Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: Muse
"Yes we can." That's the mantra. Ditch your cynicism.
Why? Give me one good explanation as to how Obama is significantly different from any other Democratic politician in terms of policy, voting record, or any other concrete political measure.
ZV
Originally posted by: Ballatician
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: Muse
"Yes we can." That's the mantra. Ditch your cynicism.
Why? Give me one good explanation as to how Obama is significantly different from any other Democratic politician in terms of policy, voting record, or any other concrete political measure.
ZV
Whether or not this is the "turning point" this is a historic moment. I don't know why you can't understand that but perhaps it has something to do with you not being part of the race that had to fight for equality and fight to be treated like humans.
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
Originally posted by: loki8481
every gay rights issue on the ballots across this country went down in flames.
I'm not especially proud of America today.
At least one good thing in the nation happened last night.
The whole "gay rights" thing is stupid. It is more putting gays on a higher level than straight people. People are people. If some want to be gay, that's their problem, but they can do so. But forcing people to like it is the issue.
Wait a minute, giving gay people the same rights as straight people is now putting them on a higher level? What moon logic is this?
Nobody's forcing you to like anything, the Constitution requires that the government not become an arm of your bigotry.
Are you talking federal or state constitution? I have no problem with gay marriage, but I don't think it's protected by the US Constitution either.
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: Ballatician
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: Muse
"Yes we can." That's the mantra. Ditch your cynicism.
Why? Give me one good explanation as to how Obama is significantly different from any other Democratic politician in terms of policy, voting record, or any other concrete political measure.
ZV
Whether or not this is the "turning point" this is a historic moment. I don't know why you can't understand that but perhaps it has something to do with you not being part of the race that had to fight for equality and fight to be treated like humans.
That's an emotional reason. Give me a logical one. I am not reachable with emotion-based arguments.
Also, it's "an" historic moment.
ZV
Originally posted by: eskimospy
1.) It's not 'an' historic moment. "An" is used before vowels generally, a before consonants. I looked it up and apparently a minority (but a sizeable one) say 'an historic' and so it is also considered an acceptable use, but it does not follow standard grammar and it is not technically correct.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
2.) It is historic, and it's historic for the reasons you mentioned. Presidents are not defined by their policies but by the sum total effect of their presidency on the country. For a place with such a tradition of toxic racism to elect a black man to their highest office by a considerable margin is historic. When Nelson Mandela was elected to head South Africa was it not historic because his policies weren't anything special? Of course not.
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Don't get me wrong . Its great that all men can become president. But Until the AMERICAN indian has its own self governing nation. This is all smoke and mirrors.
USA helped bring Isreal back into being after over 2000 years. If our drive to do right by the jews can be justified the same must be done for the Native AMERican . You can't have it both ways without lieing to ones self.
You all think last night was great . I don't . I see it as how it should have been all along. Funny that.
But it really sucks for Obama. He was handed one hell of a miss. I bet he doesn't accomplish 1 thing greater than last nights event.
My whole life I have had problems looking into peoples eyes. Its like I can see them for what they are. I hate it. Last night Iheard things in peoples tone. and eyes that frankly scared the hell out of me.
Many tho in the Black company their eyes filled me with joy. You could see the gleam . its was wonderful . I only seen 1 blackmans eyes who bothered me last night.
Also McCain speech was almost as good as Obamas. Ya see I never had the mountain to climb so I could overcome. I never thought I would here a black man use the Little train that could . Like Obama did impressive if your 5 years old.
I can't wait to see how Obama uses the internet to get his way by reaching out to the masses.
As history repeats its self. I grab the popcorn and watch the fools follow. This is going to be so cool. Me I think the big winner last not has nothing to do with politics. It served only to get us to were we have to go to find were we been.
Originally posted by: ch33zw1z
Originally posted by: tamaron
I am really glad of this victory, but what I like most is the fact that we are free of that stupid ex-president. The worst USA president that I know: two wars, broken economy, no social policy and proud to be uneducated.
He was a BIG danger, and by extension, he made that the people of the world felt that America was a danger too... very sad... and a false statement that you CAN change americans.
And he's still in office for 3 more months...:thumbsdown:
Originally posted by: Ryan
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Don't get me wrong . Its great that all men can become president. But Until the AMERICAN indian has its own self governing nation. This is all smoke and mirrors.
USA helped bring Isreal back into being after over 2000 years. If our drive to do right by the jews can be justified the same must be done for the Native AMERican . You can't have it both ways without lieing to ones self.
You all think last night was great . I don't . I see it as how it should have been all along. Funny that.
But it really sucks for Obama. He was handed one hell of a miss. I bet he doesn't accomplish 1 thing greater than last nights event.
My whole life I have had problems looking into peoples eyes. Its like I can see them for what they are. I hate it. Last night Iheard things in peoples tone. and eyes that frankly scared the hell out of me.
Many tho in the Black company their eyes filled me with joy. You could see the gleam . its was wonderful . I only seen 1 blackmans eyes who bothered me last night.
Also McCain speech was almost as good as Obamas. Ya see I never had the mountain to climb so I could overcome. I never thought I would here a black man use the Little train that could . Like Obama did impressive if your 5 years old.
I can't wait to see how Obama uses the internet to get his way by reaching out to the masses.
As history repeats its self. I grab the popcorn and watch the fools follow. This is going to be so cool. Me I think the big winner last not has nothing to do with politics. It served only to get us to were we have to go to find were we been.
Wait...what?
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: eskimospy
1.) It's not 'an' historic moment. "An" is used before vowels generally, a before consonants. I looked it up and apparently a minority (but a sizeable one) say 'an historic' and so it is also considered an acceptable use, but it does not follow standard grammar and it is not technically correct.
Standard grammar says that "an" should be used before words that begin with "h" and have an un-stressed first syllable. Modern users of the language have corrupted grammar to the extent that "a historic" is now used by many people, but it remains a corruption. See also the modern use of "cactuses" and "octopuses" as the plurals for "cactus" and "octopus".
Originally posted by: eskimospy
2.) It is historic, and it's historic for the reasons you mentioned. Presidents are not defined by their policies but by the sum total effect of their presidency on the country. For a place with such a tradition of toxic racism to elect a black man to their highest office by a considerable margin is historic. When Nelson Mandela was elected to head South Africa was it not historic because his policies weren't anything special? Of course not.
Again, my argument is not that it will not be called historic, but rather that it should not, with "should" in this case indicating that, were it possible, I would will it that the condition of this country were such that the President's race was completely a non-issue. It is lamentable that we are allowing Obama's race to overshadow his qualifications and doubly lamentable that those of us who say that race shouldn't matter have to field veiled accusations of prejudice.
Nelson Mandella represented a major political shift in South Africa. He was the first president to be elected in a fully-representative democratic election. That's a hugely special political change. The transition to democratic rule was revolutionary in South Africa at the time. There were huge shifts in governmental style during his tenure as president. Those are legitimate reasons for an election to be historic.
The situation here is that a long-time member of an established political party was elected by the same process used in previous elections and that the overall form of government will not be changed significantly.
ZV
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
By and large, the people who are calling this "historic" are middle-class white folks who want to be able to pat themselves on the back and use this as reassurance that they really aren't prejudiced because, after all, they just elected an African American to the Presidency.
ZV
Originally posted by: Muse
Originally posted by: mooseracing
It's not really a great day. 96% of the black vote was for Obama, nearly all the black people that voted said they were happy to finally be able to vote black. By Obamas handout plans the country is going to get into an even larger deficit.
This election showed how racist the races that are complaing aout equal rights are.
My friend, the fact of blacks voting for Obama is not racist. Do you know what racism is? Look into it. Can you imagine what it's been like for black Americans? They have looked at the political leadership at the top in this country and seen a white man far longer than anyone can remember (the entire history of the country). They didn't dare hope that they'd ever see anything but a white man there. I don't fault 96% of them for voting for Obama. I'm only wondering why the other 4% didn't, to be frank with you.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
As for the a/an issue I will refer you to a site that catalogs the common errors that crop up in the english language: here. It is not an unstressed H, it is an unspoken H that is the exception, such as in 'honest'.
ReferenceOne tricky case comes up from time to time: is it "a historic occasion" or "an historic occasion"? Some speakers favor the latter ? more British than American speakers, but you'll find them in both places ? using an on longish words (three or more syllables) beginning with h, where the first syllable isn't accented. They'd say, for instance, "a hístory textbook" (accent on the first syllable) but "an históric event." (Likewise "a hábit" but "an habítual offender," "a hýpothetical question" but "an hypóthesis.") Still, most guides prefer a before any h that's sounded: "a historic occasion," "a hysterical joke," "a habitual offender" ? but "an honor" and "an hour" because those h's aren't sounded.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The elevation of a long oppressed minority to the executive leadership and head of state for a country is historic. Particularly when that country's founding document declared that minority to be only slightly over half of a person. History is not based solely upon policy shifts, but the cultural makeup of a country too. The first expression of this new makeup is by any estimate, a historic event.
Well that all depends and what happens in the next 4 to 8 years.Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
I agree that this will be considered an historic event in history books. However, I do not believe that it should be.
ZV
do you really not realize how many whites voted for McCain because he was white? the time for your ignorance and hate is over, you should just disappear for a while.Originally posted by: boomerang
You're completely missing the point. When you vote based on the color of a candidate's skin, it's racism. This election has not changed racism one bit in America.Originally posted by: tamaron
Originally posted by: boomerang
The people here don't want to hear these truths mooseracing. Let them think we're united. It makes them calm.Originally posted by: mooseracing
It's not really a great day. 96% of the black vote was for Obama, nearly all the black people that voted said they were happy to finally be able to vote black. By Obamas handout plans the country is going to get into an even larger deficit.
This election showed how racist the races that are complaing aout equal rights are.
So are you divided then?
Try to imagine how the black people have been living in USA for decades, centuries, now imagine yourself as a black man, next see two options: a white anglo-saxon religious conservative man and a Black progressist.
Are telling me that your vote could be white? I don't believe it.
It's a REACTION. For the first time the black people have seen a person who had real chance to get in the White House.
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Muse
Originally posted by: mooseracing
It's not really a great day. 96% of the black vote was for Obama, nearly all the black people that voted said they were happy to finally be able to vote black. By Obamas handout plans the country is going to get into an even larger deficit.
This election showed how racist the races that are complaing aout equal rights are.
My friend, the fact of blacks voting for Obama is not racist. Do you know what racism is? Look into it. Can you imagine what it's been like for black Americans? They have looked at the political leadership at the top in this country and seen a white man far longer than anyone can remember (the entire history of the country). They didn't dare hope that they'd ever see anything but a white man there. I don't fault 96% of them for voting for Obama. I'm only wondering why the other 4% didn't, to be frank with you.
/me wonders why when they looked at the political leadership at the top - they didn't see a President and instead saw a "white man".
:shrug;
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
You know, I really question the "America should be proud" comments and the "this is an historic moment" comments. I mean, let's look at what really happened:
What happened was the landslide victory of a Democratic candidate from a city renowned for creating strong politicians at a time when there is overwhelming disgust with the incumbent and when the incumbent's party is directionless and fragmented. Frankly, in this election, the Democratic party ought to have been able to put a head of cabbage up as their candidate and still manage a victory. No-one in his or her right mind would have thought that there was any significant chance of a Republican victory regardless of candidates.
What, then, makes this "historic"? What makes it a "great event"? Obama is educated, intelligent, and has an exceptional presence in public. He is the sort of candidate that is an obvious choice and an obvious winner. There is nothing new or unusual about Obama's policies; his platform is solidly Democratic. His voting record shows no more real attempts at bipartisanship than any other politician's does. In every way, Obama is a typical Democratic candidate. He is an extremely good typical Democratic candidate, but policy-wise he is little different from Clinton, Carter, or Johnson. So why is this historic?
It's not.
I am interested to see how Obama fares. I think he has the ability to do quite well and I hope that he is able to take advantage of his potential, but I hardly think that this is an historic event.
By and large, the people who are calling this "historic" are middle-class white folks who want to be able to pat themselves on the back and use this as reassurance that they really aren't prejudiced because, after all, they just elected an African American to the Presidency.
ZV
Why do you hate America?
What the hell...?
Can you re-phrase that into something that at least comes within shouting distance of making sense? Perhaps an actual academic response to the legitimate points that I've brought up?
ZV
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
You know, I really question the "America should be proud" comments and the "this is an historic moment" comments. I mean, let's look at what really happened:
What happened was the landslide victory of a Democratic candidate from a city renowned for creating strong politicians at a time when there is overwhelming disgust with the incumbent and when the incumbent's party is directionless and fragmented. Frankly, in this election, the Democratic party ought to have been able to put a head of cabbage up as their candidate and still manage a victory. No-one in his or her right mind would have thought that there was any significant chance of a Republican victory regardless of candidates.
What, then, makes this "historic"? What makes it a "great event"? Obama is educated, intelligent, and has an exceptional presence in public. He is the sort of candidate that is an obvious choice and an obvious winner. There is nothing new or unusual about Obama's policies; his platform is solidly Democratic. His voting record shows no more real attempts at bipartisanship than any other politician's does. In every way, Obama is a typical Democratic candidate. He is an extremely good typical Democratic candidate, but policy-wise he is little different from Clinton, Carter, or Johnson. So why is this historic?
It's not.
I am interested to see how Obama fares. I think he has the ability to do quite well and I hope that he is able to take advantage of his potential, but I hardly think that this is an historic event.
By and large, the people who are calling this "historic" are middle-class white folks who want to be able to pat themselves on the back and use this as reassurance that they really aren't prejudiced because, after all, they just elected an African American to the Presidency.
ZV
Why do you hate America?
What the hell...?
Can you re-phrase that into something that at least comes within shouting distance of making sense? Perhaps an actual academic response to the legitimate points that I've brought up?
ZV
It was a joke. Isn't that what all the Bushies used to say anytime someone questioned his policies or idealologies?
I know, you're not a Democrat nor a Republican. You threw your vote away on a third party candidate who had a zero...point...zero chance of winning this election.
You seem to have this lofty notion of what America should be but it doesn't fit with reality. This election may not mean anything to you but to millions of Americans it is a watershed moment in our history.
Would it be nice if America were colorblind? Sure. But that just isn't the truth. I have a question for you, do you think the Secret Service will take extra precautions because of Obama's skin color and the fact that he's the first African American President? Personally, I think they'd be fools not to.
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: MrColin
I stepped outside to see and hear what was going on. Hundreds or maybe thousands of people were out in the streets, what they were chanting was "UNITY!"
If that sort of herd mentality doesn't absolutely scare the living shit out of you, there's something seriously wrong inside your head.
ZV
Originally posted by: loki8481
every gay rights issue on the ballots across this country went down in flames.
I'm not especially proud of America today.