Trapping Light

hawk16

Member
Jul 10, 2004
34
0
0
Would it be possible to trap light, this is a hypothatical explanation of what im asking. I know its not possible to do it fast enough.

If you made a room of all mirrors, completely mirrors, no material AT ALL that absorbed light. And you say had a flashlight and shined a light inside this mirror room and somehow you were able to close the mirror door faster then light. Would the light get trapped in there and stay lit or would it just disapate?

Like i said before, hypothetically speaking...
 

futuristicmonkey

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,031
0
76
I think the issue with this is how are you going to watch it to see if it stays lit?

Cutting a hole will let the light out, and putting a camera in there would also dissipate the light, when it hit's the surface of the camera.

It might be one of those "if a tree falls in a forest...." type of deals.
 

futuristicmonkey

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,031
0
76
Then you probably will see that it is illuminated.

Now that I think about it, I was watching a show on Discovery Channel, about string theory i think...anyways - they talked about using a photonic clock. It works basically the same way as your room of mirrors...

At the bottom is a light source perpendicular to a slidable mirror, which can cover the light source. At the top is a mirror parrallel to the bottom mirror. To start the clock, you turn slide the bottom mirror out of the way, turn on the light, then slide the mirror back into position under the top mirror. If that works..then why not your room of mirrors?

___ <- top mirror
| .
| . <- path of photon
| .
| .
|___ <- bottom, slideable mirror
|
|_^_ <- light source

 

Powermoloch

Lifer
Jul 5, 2005
10,084
4
76
Originally posted by: hawk16
Would it be possible to trap light, this is a hypothatical explanation of what im asking. I know its not possible to do it fast enough.

If you made a room of all mirrors, completely mirrors, no material AT ALL that absorbed light. And you say had a flashlight and shined a light inside this mirror room and somehow you were able to close the mirror door faster then light. Would the light get trapped in there and stay lit or would it just disapate?

Like i said before, hypothetically speaking...


Dude....I was thinking of that same Idea when I was several years old...what a small world we lived in.
 

piddlefoot

Senior member
May 11, 2005
226
0
0
As l understand it even if we trapped light in a perfectly round mirror sphear, at some piont light would dissapate, for theres refraction in the glass of the mirror, and as l understand it not all of the light or photon energy is transferred in a deflection or reflection, leaving the light beam weaker over time, and light being so fast it would be a short amount of time as we measure it.
And if we did trap it what use would it be, being so limited in mass and energy ?
 

mdchesne

Banned
Feb 27, 2005
2,810
1
0
it's like "does the light stay on in my refridgerator?"

you won't be able to observe it because in order to do so, you need to absorb light. whether on your retina or on a light-sensitive diode. trapping light would be more feasable if you slow it down so it forms matter. Then pocket the matter that forms and put it in a cage. congrads, you captured light. (in all seriousness, this is how you capture light)
 

piddlefoot

Senior member
May 11, 2005
226
0
0
to lideral, its a hypathetical, theorised.
And what you talk about really is just a solar panel that traps photons...
This idea he spat out if you read it is question about the fundamentals of light, not whether humans can see this happen.
So put light in a trap / one he described.
Light is already matter / photons and many other particals make up our sun light.


 

MAW1082

Senior member
Jun 17, 2003
510
7
81
Originally posted by: hawk16
Would it be possible to trap light, this is a hypothatical explanation of what im asking. I know its not possible to do it fast enough.

If you made a room of all mirrors, completely mirrors, no material AT ALL that absorbed light. And you say had a flashlight and shined a light inside this mirror room and somehow you were able to close the mirror door faster then light. Would the light get trapped in there and stay lit or would it just disapate?

Like i said before, hypothetically speaking...

Well this is a very interesting question with a very complex answer. IN fact, the solution lies within the realm of quantum mechanics.

Ecen though it would seem impossible for light to escape this "box," there actually would be a finite possibilty that it would escape.

For instance, it would seem impossible for a rubber ball to travel through a brick wall if it was traveling directly at it. In the world of quantum mechanics things like this can actually happen. It's a very interesting subject, if you're willing to read about some mind-bending and counter-intuitive realities.
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
1,547
0
0
What you are describing is more or less cavity-QED where a high-Q cavity is used to "trap" light (this is not exactly correct, but close enough).
This gives rise to many interesting quantum mechanical phenomena.

Try googling for "cavity QED"


 

mdchesne

Banned
Feb 27, 2005
2,810
1
0
Originally posted by: piddlefoot
to lideral, its a hypathetical, theorised.
And what you talk about really is just a solar panel that traps photons...
This idea he spat out if you read it is question about the fundamentals of light, not whether humans can see this happen.
So put light in a trap / one he described.
Light is already matter / photons and many other particals make up our sun light.

I think you misunderstand light properties. Light it not matter. matter is not light.
there is a diference surmized by Eintein's equations where matter cannot reach the speed of light simply because at that point, it will cease to become matter. I am currently proposing a theory of spacial voids being made up of light, citing that if all matter is accelerated to C, then logically, there is no matter left to create the gravitational field. But I am only in the introductory process of this. There is no way someone can state in one blatant statement that "Light is already matter". no way
 

Geniere

Senior member
Sep 3, 2002
336
0
0
Originally posted by: hawk16 ... If you made a room of all mirrors, completely mirrors, no material AT ALL that absorbed light.
All materials including the best of mirrors absorb light. Light is not a BB that bounces off the surface of a mirror. The reflection depends on the interaction of a photon with a free electron. By free electron, I mean one that is not part of an atom. Metals have many free electrons, that is why they are used in mirror coatings.
Originally posted by: hawk16 ...And you say had a flashlight and shined a light inside this mirror room and somehow you were able to close the mirror door faster then light. Would the light get trapped in there and stay lit or would it just disapate?...

The short answer is yes, but eventually the energy of the light would be absorbed by the mirrors and their temperature would be slightly higher. The mechanism for this is not readily answered by classical physics (light as a wave function). Quantum mechanics was invented to try to explain the interaction of light and matter. If you're into this stuff, read about the "two slit experiment", "photoelectric effect" and the book "QED". In the book, don't be scared off by the title "Quantum Electro Dynamics", Feynman explains the interaction of light and matter as the most probable outcome versus all possible outcomes. As f95toli said, light does not behave intuitively. It is a strange universe we live in.

 

LeatherNeck

Member
Jan 16, 2001
174
0
76
Originally posted by: mdchesne
I think you misunderstand light properties. Light it not matter. matter is not light.
there is a diference surmized by Eintein's equations where matter cannot reach the speed of light simply because at that point, it will cease to become matter. I am currently proposing a theory of spacial voids being made up of light, citing that if all matter is accelerated to C, then logically, there is no matter left to create the gravitational field. But I am only in the introductory process of this. There is no way someone can state in one blatant statement that "Light is already matter". no way

Light is a particle and a wave. Light is an electromagnetic wave but also has particle properties in the form of photons. Light also has momentum to it. Photons have zero mass at rest, hence they do not become infinitely massive at the speed they travel (according to Relativity) yet they still have momentum even though momentum is typically directly proportional to mass.

In the hypothetical posed, if the mirrors were perfectly shaped and perfectly reflective (did not absorb any energy) then, theoretically light could bounce all over indefinitely but we don't live in a theoretical world and every surface has imperfections and light energy is eventually absorbed.
 

mdchesne

Banned
Feb 27, 2005
2,810
1
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Originally posted by: LeatherNeck

Light is a particle and a wave. Light is an electromagnetic wave but also has particle properties in the form of photons. Light also has momentum to it. Photons have zero mass at rest, hence they do not become infinitely massive at the speed they travel (according to Relativity) yet they still have momentum even though momentum is typically directly proportional to mass.

How little do you know of the physical properties and mechanics of light? If you simply take the two properties of light, you will logically come to the same conclusions scientists and astronomists have for the past 100 years

"In order to answer it we need to establish some

definitions first. The definition of matter is usually taken to be: anything

that has mass and occupies space or has volume. The definition of light is

those wavelengths of electromagnetic energy that can stimulate the retina of

the eye. Light is a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

This link will show you the elactromacnetic spectrum and its wavelengths.

The Electromagnetic Spectrum

The above definitions are fine but what do they mean. Mass is a quantity

that all matter posseses. When that mass is in the presence of a gravitational

field the mass will have weight.

Now that the definitions are there let's see if we can put them together to

answer your question. If light has mass and has a volume then it is matter,

if neither are true then light is not matter. We have been experimenting

with light for a long time. We have not been able to detect any mass

associated with light. Light does react to gravity but we have found no

evidence yet that it has mass. So it fails in the first test.

Does light take up space? We have no evidence that I am aware of that light

takes up space. Light can an will interact with matter in various ways.

When the sun shines on your skin it feels warm. We use micro waves to cook

food. You can think up other examples yourself.

Light and mass are related. According to Einstein's famous equation E=mc^2.

This tells us that mass can be converted into energy. The electromagnetic

spectrum is a result of this mass to energy conversion going on in the stars.

This is how our sun produces its energy.

So, is light matter?

To put it in more simple terms, light is energy and matter is made up of

atoms.

Keep asking questions."



On a lighter side, I will explain the reasoning behind my theory of a black hole being composed of energy, not matter. Let's say we take a marble block and let it drift into a black hole's gravitational field. As the block apporaches the point of singularity (POS), the momentum you describe will indeed convert the mass to energy as it appraches the speed of light, C. When this happens, when matter becomes energy, massive amounts of energy are released. Now, if this energy scatters as it would in a fusion reaction, the resulting light would have no, or very little significant mass, HOWEVER: if the matter is already in a field of gravity strong enough to accelerate to the speed of light, and to maintain a gravitation pull greater than the speed of light (hence the black hole), then the escaping energy from the matter conversion would also be pulled into the POS. We know light can be bent by the anomaly we witness when a dense planet comes between the sun and out observable gaze (i.e jupiter, from a satelitte) Therefor, with no escpaing energy, mass must be conserved. So the gaining gravitational mass we observe in a black hole is actually not mass, but a greater concentration fo nergy orbiting around the POS much like an atom's electrons.
 

LeatherNeck

Member
Jan 16, 2001
174
0
76
Originally posted by: mdchesne
How little do you know of the physical properties and mechanics of light? If you simply take the two properties of light, you will logically come to the same conclusions scientists and astronomists have for the past 100 years
Were you supposed to have refuted the quotation you presented of mine somehow?

I'm not sure whose words you cut and pasted into your response but it bears little on what I said.

What does the fact that visible light is a small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum have to do with wave or particle properties? Did I say otherwise about visible light. Even that which is not considered visible in the electromagnetic spectrum is still called "light" at times.

Would you like to specifically refute a portion of what I said above? More specifically:

1. Is light a wave?
2. Is light a particle?
3. Does light have momentum?
4. What is a photon's rest mass?

Maybe if you search the Internet for a response to those questions you'll realize you might have done better than to try to refute what I stated about light and its properties.
 

piddlefoot

Senior member
May 11, 2005
226
0
0
isnt everything matter or antimatter ? At a curtian level.
i cant see light being antimatter...whether we fully understand it or not is always open to debate...and until we prove that light is the infinate speed and cannot be breached, we humans should be trying to test it. practicly.
 

Geniere

Senior member
Sep 3, 2002
336
0
0
Originally posted by: piddlefoot?isnt everything matter or antimatter ? At a curtian level.
Matter exists as ?matter? and ?anti-matter?. The two are identical except anti-matter has the reverse electrical charge as does matter. The ?positron? is the anti-matter equivalent of the ?electron? and likewise for the ?anti-proton?. The two can combine to make an ?anti-hydrogen? atom.

Originally posted by: piddlefoot?i cant see light being antimatter...whether we fully understand it or not is always open to debate...
Light has no charge and no anti-light partner. Light has been directly converted to matter about 10 years ago (SLAC) and for many years previous has produced virtual particles in high energy accelerators. I?m not sure if it has been directly converted to anti-matter.

Originally posted by: piddlefoot?and until we prove that light is the infinate speed and cannot be breached, we humans should be trying to test it. practicly.
Light does not travel at an infinite speed, it travels at C (299 792 458 m / s). Its speed can also be derived from the ratio of the permeability (magnetic field) and permittitivy (electric field) of space (vacuum). We therefore have two independent means of determining the speed of light, one is by measuring and the second is by calculation.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,503
1,118
126
look up shroders cat. that will answer your question. quantumly speaking the room will be both lit and unlit untill you look, at which point it will colapse the probibility wave and have an outcome.
 

mdchesne

Banned
Feb 27, 2005
2,810
1
0
Originally posted by: Geniere
Originally posted by: piddlefoot?isnt everything matter or antimatter ? At a curtian level.
Matter exists as ?matter? and ?anti-matter?. The two are identical except anti-matter has the reverse electrical charge as does matter. The ?positron? is the anti-matter equivalent of the ?electron? and likewise for the ?anti-proton?. The two can combine to make an ?anti-hydrogen? atom.

Originally posted by: piddlefoot?i cant see light being antimatter...whether we fully understand it or not is always open to debate...
Light has no charge and no anti-light partner. Light has been directly converted to matter about 10 years ago (SLAC) and for many years previous has produced virtual particles in high energy accelerators. I?m not sure if it has been directly converted to anti-matter.

Originally posted by: piddlefoot?and until we prove that light is the infinate speed and cannot be breached, we humans should be trying to test it. practicly.
Light does not travel at an infinite speed, it travels at C (299 792 458 m / s). Its speed can also be derived from the ratio of the permeability (magnetic field) and permittitivy (electric field) of space (vacuum). We therefore have two independent means of determining the speed of light, one is by measuring and the second is by calculation.

owned, lol
 

MAW1082

Senior member
Jun 17, 2003
510
7
81
Originally posted by: LeatherNeck

1. Is light a wave?
2. Is light a particle?
3. Does light have momentum?
4. What is a photon's rest mass?

Maybe if you search the Internet for a response to those questions you'll realize you might have done better than to try to refute what I stated about light and its properties.

1 and 2. Yeah it's both as was said in a previous post. I learned it as "particle wave duality." I think de Broglie came up with this name for it, along with the math of course.

3. Light does have momentum, however, I think I would describe it more as raw energy than momentum since momentum is based on mass.

4. And as was alos prevously said, a photon does not have rest mass.
 

Spinne

Member
Sep 24, 2003
57
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0
Uhhh... I was always under the impression that you really care about the Energy-Momentum tensor to calculate the Riemann curvature tensor to get the metric (hence 'gravity'). So light does create a gravitational field inside the Event Horizon. Otherwise you'd get a sort of paradox where the Black Hole never even comes close to forming because as the curvature increases and things fall in faster, they 'turn' into light and hence retard and even reverse the increase in curvature. To put it simply, light has momentum, which is all we really care about.

When light 'bounces' off a shiny surface it's because the varying EM field responsible for the light is exciting free electrons in the shiny surface causing similarly varying fields to be set up. Anything outside the mirror room will also pick up on the varying EM fields (now set up by both the source and the electrons inside the mirror) and hence you'd gradually dissapate the energy into the surroundings.

If you wanna extend the Gendanken and consider your 'box' to be the whole Universe, you'd have to first determine if the Universe is an open manifold. If it isn't open, then yes, it'd trap the light forever. I think Hawking's claim to fame is that he treated the Universe like the inside of a Black Hole, which is a somewhat similar analogy.
 

crabbyman

Senior member
Jul 24, 2002
529
1
76
Why does Murphy's law work? Is it just because of particles in the air? ..or energy of light decreasing?

Murphys law of light = Light is 1/2 bright each time you 2x the distance
 

Woodchuck2000

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2002
1,632
1
0
Originally posted by: Geniere
Originally posted by: piddlefoot?isnt everything matter or antimatter ? At a curtian level.
Matter exists as ?matter? and ?anti-matter?. The two are identical except anti-matter has the reverse electrical charge as does matter. The ?positron? is the anti-matter equivalent of the ?electron? and likewise for the ?anti-proton?. The two can combine to make an ?anti-hydrogen? atom.

Originally posted by: piddlefoot?i cant see light being antimatter...whether we fully understand it or not is always open to debate...
Light has no charge and no anti-light partner. Light has been directly converted to matter about 10 years ago (SLAC) and for many years previous has produced virtual particles in high energy accelerators. I?m not sure if it has been directly converted to anti-matter.

Originally posted by: piddlefoot?and until we prove that light is the infinate speed and cannot be breached, we humans should be trying to test it. practicly.
Light does not travel at an infinite speed, it travels at C (299 792 458 m / s). Its speed can also be derived from the ratio of the permeability (magnetic field) and permittitivy (electric field) of space (vacuum). We therefore have two independent means of determining the speed of light, one is by measuring and the second is by calculation.
Dude, don't even try - it's like talking logic at a brick wall (See HT asteroid thread :roll...

On topic; a hypothetical yes, a practical no. It hinges on finding perfect mirrors (i.e. no absorption) and then having faith that there is still light inside! No measurement as you'd change the system by doing so...

 
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