Trinity review

[MrTeal]

When reading a review dont skip the first pages, they have useful technical information

I didn't, and AMD has done a good job of their power management this go around.
What does this have to do with the expected performance loss during gaming between a 45W Intel quad core with HD4000@650/1250 and a 35W Intel dual core with HD4000@650/1200?

Again, how did you derive the numbers that Trinity would be 30-50% faster that a dual core IB?

 

[podspi]

This release brings up a few huge points for the market as a whole. Honestly, I am a little disappointed at the review, and I really think we need to see some retail configurations.

That being said:

1) Seeing as how close IB and Trinity are in graphical performance now, I believe it is time to look at IQ. I didn't see any mention of that in the review. I find it disappointing this wasn't addressed.

2) It will be interesting to see why Trinity is coming so close the HD4000 performance levels. Is it bandwidth starved, or is it CPU bottlenecked? I heard rumors on SA that people with engineering samples were complaining Trinity is bottlenecked by the CPU. It is pretty clear if that is the case AMD is in danger of losing the IGP 'gaming crown' (heh) by the Haswell/Kaveri generation if they don't get x86 performance up.

3) Along those same lines, how effective will hybrid crossfire be? A10+dGPU might be cheaper/faster/more energy efficient than IB+GTwhatever. If Trinity is bottlenecked by CPU, then they will likely lose a lot of attachment sales, because what is the point?

4) nVidia has got to be freaking out right about now. In five years the low-end discrete market is going to be entirely wiped out by these things...


In the end I think Trinity is a decent release. perf/W increases, and GPU performance is better. I think it doesn't look too impressive because IB's HD4000 is just pretty awesome for an Intel GPU. Hence why I want IQ comparisons, I have so many bad gaming memories at the hands of Intel graphics...

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Could be AA cranked up

The notes on the AnandTech graph say no AA.

or even other BIOS settings.

Same model laptop at both sites, doubtful they shipped with different BIOS settings.

Plugged in versus on battery?

Jarred is not a moron.

 

[KompuKare]

While I'll stick with most of my earlier reaction to Trinity (somewhat disappointing), from the days of when AMD used to be behind in power usage to something like this is impressive:

That's from the THG review and while they left out IB, the rest of power consumption figures (web browsing etc.) are also good:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/a10-4600m-trinity-piledriver,3202-17.html

Oh, and despite the generally lightweight nature of THG, taking the battery out and measuring the draw of the PSU at the wall is a good idea for laptop reviews: other sites please copy!

EDIT Well it is a good idea but I forgot about the difference performance profiles laptops have for battery vs mains...

 

[ShintaiDK]

EDIT Well it is a good idea but I forgot about the difference performance profiles laptops have for battery vs mains...

And the different efficiency numbers for the PSUs. Different screen, extra features etc. All drawing power.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

You guys need to lay off the crackpot if you think ppl don't game on laptops.. it's utter rubbish.

I just got myself a dirt cheap dv6 with 6770M and here I am playing Diablo 3 at max settings for the past few hrs, its running at 60 fps vsynced. It also handles BF3 at medium (which looks heaps better than consoles already) in MP without dipping < 30 fps.

Trinity looks to be onpar with the 6770M discrete, that's in a package with great power efficiency and functional without plugging in for a few hrs of gaming. I would not hesitate to get a ultrabook with trinity in it at all.

Also, CPU matters very little in laptops, what is the most common task on this platform? Surfing (flash), skyping, viewing HD media, doing office work and gaming. Which ones of these task need more than Trinity has in terms of CPU power? None. Which ones work better on the iGPU? You can figure it out. Unless you buy a laptop specifically to encode videos, paying more for sb/ivb cpus is an utter waste of $$.

The CPU hasnt been a bottleneck in PC experience for a long long time.

LOL, keep preaching what you do on your laptop as if it was what everyone did.

Your statements are clearly not reflected in sales numbers, and all a faster IGP is good for is that, gaming. Not even great gaming, but merely "okay".

For those basic/common tasks you mentioned, Intel is just as good as AMD. And guess what? Get average consumers to choose between Intel and AMD, and 9/10 times they'll choose Intel because of their better brand recognition. If AMD wants to succeed, they don't need to be "as good" as Intel, but better. Unfortunately for AMD, people doing basic tasks will go for Intel because they're priced just as good and will deliver just as good performance and in the minds of the avg. consumer they're a better brand, while power users will also go with Intel because their CPUs are faster for encoding, transcoding, 3D, content creation, file compression, compiling, productivity; you name it. Power users also make a bigger piece of the market than cheap gamers, and if it's cheap gamers you're talking about then what's to stop them from paying either a bit more or the same for an Intel CPU + NVIDIA/AMD dGPU vs an AMD APU that will be much slower in all tasks?

Pricing is everything here, and the A10 will very probably be featured in $600 range laptops. That's also the range you find Core i3 + dGPU laptops that will be faster in all tasks, so what's the incentive to go with AMD?
At $500 you'll probably find A8 laptops, but IGP performance for those will likely only be on par with the HD 4000. Again, what's to stop someone from going with a Core i5 or even i3 then? AMD's basic problem in this segment is that the top-tier APUs are priced too high, and the lower-tier APUs lose too much IGP performance therefore making them no faster than the HD 4000.

 

[Subyman]

All I want is a cheap laptop that can play Civ 5 on medium settings in a pinch (work trips, holidays, etc). Hopefully Trinity can pull that off.

This made me laugh, when does one need to play Civ 5 "in a pinch." lol

 

[Silverforce11]

Your statements are clearly not reflected in sales numbers, and all a faster IGP is good for is that, gaming.

Completely wrong. AMD has been steadily gaining marketshare in the mobile market.

 

[Kalessian]

Isn't i3+dGPU in the $700+ range?

 

[Vesku]

Launch day IGP performance in games is at least 10% slower than I expected. Platform price vs features needs to be better balanced than Llano launch, imo.

 

[pelov]

Your statements are clearly not reflected in sales numbers, and all a faster IGP is good for is that, gaming. Not even great gaming, but merely "okay".

I think it's you who has things backwards here, friend. If this were the case the i3 SBs would selling by the oodles instead it's the Llano alternatives (better IGP focus) that were, and still are, gaining market share.

AMD's laptop chip market share, which the firm went after with gusto following the launch of its Llano chips in the middle of 2011, rose by 2.7 per cent to 16 per cent, while Intel's market share fell by 2.6 per cent to 83.8 per cent. While AMD was reaping the rewards of its Llano chips, its Bulldozer Opterons did nothing to demolish Intel's considerable market share in servers.
Source: The Inquirer (http://s.tt/17qvP)

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2159749/amds-llano-helps-claw-market-share-intel

You can keep thumping away the notion that most people don't want nor need better IGP performance but "good enough." It's in direct contrast to what the sales figures say. So instead of providing personal statements maybe you can finally back up your claims with some actual figures. Llano (and Brazos) have sold more than 30mill units despite yield issues shortly after release and both have clawed away at Intel's mobile market share due to better IGPs than SB. Now that Trinity is out it's likely to be more about price and implementation rather than a drastic difference between 7660G and HD4000, which I still think will change with some driver improvements.

So, LOLWTFOMFGBBQAXEL, I, on behalf of the entire Anand community, ask you to provide proof for your claims or quit claiming that they're true. Please don't balk and say it's your own experience in sales as your experience in sales quite clearly contradicts the overall growing trend in the market

 

[n0x1ous]

The CPU hasnt been a bottleneck in PC experience for a long long time.

That depends what you define as a "PC Experience"
Is this an enthusiast site or is it for grandma and grandpa to check their email of the grandkids pics and little johnny playing farmville? CPU bottlenecks are all over the place for those who actually use PC's like 99.9% of the people posting on this forum.

Honestly, while I find Trinity to be fine for its target market, the problem with it is that OEM's will put Trinity chips in poor quality budget laptops with garbage screens, garbage keyboards, with garbage build quality.

 

[Kalessian]

poor quality budget laptops with garbage screens, garbage keyboards, with garbage build quality.

so you mean exactly what most people want

 

[pelov]

Honestly, while I find Trinity to be fine for its target market, the problem with it is that OEM's will put Trinity chips in poor quality budget laptops with garbage screens, garbage keyboards, with garbage build quality.

That was a major problem with Llano. Only 2 real Llano laptops I kept an eye on were the dv6z from HP and the Asus line because both of those were capable of running crossfire with discrete GPUs as well as offered the option of a 1080p screen. The Asus screen upgrade was only $70 too whereas the HP was only offered on their site for ~$120. Both lappies had great build quality and were pretty cheap. I say were because I haven't seen a single Asus Llano laptop like that other than refurb ones a couple of months ago. The price for the HP one with a 128gb Crucial SSD and 1080p screen came out to something like ~$800. Ultrabook quality at a $400 discount. Unfortunately it's the only currently available Llano option that makes sense at the moment.

If other OEMs are willing to follow suit and offer a bit more with the AMD APUs then I'll be a very happy boy

 

[n0x1ous]

so you mean exactly what most people want

If thats the case, all AMD has to fight with is price since these people have been content with Intel's historically garbage IGP's.

Like a previous poster mentioned. Their higher end A10 APU will be priced too high and their lowest one will have no advantage because the IGP will be too castrated.

AMD likes to preach good enough. When everything is "good enough" all you can differentiate on is price and AMD can't afford to cut margins like Intel can.

So basically "most people" (who AMD targets with their APU products) wont give a **** about this and buy intel because its the only name they recognize.

It would be nice to see an A10 as an option in say a Dell XPS or HP envy with a discrete Radeon as an option but it won't happen.

 

[pelov]

So basically "most people" (who AMD targets with their APU products) wont give a **** about this and buy intel because its the only name they recognize.

Llanos and Brazos have sold very well and that was mainly because of the price and better IGP compared to equally priced Intel alternatives. Oddly enough, this really doesn't change for the low end. Both Llano and Trinity will be going up against Intel SB i3's with HD3000 which they'll stomp even harder now and the only IB HD4000 chips AMD will face off against as far as price goes are the i7's which are significantly more expensive. The price is a larger issue at the higher end, $700+, than it is on the low end regardless of Trinity/Llano specs. That will change when i3 IB with HD4000 comes out, though, but apparently that's more than a month away.

 

[Aikouka]

I wouldn't mind a HTPC using Trinity if they could make a low-powered version similar to my Core i3-2100t. Frankly, it would be nice just to get away from Intel's graphics drivers!

I would really love it if I could get a fanless setup similar to this Fusion board:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131732

My current cooler is pretty quiet, but I sure do love silence when there isn't anything playing.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Llanos and Brazos have sold very well and that was mainly because of the price and better IGP compared to equally priced Intel alternatives. Oddly enough, this really doesn't change for the low end. Both Llano and Trinity will be going up against Intel SB i3's with HD3000 which they'll stomp even harder now and the only IB HD4000 chips AMD will face off against as far as price goes are the i7's which are significantly more expensive. The price is a larger issue at the higher end, $700+, than it is on the low end regardless of Trinity/Llano specs. That will change when i3 IB with HD4000 comes out, though, but apparently that's more than a month away.

That depends on how you define very well. Compared to Intel, no. Compared to their previous efforts, yes. But since their previous efforts were absolutely horrible, that's not saying too much. The only AMD product that succeeded against Intel outright was Bobcat vs. Atom, where you got the whole package: much better CPU performance, much better IGP performance, comparable relative battery life, and cheap pricing. You also got good laptops featuring it.

Also, I'd like to see where you can buy from a major retailer a Trinity laptop right now. As it stands, both the laptop Core i3 and Core i5 will be launched on actual products near the same time the A6, A8, and A10 will be. Don't forget the fact that the Trinity A8 IGP will only match the Llano A8 IGP in terms of performance (20% less performance than A10), meaning it will only match the HD 4000 which will be featured in the Core i3 and i5. And I'm pretty sure we'll see Ivy Bridge Core i3 laptops in the $500 range, which is the price range for the A8, so AMD would hold zero advantage over Intel: much slower CPU, same performance IGP, comparable battery life, lower brand recognition.

In the $600 range we'll probably find Ivy or Sandy Core i3 + HD7670M laptops. Those will be better in just about everything than an A10 or A8+dGPU laptops which will also probably be in that range.

Given this, I fail to see how AMD is being more competitive or making any grounds except battery life.

 

[Skurge]

So AMD managed to Improve CPU performance (IPC looks to be the same as bulldozer, but it's clocked MUCH higher and uses less power) and GPU performance at almost the same Die size at the same process. I say that's mighty impressive. Intel did the same with lynfield to Sandy bridge. So I think AMD deserve the same credit. I can't wait to see desktop trinity. It should be clocked 50% higher than Llano and even with less IPC that is a massive gain.

Once GF gets their act together Trinity at 2xnm would be mighty impressive. I can easily see a 50% IGP gain. I might ask my boss for one of these so I can play Diablo 3 at work

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

So AMD managed to Improve CPU performance (IPC looks to be the same as bulldozer, but it's clocked MUCH higher and uses less power) and GPU performance at almost the same Die size at the same process. I say that's mighty impressive. Intel did the same with lynfield to Sandy bridge. So I think AMD deserve the same credit. I can't wait to see desktop trinity. It should be clocked 50% higher than Llano and even with less IPC that is a massive gain.

Once GF gets their act together Trinity at 2xnm would be mighty impressive. I can easily see a 50% IGP gain. I might ask my boss for one of these so I can play Diablo 3 at work

Intel is targeting a bigger IGP performance increase going from Ivy Bridge to Haswell than going from Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Intel surpassing AMD when it comes to IGP performance by next year.

Not that this matters too much as to most laptop customers, again, CPU performance>IGP performance. And to those few that do care, HD 4000=HD 7640G=HD6620G.

 

[Skurge]

Intel is targeting a bigger IGP performance increase going from Ivy Bridge to Haswell than going from Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Intel surpassing AMD when it comes to IGP performance by next year.

Not that this matters too much as to most laptop customers, again, CPU performance>IGP performance. And to those few that do care, HD 4000=HD 7640G=HD6620G.

Im not sure how much of an improvement they can make on the same process.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I wouldn't mind a HTPC using Trinity if they could make a low-powered version similar to my Core i3-2100t. Frankly, it would be nice just to get away from Intel's graphics drivers!

I would really love it if I could get a fanless setup similar to this Fusion board:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131732

My current cooler is pretty quiet, but I sure do love silence when there isn't anything playing.

Really . On my old gamer running AMD Many many gpu caused crashes . due to drivers . On my desktop Nv has had 3 driver crashes since built . The Intel IGP ZERO driver crashes .

 

[pelov]

Sorry, Axel, but you've seemed to have missed something important up above,

So, LOLWTFOMFGBBQAXEL, I, on behalf of the entire Anand community, ask you to provide proof for your claims or quit claiming that they're true. Please don't balk and say it's your own experience in sales as your experience in sales quite clearly contradicts the overall growing trend in the market

Meaning the worse CPU performing chips with better IGP performance and lower availability outsold their Intel counterparts.

Not that this matters too much as to most laptop customers, again, CPU performance>IGP performance. And to those few that do care, HD 4000=HD 7640G=HD6620G.

Because when you say something like this and it directly contradicts the factual data you end up getting ignored. So if you're going to keep posting stuff like that I'd advise you to back it up with some figures otherwise it is, much like every post with respect to Trinity and anything mobile related you've ever tossed on Anandtech, just hot air. So please, enlighten us with some wisdom other than personal statements.

The prices of the notebooks, both IB and Trinity, are going to be interesting. As things stand, the Trinity laptop that's being showcased now seems to fair quite well. I originally thought it was $700 bare-bones but it's apparently only $600 so that's pretty damn good and it's the same price as most Llano A8's. When mobile i3/i5 IBs hit the market that will likely change again and we'll see Trinity at even lower prices. I'm still not convinced the HD4000 fairs as well as the benchmarks have shown in comparison to the 7660G. The difference between synthetic DX11 and game-based DX11 benchmarks is far too big in some games to ignore and looks to be driver related rather than the game playing architectural favorites, particularly Metro2033.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Im not sure how much of an improvement they can make on the same process.

lok at sb which was made for the 32nm process. than campare it what came out on intels 32nm. intels haswell is made for 22nm . I think we will see intels IGP at 3x faster than current 22nm IVB. Intel is claiming more but 3x is good enough for me.History is the teacher and recent history shows intel to be vary good at giving what they promise as seen with both SB and now IVB. Haswell will be an IGPU monster.

 

[Olikan]

Really . On my old gamer running AMD Many many gpu caused crashes . due to drivers . On my desktop Nv has had 3 driver crashes since built . The Intel IGP ZERO driver crashes .

meanwhile... me, my boss and co-workers, were forced to buy gpus, just because the intel drivers couldn't render correctly the textures in 3d max...

you, my friend, is just lucky