot;

Dave and Kristof were vocal supporters of the technology before they started working on the Rampage(though they were not working at 3dfx at the time).

&quot;As to the Kyro, you're right it's not great, but it does almost keep up, even with it's slow clock speeds.&quot;

I apologize if I am giving the wrong impression on this one, it is NOT poor technology, nor is the Kyro a bad product in any way. I bring up issues as using deffered rendering isn't a cure all, it will not simply vault you into the lead and stomp all the competition by using it. The Kyro is an excellent board that has a few issues, I'm just using it to point out that it isn't some &quot;holy grail&quot; of 3D technology(though Dave may try to convince you otherwise).

&quot;And as to Dreamcast, I know it can't be directly compared, but Dreamcast isn't ALL that much worse than PS2(yet), even though based on speed numbers alone the PS2 should destroy it.&quot;

He!! I'll take it one step further, from what I have seen to date the Dreamcast looks better then the PS2. But again, you are dealing with a fixed platform.

 

[Blackhawk2]

<<...it will not simply vault you into the lead and stomp all the competition by using it...>>

We may never know unless Nvidia actually uses it, but people were saying the Athlon would suck before it came out too

 

[Deeko]

whew, that wasn't so bad, I thought you were gonna rip me apart

 

[DaveB3D]

I'm doing decent. Already talking to some other companies (I won't say who for now) about jobs. So things look decent. If anyone cares to make me an offer, I'm open. Thanks for asking...

Ben, you want 32-tap anisotropic.. Hrm.. kinda low. I was planning for 128-tap anisotropic.. oh well, there goes that idea.

And KYRO might not have been it, but... well lets just wait on that.

 

[BenSkywalker]

&quot;I'm doing decent&quot;

Glad to hear that

&quot;Already talking to some other companies (I won't say who for now) about jobs. So things look decent. If anyone cares to make me an offer, I'm open&quot;

I figured that you would find work quickly, hope you find something that is to your liking

&quot;Ben, you want 32-tap anisotropic.. Hrm.. kinda low. I was planning for 128-tap anisotropic.. oh well, there goes that idea&quot;

Hey, that wasn't me I have been hoping for 64, though 128 would certainly be nice.

&quot;And KYRO might not have been it, but... well lets just wait on that.&quot;

I was wondering about this, are the NDAs going to be null and void now?

 

[DaveB3D]

Well I'm sure come April once the companies is dead the NDA goes..

I'm sure at the very least there could be an anonymous article though, that changes names, etc, etc and explains what happened.

Well, the problems with geometry loads are well known, I know you stated that that wouldn't be an issue as it was a design consideration, but unless Tim knew exactly what you were doing I can understand his scepticism.

Yes, it is a well known issue, if it is an issue with your particular architecture...

As for JC, my experiance has found it to hold true for him as well, but not to this extent.

 

[Soccerman]

Dave, I hope that whatever company you join will vanquish 3dfx's death! hehe.. at least, I hope you do well with your next company, and when you can, spill the beans on what you were working on, so we can feel even more pissed off at nVidia, and 3dfx's managers for destroying 3dfx..

 

[BFG10K]

Sweeny's comments are surprising, especially coming from a man with so much technical expertise.

Blackhawk2:

And WTF does Sweeny or Carmack know about hardware?!?

A *lot* more than you do.

You simply can't put Carmack in the same grouping as Sweeney because Carmack is one of the leaders in the 3D gaming industry. 3D card companies listen to Carmack's advice when deciding what features to implement in their chipsets. Also Carmack is single-handedly responsible for OpenGL becoming a standard 3D API on PCs.

Hell, Carmack has the expertise and probably the finances to start his own 3D card company. So I totally agree with BenSkywalker's comments.