Trump Brussels Damage Report

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urvile

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2017
1,575
474
96
The world needs a shake up. No, actually, it needs an enema. Too many globalists have been pushing us around for too long. Shake, rattle and roll. In the end, we'll be just fine. I understand the strategy well. As an America first kind of guy, this works. The other countries we help protect need to pay up.

That's awesome dude. It doesn't change my opinion. Or reality.
 

tamaron

Member
Apr 29, 2008
47
4
71
Well, he actually has asked not for a 2% GDP, but for a 4% GDP. I think this guy is out of this reality. Here in Spain we (the state) gave to banks 48€ billions, but we have returned a fraction of that (1/10), many families without a decent income, some famine here and there and things that shouldn't happen in a developed country with some sense of citizenship.

With this kind of obscene situation we must face the reactivation of our economy and try to repair the injustice made to the weakest citizens first, and a integral part IMHO is to develop a strong I+D in our territory to avoid a dependence of foreign countries (mostly US). Now, EADS and Dassault are aiming for a new weapon system consisting in fighters, UAVs a new command a control techs. If there is one good thing about this person is that he has united more the sense of European independence.

PS: I Love USA, and like me many others here. Despite of the person in charge this will not change.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
The world needs a shake up. No, actually, it needs an enema. Too many globalists have been pushing us around for too long. Shake, rattle and roll. In the end, we'll be just fine. I understand the strategy well. As an America first kind of guy, this works. The other countries we help protect need to pay up.

lol, pushing us around? Another guy who doesn't know that America has been the largest beneficiary of globalism in the post WW2 era.. by far. Keep believing the propaganda.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,529
15,052
136
The world needs a shake up. No, actually, it needs an enema. Too many globalists have been pushing us around for too long. Shake, rattle and roll. In the end, we'll be just fine. I understand the strategy well. As an America first kind of guy, this works. The other countries we help protect need to pay up.

NATO has been pulled to arms ONCE, to defend the US on 9/11. The story so far has NATO defending America not the other way around. But screw that shit right? Screw desert storm, screw Afghanistan, Iraq part II, Syria etc. etc. etc.
You know that saying that countries that trade dont wage war on each other? You know who else does not wage war on each other? Allies. Idiot. Allies.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
The world needs a shake up. No, actually, it needs an enema. Too many globalists have been pushing us around for too long. Shake, rattle and roll. In the end, we'll be just fine. I understand the strategy well. As an America first kind of guy, this works. The other countries we help protect need to pay up.

And you think the US will lower its defense spending if Europe raises there's? LOL.

Here's an idea. If we think Europe isn't paying its fair share, we can just lower our own defense spending to bring it closer to what they spend in Europe as a percentage of GDP. The US and its NATO allies already outspend Russia and China combined by about five fold. Collectively we do not need this level of spending. But Trump has already raised ours, and he wants Europe to raise theirs. Doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Bloody amazing. It really is 1855 again. Out with the Papists!

The world needs a shake up. No, actually, it needs an enema. Too many globalists have been pushing us around for too long. Shake, rattle and roll. In the end, we'll be just fine. I understand the strategy well. As an America first kind of guy, this works. The other countries we help protect need to pay up.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,529
15,052
136
Well it seems like Trump is satisfied with NATO for now.. But who know what will be tweeting in a few hours..
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,541
54,402
136
And you think the US will lower its defense spending if Europe raises there's? LOL.

Here's an idea. If we think Europe isn't paying its fair share, we can just lower our own defense spending to bring it closer to what they spend in Europe as a percentage of GDP. The US and its NATO allies already outspend Russia and China combined by about five fold. Collectively we do not need this level of spending. But Trump has already raised ours, and he wants Europe to raise theirs. Doesn't make any sense to me.

It’s kind of amazing that the guy who totally isn’t in bed with the Russians is trying to hard to accomplish Russia’s #1 geopolitical objective over the objections of his advisers, his party, and the popular will of the American people.
 
Reactions: Younigue

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,727
44,431
136
Trump 101: Vacillate between belligerent and schmoozing but at the end turn the table over screaming nonsense then leave having declared victory even if you got nothing. He gets bonus lol points for claiming that the UK really loves him...where he is probably less popular than herpes.

The reality is that even if these leaders wanted increased defense spending Trump's antics work against that in their domestic politics. It's self defeating if you assumed he actually cared about accomplishing anything. The end result is likely to cause the EU and NATO in Europe to move closer together and away from the US. Ultimately I'm not sure that actually helps Russia's goals of breaking up both blocs.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,727
44,431
136
Well it seems like Trump is satisfied with NATO for now.. But who know what will be tweeting in a few hours..

Macron is already out emphatically denying anybody committed more money. Trump will probably fire back like at Canada after the G7. His playbook is limited.

Edit: or maybe more accurately nothing beyond the current agreement to get to 2% by 2024-2030. Different sources say different things.
 
Last edited:

Denly

Golden Member
May 14, 2011
1,435
229
106
US own 70% of all guns in the world, largest Army of all kind, large piles of nukes and a military budget of what the rest of the world combine. If USA want to conquer the world, they likely can do it a few times. What can be archive by increasing military budget other than money and GDP?
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,614
9,702
136
If NATO allows one of its member states to be invaded without responding, then NATO is a dead letter, not just for the Baltic States but for the whole 29-member alliance. Collective security is the only way to make an aggressor behave. Want to avoid a war? Don't give an inch of an ally's territorial integrity to a hostile power. Especially if you expect collective allies come together when that hostile power tangles with you.

What would be the effect on the European countries themselves if NATO is allowed to collapse, and Europe goes back to being the sort of neighborhood where sovereign states and Russia routinely invade each other and take bites out of each other's territories?

So, we need to make 100% crystal clear to Vladimir Putin that:

An armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain security.

There is no asterisk after "one or more of them" except for the countries on the list in the Secret Protocol of the Putin-Trump Pact. Unfortunately, Trump (aided and abetted by the oh-so-uber-patriotic Republican Party) has already dangerously weakened the collective institutions and treaty's the United States and the world depend upon for their peace and security.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
If NATO allows one of its member states to be invaded without responding, then NATO is a dead letter, not just for the Baltic States but for the whole 29-member alliance. Collective security is the only way to make an aggressor behave. Want to avoid a war? Don't give an inch of an ally's territorial integrity to a hostile power. Especially if you expect collective allies come together when that hostile power tangles with you.

What would be the effect on the European countries themselves if NATO is allowed to collapse, and Europe goes back to being the sort of neighborhood where sovereign states and Russia routinely invade each other and take bites out of each other's territories?

So, we need to make 100% crystal clear to Vladimir Putin that:

An armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain security.

There is no asterisk after "one or more of them" except for the countries on the list in the Secret Protocol of the Putin-Trump Pact. Unfortunately, Trump (aided and abetted by the oh-so-uber-patriotic Republican Party) has already dangerously weakened the collective institutions and treaty's the United States and the world depend upon for their peace and security.

I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if Russia invades a country that doesn't bother to spend it's 2% on its own defense, waiting to take our good sweet time to come to their defense so when they are liberated there's little left of their country once the Russians get done plundering it.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,401
136
I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if Russia invades a country that doesn't bother to spend it's 2% on its own defense, waiting to take our good sweet time to come to their defense so when they are liberated there's little left of their country once the Russians get done plundering it.

Thing is Glenn nearly all will hit the benchmark by 2024 and most will hit it next year. This is Obama’s work, who appeared to take the handoff from Bush who originally brought the issue up.
Trump has done nothing.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,541
54,402
136
I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if Russia invades a country that doesn't bother to spend it's 2% on its own defense, waiting to take our good sweet time to come to their defense so when they are liberated there's little left of their country once the Russians get done plundering it.

So you’re fine with the US not living up to its binding treaty commitments that are in force today because other countries aren’t living up to future commitments that aren’t binding.

You could have just said ‘I think our country’s promises should mean nothing’ and get on with it, haha. You may not like the result though where we end up in a world where we can’t make credible commitments. (Why deal with us on anything then?)

The 2% mark is a meaningless and arbitrary one anyway. Countries have defense needs that exist at a certain level that does not depend on their GDP.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,541
54,402
136
Thing is Glenn nearly all will hit the benchmark by 2024 and most will hit it next year. This is Obama’s work, who appeared to take the handoff from Bush who originally brought the issue up.
Trump has done nothing.

Glenn is just engaging in one of his bizarre revenge fantasies. I’m sure in his scenario he also dreams that New York and LA are somehow nuked in the ensuing war or whatever.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,727
44,431
136
The 2% mark is a meaningless and arbitrary one anyway. Countries have defense needs that exist at a certain level that does not depend on their GDP.

It's almost like using US spend as a benchmark is bad because we are directly and actively involved in numerous wars/conflicts. I mean those don't cost anything and we've really spent that money on beefing up EU defense lol.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,541
54,402
136
It's almost like using US spend as a benchmark is bad because we are directly and actively involved in numerous wars/conflicts. I mean those don't cost anything and we've really spent that money on beefing up EU defense lol.

Not just wars, but our entire military posture is designed to be expensive because of the goals we have set for ourselves as we insist on command of the global commons and the ability to project force into other people's territory. (the commons being the seas outside territorial waters and airspace above 15,000 feet) The military hardware and training necessary to do that is an order of magnitude more expensive than what it costs to set up local defenses. A good example is that if defense of your territorial waters from ships was your primary goal a fleet of relatively cheap diesel submarines would work just fine instead of super expensive nuclear subs. (in some ways better as diesels are quieter than nukes when running on batteries). Surface to air missile batteries are way cheaper than maintaining a worldwide air force, etc, etc.

In short we spend so much money on our military because we want to make it so if you piss us off there's basically nowhere on earth we can't reach you. Anyone who thinks our military spending is driven by defending Europe is a fucking idiot.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,500
31,478
136
I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if Russia invades a country that doesn't bother to spend it's 2% on its own defense, waiting to take our good sweet time to come to their defense so when they are liberated there's little left of their country once the Russians get done plundering it.
Realistically you are fine with Russia invading other countries. The distinction between 1.75 and 2% can't possibly be the determining factor.

While member nations should live up to their spending commitments you can't treat NATO like some country club. "Hey moocher, you're behind 2 month's dues so we are kicking you out.". NATO ain't Mara Lago
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,541
54,402
136
Realistically you are fine with Russia invading other countries. The distinction between 1.75 and 2% can't possibly be the determining factor.

While member nations should live up to their spending commitments you can't treat NATO like some country club. "Hey moocher, you're behind 2 month's dues so we are kicking you out.". NATO ain't Mara Lago

Let's remember though they ARE living up to their spending commitments. The whole 2% thing isn't supposed to be met for another six years.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,727
44,431
136
Not just wars, but our entire military posture is designed to be expensive because of the goals we have set for ourselves as we insist on command of the global commons and the ability to project force into other people's territory. (the commons being the seas outside territorial waters and airspace above 15,000 feet) The military hardware and training necessary to do that is an order of magnitude more expensive than what it costs to set up local defenses. A good example is that if defense of your territorial waters from ships was your primary goal a fleet of relatively cheap diesel submarines would work just fine instead of super expensive nuclear subs. (in some ways better as diesels are quieter than nukes when running on batteries). Surface to air missile batteries are way cheaper than maintaining a worldwide air force, etc, etc.

In short we spend so much money on our military because we want to make it so if you piss us off there's basically nowhere on earth we can't reach you. Anyone who thinks our military spending is driven by defending Europe is a fucking idiot.

True. For the cost of the F-35 program alone you could probably issue an RPG-9, an AK-47, and an FIM-92 to every able bodied person on the Russian border and still have money left over.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
126
I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if Russia invades a country that doesn't bother to spend it's 2% on its own defense, waiting to take our good sweet time to come to their defense so when they are liberated there's little left of their country once the Russians get done plundering it.

I'm fine with the world containing the US as cancer. I'm also thinking that Europe should develop a worldwide and robust nuke problem, state of the art, and point some missiles towards DC, then kick us out. If you are good with killing alliances and Putin invading and killing Europeans I'm fine with the Euros treating us as enemies.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,529
15,052
136
I'm fine with the world containing the US as cancer. I'm also thinking that Europe should develop a worldwide and robust nuke problem, state of the art, and point some missiles towards DC, then kick us out. If you are good with killing alliances and Putin invading and killing Europeans I'm fine with the Euros treating us as enemies.

Dude you've turned real bitter over the last couple of months. I guess thats the Trump effect, he effectively forces everyone to take a side, to take a stand.. Radicalization on both sides. For better and for worse.
 
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