Trump Brussels Damage Report

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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,260
9,738
136
I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if Russia invades a country that doesn't bother to spend it's 2% on its own defense, waiting to take our good sweet time to come to their defense so when they are liberated there's little left of their country once the Russians get done plundering it.
The party of Reagan is dead folks! Final nail in the coffin!
 
Reactions: Fanatical Meat

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
What it is, is a colossal dickhead fucking over the established world order for some reason. This reason is perplexing. Does dickhead think china is going to back down? This is a country that has over a long period of time told everyone else to go and fuck themselves.

To the point that they have essentially seized a major shipping way and deployed military assets to control it. In other words it will require major military action to dislodge them and a positive outcome from a western perspective is far from guaranteed. The thing is dickhead has some legitimate complaints about the reds but that is what the world trade organization is for. Weird times that we live in.
Yeah, I'm at the point where it only seems logical to expect the absolute worst from the toddling American dicktator.

The man who would replace him is very high, if not higher than he on the regression scale.

The NATO warning regarding our dwindling allies was pretty shocking to me, and nothing like anything I've seen in my long years, and my parents made sure that I was politically plugged-in at a very early age. Back then Viet Nam was the national atrocity/embarrassment (with no intended disrespect toward the service men and women who were ordered to do those awful things).

We keep digging holes that have wide repercussions (see Iraq invasion/leader assassination), and I think the world is sick of American chutzpah and her egotistical/xenophobic myopia with all its extensive damage. The rest of the world has seen Trump rallies too with those horrible words. Oh my dear lord.

My international Journalism friends wanted to know my position on our national nightmare/embarrassment. We are not looked upon nearly as well as we used to be. If Gavin Newsom becomes California governor, IMO he'd be the perfect candidate to right this badly listing ship in '20. He governs with empathy like so many greats.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
126
Dude you've turned real bitter over the last couple of months. I guess thats the Trump effect, he effectively forces everyone to take a side, to take a stand.. Radicalization on both sides. For better and for worse.

I would disagree with bitter, but I am fed up with a clear and present danger being taken as "oh that's just Trump". I would bet you real money that if Putin annexed more countries, including NATO members, that Trump would not honor our treaties with you. That's an extraordinary statement perhaps but I've been aware of the good, the bad, and the ugly of US foreign policy and have never, ever seen the likes of this. I would dare say that's true going back to 1776.

We are not the nation we were just twenty years ago.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,216
53,722
136
I would disagree with bitter, but I am fed up with a clear and present danger being taken as "oh that's just Trump". I would bet you real money that if Putin annexed more countries, including NATO members, that Trump would not honor our treaties with you. That's an extraordinary statement perhaps but I've been aware of the good, the bad, and the ugly of US foreign policy and have never, ever seen the likes of this. I would dare say that's true going back to 1776.

We are not the nation we were just twenty years ago.

I agree with this and it's pretty scary. I suspect if Russia just up and declared war and ran some tanks across the border the US would probably (PROBABLY!!) be compelled to respond. If he pulled another Ukraine with the 'little green men'? I have my doubts the US would do anything. Trump would just say 'we don't know what's going on over there' and leave it at that.

It's amazing how much damage he's been able to do to our country in about 18 months and almost all of it was foreseeable.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,802
17,338
136
I agree with this and it's pretty scary. I suspect if Russia just up and declared war and ran some tanks across the border the US would probably (PROBABLY!!) be compelled to respond. If he pulled another Ukraine with the 'little green men'? I have my doubts the US would do anything. Trump would just say 'we don't know what's going on over there' and leave it at that.

It's amazing how much damage he's been able to do to our country in about 18 months and almost all of it was foreseeable.

I’d like to think in the first event Congress would finally regain their power to declare war and Trump would be forced to do something not so sure about scenario two...
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Assholeness is subjective... In my opinion it is all about freedom. The second your vote doesnt count for anything at the ballots anymore thats the second it is game over. You've got incoming.
I agree, and IMO voting with the electoral college undermines freedom along with the tricks to eliminate certain populations and gerrymandering. I feel far from free, and more like manipulated.

In 2000 the remedy for the electoral closeness looked and was a partisan process. Freedom is free until greed for power gets in the way IMO.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,802
17,338
136
I agree, and IMO voting with the electoral college undermines freedom along with the tricks to eliminate certain populations and gerrymandering. I feel far from free, and more like manipulated.

In 2000 the remedy for the electoral closeness looked and was a partisan process. Freedom is free until greed for power gets in the way IMO.

The fix is so simple yet so unobtainable. No more electoral college, just use the popular vote. Fewer Trumps, fewer Hillary’s
 
Reactions: bradly1101

Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,281
3,083
136
My hope is that Europe and the rest of the world just waits out this idiocy until it subsides. For things like tariffs, they have to fire back immediately if Trump jumps from talking to trade war, that's a given. My fear is that they are going to be waiting another 6 years if they want to wait it out.
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if Russia invades a country that doesn't bother to spend it's 2% on its own defense, waiting to take our good sweet time to come to their defense so when they are liberated there's little left of their country once the Russians get done plundering it.
You're a piece of human filth!
 
Reactions: outriding

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,300
2,632
136
Trump's barrage of attacks 'beyond belief,' reeling NATO diplomats say

NATO diplomats are dumbfounded by President Donald Trump's barrage of acidic rhetoric at the annual summit in Brussels on Wednesday.
Trump came out brawling in his first public comments, accusing NATO ally Germany of being "a captive of Russia," calling members of the alliance "delinquent" in their defense spending and insisting they increase it "immediately."
"It's like the world has gone crazy this morning," one senior European diplomat told CNN. "Trump's performance was beyond belief."
The President's remarks sent officials scrambling for answers, triggered ripples of dismay among defense officials and alarmed members of Trump's own party enough that one worried aloud the President is trying to "tear down" the 29-member alliance. The Republican-controlled House, usually careful to stay in lockstep with Trump, passed a resolution to send a "strong message of support" for NATO.
"This is very confusing," another senior European diplomat said. Referring to Trump's targeting of Germany, this envoy said, "the attacks before, and now this tremendous stuff today. It doesn't make any sense. We're still in the process of analyzing it."...


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/11/politics/trump-nato-diplomats-reaction/index.html

The Art of the Deal... yeah right . Not sure if any of Trumps voters realize what they have unleashed upon the world. Amusing if it were a small banana state where repercussions are limited. Lets see how things stand at the end of his term.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,802
17,338
136
No talk of today Trump mimicking what Putin said “I am a stable genius”
Incredibly weird after a shitty NATO meeting a day before meeting is boy crush.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
This is nonsense. Trade deficits are not necessarily good or bad and in our case a trade deficit is probably a good thing. (it has led to massive foreign investment in the US, which is great for us.) Regardless of this our trade deficits have nothing to do with the wisdom or lack thereof of having bases in Europe. We are also not even remotely spending $100 billion a year on the defense of Europe. (out of a total of ~1.1 million US service members 65,000 are in Europe, about 6%.)

In the end the US has bases in Europe because we want bases in Europe to project power from, not because we are being nice guys and subsidizing Europe's defense. They will likely increase their own defense spending but it will be at the expense (har) of US influence because they will be moving to a phase where a US partnership is less desirable. While Trump may pull our troops from Europe there's also a decent chance Europe will just request that they leave anyway. (Germany's population wants US troops out, after all).

Regardless, Europe won't be giving in to Trump's demands. Primarily because Trump's demands are nonsensical and can't actually be met because they aren't real and secondly because you have to remember that the US has basically no leverage anymore because we can't make credible commitments. Nobody trusts Trump to stick by any agreement they make.

It is not non-sense. It is no longer economically viable for America to bolster the defense of Europe given the current economic relationship. Great Britain learned this first hand after they lost the American colonies. They realized they could enjoy all of the economic benefits without having to pay for the cost to defend these lands. Now, the regular base operating costs are a drop in the bucket for America, but when you factor in the long term R&D, weapons and equipment costs, and defensive systems, it's much higher. After all, bases mean nothing if you don't have stuff there. You also can't forget the operating, training, and munitions costs the US Navy absorbs by patrolling the Atlantic and Mediterranean, not to mention the actual cost of the ships themselves. Don't you realize that the US military doesn't have to be as big if it weren't stationed in Europe? This global presence does not come cheap, and costs hundreds of billions of dollars each year.

And no, I'm not advocating for an immediate pull out of Europe and an immediate downsizing of our military. All I'm trying to do is put the real costs of operating in such a geopolitical fashion. The US cannot continue to afford its massive, global military dominance along with its other problems it must tackle: Infrastructure, rising obligatory health care costs, global warming impact, deforestation and soil deprivation, and social security. We've been funding this stuff off debt, and our debt to GDP levels have tripled since 1980. It's unsustainable with some form of renegotiation. The last time it was this high was at the end of WW2.

As for attracting foreign investment, I'll give you that, but only indirectly. War is the fastest way to throw away economic progress, and maintaining peace is fantastic for prosperity. America has always been an attractive place for foreign investment, and its economic might makes it even more attractive. The internet, actually, has been a phenomenal tool for foreign investment, because it allows for greater transparency and up-to-date statistics on a company's performance.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
126
I’d like to think in the first event Congress would finally regain their power to declare war and Trump would be forced to do something not so sure about scenario two...

A core fundamental tenet, perhaps the One Above All is trade and business. More than taxes, more than The Wall. If trade is harmed then corporate interests are as well. In a move equivalent to Dems donning Klan garb in Congress and wanting to reinstate slavery, the Republicans have allowed Trump to completely undo generations of policy and scarcely a word against it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,216
53,722
136
It is not non-sense. It is no longer economically viable for America to bolster the defense of Europe given the current economic relationship.

Can you provide any empirical evidence for why current US troop deployments are no longer viable? They consume such a small fraction of the US military budget it's hard to imagine any situation in which that's true. I would not be surprised if total US costs increased if we got rid of those bases.

Great Britain learned this first hand after they lost the American colonies. They realized they could enjoy all of the economic benefits without having to pay for the cost to defend these lands. Now, the regular base operating costs are a drop in the bucket for America, but when you factor in the long term R&D, weapons and equipment costs, and defensive systems, it's much higher. After all, bases mean nothing if you don't have stuff there.

We do not conduct military R&D in order to defend Europe and I'm aware of no plausible argument that says R&D would decline if we withdrew all our troops tomorrow. In fact it would probably increase as we would need longer range ships and aircraft due to the loss of forward bases.

You also can't forget the operating, training, and munitions costs the US Navy absorbs by patrolling the Atlantic and Mediterranean, not to mention the actual cost of the ships themselves. Don't you realize that the US military doesn't have to be as big if it weren't stationed in Europe? This global presence does not come cheap, and costs hundreds of billions of dollars each year.

The US Navy would be in those locations regardless of NATO and without NATO our costs for patrolling those areas would be several orders of magnitude higher. (we are mostly in the Med to launch stuff at the Middle East and Africa, not to protect Italy) This would cost us money, not save it. As for the size of the US military, US forces in Europe comprise about 5% of all US forces. Even if every single person we stationed in Europe had their position eliminated, which of course would not be viable, it would not significantly affect US military expenditures.

And no, I'm not advocating for an immediate pull out of Europe and an immediate downsizing of our military. All I'm trying to do is put the real costs of operating in such a geopolitical fashion. The US cannot continue to afford its massive, global military dominance along with its other problems it must tackle: Infrastructure, rising obligatory health care costs, global warming impact, deforestation and soil deprivation, and social security. We've been funding this stuff off debt, and our debt to GDP levels have tripled since 1980. It's unsustainable with some form of renegotiation. The last time it was this high was at the end of WW2.

It's unsustainable based on what? Are you claiming if we got more favorable trade deals and ran a trade surplus that our debt/GDP ratio would decline and this would equate to some better standard of living for US persons? What's the basis for this?

As for attracting foreign investment, I'll give you that, but only indirectly. War is the fastest way to throw away economic progress, and maintaining peace is fantastic for prosperity. America has always been an attractive place for foreign investment, and its economic might makes it even more attractive. The internet, actually, has been a phenomenal tool for foreign investment, because it allows for greater transparency and up-to-date statistics on a company's performance.

If you're attracting foreign investment then you are by definition lowering your trade surplus or widening your trade gap.
 

tamaron

Member
Apr 29, 2008
47
4
71
I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if Russia invades a country that doesn't bother to spend it's 2% on its own defense, waiting to take our good sweet time to come to their defense so when they are liberated there's little left of their country once the Russians get done plundering it.
That 2% is mandatory? Who is sayin that? You? Your president? We must obey without hesitation?. NO.
Here is an example of why some opinions should not be taken into account. Have a good day sir.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
32,439
10,579
136
It is not non-sense. It is no longer economically viable for America to bolster the defense of Europe given the current economic relationship. Great Britain learned this first hand after they lost the American colonies. They realized they could enjoy all of the economic benefits without having to pay for the cost to defend these lands. Now, the regular base operating costs are a drop in the bucket for America, but when you factor in the long term R&D, weapons and equipment costs, and defensive systems, it's much higher. After all, bases mean nothing if you don't have stuff there. You also can't forget the operating, training, and munitions costs the US Navy absorbs by patrolling the Atlantic and Mediterranean, not to mention the actual cost of the ships themselves. Don't you realize that the US military doesn't have to be as big if it weren't stationed in Europe? This global presence does not come cheap, and costs hundreds of billions of dollars each year.

And no, I'm not advocating for an immediate pull out of Europe and an immediate downsizing of our military. All I'm trying to do is put the real costs of operating in such a geopolitical fashion. The US cannot continue to afford its massive, global military dominance along with its other problems it must tackle: Infrastructure, rising obligatory health care costs, global warming impact, deforestation and soil deprivation, and social security. We've been funding this stuff off debt, and our debt to GDP levels have tripled since 1980. It's unsustainable with some form of renegotiation. The last time it was this high was at the end of WW2.

As for attracting foreign investment, I'll give you that, but only indirectly. War is the fastest way to throw away economic progress, and maintaining peace is fantastic for prosperity. America has always been an attractive place for foreign investment, and its economic might makes it even more attractive. The internet, actually, has been a phenomenal tool for foreign investment, because it allows for greater transparency and up-to-date statistics on a company's performance.
The idea that you would spend less on the military if Europe, Russia and China suddenly started building up their military seems naive in the extreme!
 
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