To any theologians here...

[Ameesh]

i was being quite serious, if hes trying to understand something so complex it would probably be a good idea to take a step back and evaluate everything.

 

[Orsorum]

<< i was being quite serious, if hes trying to understand something so complex it would probably be a good idea to take a step back and evaluate everything. >>



Start from the bottom up, kind of like in Mere Christianity?

 

[Texmaster]

Free will is an interesting concept.

The argument: If God is all knowing, how can Man have free will?"

Is a valid Question however man cannot answer the question because to know what it is like to be all knowing you would have to be all knowing yourself

 

[petrek]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth....And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Genesis 1:1-31

God, who is MALE, created everything out of nothing.

Dave

PS Linuxboy, you wrote: "Ah, Whitehead and Griffin. They're good guys.", may I respectfully disagree. When I read that article I saw nothing but lies from the pit of hell, there is nothing good about a person who spreads satanic deception.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< God, who is MALE, created everything out of nothing.

Dave

PS Linuxboy, you wrote: "Ah, Whitehead and Griffin. They're good guys.", may I respectfully disagree. When I read that article I saw nothing but lies from the pit of hell, there is nothing good about a person who spreads satanic deception.
>>



ur not for real right? HAHAHAHA, very funny.

 

[wQuay]

There is obviously no such thing as free will. The real question is, "How can God will/allow evil and not be responsible for it?"

 

[PlatinumGold]

wQuay

there is no question, if your assumption of NO free will is true than God is responsible for all evil.

 

[docmanhattan]

<< There is obviously no such thing as free will. The real question is, "How can God will/allow evil and not be responsible for it?" >>

I think you're mistaken about that and that most Christians would disagree as well. There is free will. That is why we can love. That is also why people can be evil. If God only gave us the option to only be good, it would not exactly be "free" now would it?

 

[petrek]

Platinum Gold, there is nothing funny about it.

"As we have seen, the rejection of creation ex nihilo is fundamental to Griffin's theodicy."

"Another key tenet in Griffin's theodicy is the belief that the world, and everything in it, is the result of evolutionary processes. Griffin takes the evolutionary position as his starting point because he believes the notion that God created the world ex nihilo is an out-dated view which should be rejected..."

"So the issue of why there is evil and suffering in the world is an ontological one whereby the presence of evil and suffering are a necessary correlate of having the potential to realise degrees of goodness in the world ('To have the good is necessarily to risk the bad' (Griffin p.107)). Thus evil and suffering are not present in the world as a result of human 'mis-choice' (the 'freewill defense'), nor do they impinge on God's essential goodness, but are the result of the way things are."

The above quotes were taken from this link.

Scripture states God created out of nothing, Griffin believes God created out of something that already existed (order out of chaos).

Scripture states evil and suffering are the result of sin, Griffin believes they just are.

The Satanic influence on his beliefs are obvious, and there is NOTHING FUNNY ABOUT IT.

Dave

 

[jhu]

<< There is obviously no such thing as free will. The real question is, "How can God will/allow evil and not be responsible for it?" >>

I think you're mistaken about that and that most Christians would disagree as well. There is free will. That is why we can love. That is also why people can be evil. If God only gave us the option to only be good, it would not exactly be "free" now would it?


no, i believe he's right. there is no free will. every single "choice" that you make was determined by everything else that's already happened. you don't have anymore free will than a computer. you just think you do

 

[Texmaster]

<< There is obviously no such thing as free will. The real question is, "How can God will/allow evil and not be responsible for it?" >>



I'll say it again, to understand free well you would have to be all knowing. And since you are not, you can't understand how God can be all knowing and Man have free will.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Petrek

actually it was more your comment of God is a HE that I found really amusing. on a serious note i could call that type of ignorance satanic.

first of all a distinction between male and female would require reproductive organs.

 

[busmaster11]

<< How can God create everything and then discriminate within that creation that which will be restored?
I don't understand why original sin should have the power to pervade every human existance. I can only conclude it is the decision of God. >>


Because "innocent until proven guilty" and "benefit of the doubt" only apply to judicial systems of those that are not omnicient and all-knowing... We have no chance of never commiting or thinking sinful notions... And honest people will own up to that.



<< I don't understand why evil has to exist at all. >>


I believe evil is a what we call it, but what it really is, is greed, selfishness, and ego, that spawns all sinful things...



<< I don't understand why God chose me, either. I've done nothing. I have no identity apart from God. I could have no identity other than what God has chosen for me. But if I had no choice in my calling, why do I now have a choice in obedience? It seems cruel that I've been brought into that most beautiful of relationships only to be subject to a nature that tries to ruin it at every opportunity. I can, daily, walk through a crowd of empty souls. Is it God's will that His message is not preached by me? I can't see that it is." >>


I think you were wise in initially assuming that you don't know what God knows and therefore it would be foolish for you to make assumptions based on relatively limited knowledge and intellect.

Though you may not exist without God, I don't see how you can say it is not your choice to follow Him... God does not decide who His followers are - He calls to every one of us...

I think one reason we live in this world, have free will, and have joys and sorrows, is so that we can decide our destiny - and that if we do end up in hell we can only have ourselves to blame.

 

[JohnnyReb]

The confusion lies in a poor understanding of election and predestination. Calvin was the first to formulate these ideas (hence Calvinism), but he was very much a reactionary to the various extra-Biblical doctrines of the Catholic church. His theology was so anti-works that he denied the inspiritation of the Book of James, and adhered to the idea that salvation is so completely NOT based on works that it is without any part of the believer.

Election is based on God's foreknowledge. Predestination refers to the absolute certainty of the believer being conformed to the image of Christ.

To hold to the view that God chooses some for Salvation and some for damnation requires one to gloss over certain important Scriptures. Calvin addressed these issues, but rather poorly.

It is God's desire that none should perish. When Paul writes of general revelation, he says that those who have not heard the Gospel are without excuse. Excuse of what? To say that they are without excuse of being chosen by God is nonsensical.

I can go into more detail if you need me to. I'm not a theologian, but I have read the Good Book thru a number of times.

When I talk to Calvinist I am amazed that they can hold ideas so repugnant to the mega-context of Scripture.

John

 

[docmanhattan]

jhu sez...

<< no, i believe he's right. there is no free will. every single "choice" that you make was determined by everything else that's already happened. you don't have anymore free will than a computer. you just think you do >>



tex sez...

<< I'll say it again, to understand free well you would have to be all knowing. And since you are not, you can't understand how God can be all knowing and Man have free will. >>

Can either of you cite passages to support this? I'm trying to find where I'm saw this and will post once I do.

 

[busmaster11]

<< Free will is an interesting concept.

The argument: If God is all knowing, how can Man have free will?"

Is a valid Question however man cannot answer the question because to know what it is like to be all knowing you would have to be all knowing yourself >>


Two answers - either one should be sufficient. God is all-knowing, but he doesn't have to intervene, so we can have the will to make our choices. Also, He trancends time - which we should all know by now, isn't linear. It has a beginning and probably an end.

 

[petrek]

Platinum Gold, God is MALE.

Dave

 

[Texmaster]

<< jhu sez...

<< no, i believe he's right. there is no free will. every single "choice" that you make was determined by everything else that's already happened. you don't have anymore free will than a computer. you just think you do >>



tex sez...

<< I'll say it again, to understand free well you would have to be all knowing. And since you are not, you can't understand how God can be all knowing and Man have free will. >>

Can either of you cite passages to support this? I'm trying to find where I'm saw this and will post once I do. >>



Its a philisopical question. I came to the conclusion studying the question.

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<< Free will is an interesting concept.

The argument: If God is all knowing, how can Man have free will?"

Is a valid Question however man cannot answer the question because to know what it is like to be all knowing you would have to be all knowing yourself >>


Two answers - either one should be sufficient. God is all-knowing, but he doesn't have to intervene, so we can have the will to make our choices. Also, He trancends time - which we should all know by now, isn't linear. It has a beginning and probably an end. >>



Hiya Buss!

Either way, its all about Faith baby

 

[PlatinumGold]

Johnny Reb

Calvinism Emphasis God's Sovereignty over all and suggests that God Election is final.

Armeniasm emphasizes mans free will at the cost of God's Sovereingty.

both points of view don't fit in with scripture.

My personal view is, God Initiates Initial Spiritual Rebirth Process and it is Man's choice to accept or reject that Spiritual Rebirth.

Man does not have free will. There are many definitions of Sin, I have two that I feel most adequately describe the Condition, First Sin is Separation from God. No connection, no ability to make that connection. 2nd No Free will. What is free will, does anyone or can anyone truly have free will, in the Christian Universe using the most extreme definition of Free will, Only God has free will. but that's not the definition that applies to man. Man cannot will himself to overcome gravity (w/o the use of foreign aids) and just FLY. Man cannot will his physical stature to expand limitlessly. There are many things that men cannot do, but by FREE WILL, we are talking ONLY about the ability to choose HIS OWN DESTINY. All men are born W/O that ability. It is only the SPIRIT of GOD that gives us that ability.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Petrek

hehehe, what are you southern baptist? do you also believe that ONLY the KING JAMES VERSION IS THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[docmanhattan]

<<

<< jhu sez...

<< no, i believe he's right. there is no free will. every single "choice" that you make was determined by everything else that's already happened. you don't have anymore free will than a computer. you just think you do >>



tex sez...

<< I'll say it again, to understand free well you would have to be all knowing. And since you are not, you can't understand how God can be all knowing and Man have free will. >>

Can either of you cite passages to support this? I'm trying to find where I'm saw this and will post once I do. >>



Its a philisopical question. I came to the conclusion studying the question. >>

Well, then I will stick to my guns, if you will since you don't have scripture to back up your conclusion.

I believe there are passages that speak of our free will, I just need to find them again.

 

[petrek]

Platinum Gold, yes I do believe only the KJ Version is the infallible word of God.

Dave

 

[PlatinumGold]

Petrek

you just lost all credibility here.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Its a philisopical question. I came to the conclusion studying the question. Well, then I will stick to my guns, if you will since you don't have scripture to back up your conclusion.

I believe there are passages that speak of our free will, I just need to find them again. >>




Yes of course there are as there are passages that say God is not Linear therefore time doesn't matter and thereofore God does not interfere in free will