Ubuntu Server LAMP

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bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
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I found out today I can't use Ubuntu Server anyways on my server box. Apparently the server edition doesn't like "fakeraid" hardware configurations and has to be customized at the programing level to get it to work. Apparently there isn't a guide on how to do it on the server version so I just gave up. The only Linux drivers for the RAID card are SuSe and Redhat and both are 3 years old. Ohh well. I can't even find a Windows 2003 Server driver for the RAID but that's in another thread.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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I found out today I can't use Ubuntu Server anyways on my server box. Apparently the server edition doesn't like "fakeraid" hardware configurations and has to be customized at the programing level to get it to work.

If that's true, and I really don't doubt it, I wouldn't consider using that "fakeraid" system under an OS at all.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Linux software raid is better then fakeraid.

Realise that with 'fakeraid' what is happenning is that your emulating hardware functions on your main CPU. It's very similar to the difference between a software modem or a Winmodem versus a 'real' serial modem. In those cases you using stripped down hardware that provides a interface for the software emulation.

Effectively with fakeraid your using software raid, but instead of using what is provided by your OS vendor your using drivers to run software raid. This works great in Windows-desktop-land were Microsoft has disabled the software raid functions in their desktop OSes, but in Linux you don't have that limitation.

When you compare the fakeraid drivers provided by the hardware manufacturers versus the Linux built-in software raid the Linux software raid is superior in quality, performance, and capabilities. It's faster, it's more widely used, massively tested, people have reviewed the source code over and over and over again and has proven itself over the years. Fakeraid drivers are proprietary, generally worse quality, and generally perform badly.

For server stuff it's a way that hardware vendors can sell you 'RAID' without actually having to actually provide it.

It's actually faster then hardware raid if you want to get down to it. There are a few benchmarks here and there and always show Linux MD raid as competitive with hardware raid. Most people think of 3d performance with video cards when they think of hardware vs software... but video cards are unique. With hardware raid your using generic intel or risc cpus running at a few hundred mhz. Software raid with a low-end Intel cpu running at 2ghz absolutely stomps all over them.

That's not to say that Linux MD is better then hardware raid. What you want to use depends heavily on budget, size of the array, recovery features, cache, PCI bus bandwidth and other such factors. Hardware raid is certainly desirable... there are a lot of things that expensive hardware raid controllers can do to help a busy server and protect data that software raid just can't do yet.

But this is why it's difficult to use fakeraid in Linux sometimes. The developers know that software raid is better and given a choice this is what you want to use 95% of the time when you have to make a choice. faster, more stable, safer, etc

Sometimes fakeraid can have some sort of limited acceleration for some things... but it's probably not worth it to bother with that sort of thing much.

About the only time when you want to bother with fakeraid stuff in Linux is so you can get compatability with Windows using the fakeraid on the same machine when dual booting. That's when it's actually usefull.


This page is quite usefull for this sort of stuff...
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Hardware/sata.html

Here is a classic benchmark were Linux MD stomps all over 3ware raid card. With some functions the software raid is more then twice as fast.
(remember their are still lots of advantages of hardware raid other then speed. On higher end stuff hardware raid is still going to be faster and more desirable.. talking about SAN sort of things especially... so don't get me wrong)
http://spamaps.org/raidtests.php


 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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The RAID setup in this server is the Promise FastTrak100 ATA setup. I only see the "fakeraid" term mentioned on the Ubuntu web site.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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It's fakeraid.

There is a onboard ASIC on some Fasttrak models that that are able to perform some XOR operations that may help a little bit, but it's only aviable on certain models and it's not like it realy going to make a noticable difference on a modern machine either way. Something like TX-2 won't have the XOR function, but TX-4 and other stuff will. I don't know for sure.

Dmraid should support it as you've already found through mucking around with Ubuntu. I think that there was some sort of proprietary driver released by promise, but I think it only worked for 2.4 series kernels.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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The RAID setup in this server is the Promise FastTrak100 ATA setup. I only see the "fakeraid" term mentioned on the Ubuntu web site.

It's called fakeraid there for a reason. That reason being that all of the real work is done in the driver and thus in software anyway so there's virtually no advantage to using it over "normal" software RAID.
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
The RAID setup in this server is the Promise FastTrak100 ATA setup. I only see the "fakeraid" term mentioned on the Ubuntu web site.

It's called fakeraid there for a reason. That reason being that all of the real work is done in the driver and thus in software anyway so there's virtually no advantage to using it over "normal" software RAID.

Other than it's built in on these servers and theres now way around using it. I might just dump these servers and try to get something a little newer and not limited to W2000 era drivers.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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Other than it's built in on these servers and theres now way around using it. I might just dump these servers and try to get something a little newer and not limited to W2000 era drivers.

So you can't just setup the disks JBOD and use them individually?
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Other than it's built in on these servers and theres now way around using it. I might just dump these servers and try to get something a little newer and not limited to W2000 era drivers.

So you can't just setup the disks JBOD and use them individually?

I can but the point I bought these servers were for the RAID1 setup plus Ubuntu requires an equally complicated set of modifications to get past that and see the drives by themselves while booting. I already tried deleting the array and installing Ubuntu on drive one and it still errored. Now I need to sell these two server and try to afford something rackmountable, RAID1 compliant and still under $250ish.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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I can but the point I bought these servers were for the RAID1 setup plus Ubuntu requires an equally complicated set of modifications to get past that and see the drives by themselves while booting. I already tried deleting the array and installing Ubuntu on drive one and it still errored. Now I need to sell these two server and try to afford something rackmountable, RAID1 compliant and still under $250ish.

If you can get Ubuntu to see them as a JBOD set you can use Linux software RAID to mirror them, hardware mirrors won't perform any better.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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Ya...

Personally I don't have a problem with buying anything with a 'fakeraid' controller or anything. I have no bias against them... To me they are just slightly fancy IDE-PCI adapters. After all, most 'server' motherboards nowadays do support one or another type of fakeraid anyways. And Intel boards that support 'raid' levels use AHCI compatable SATA controllers (not all Intel chipsets do support this, look for Intel's 'storage technology' stuff), which are desirable because Linux supports things like NCQ, limited power management, and hotplug on them.

Set them up so the OS sees invididual disks then use the server install (because, I guess, the Ubuntu live cdrom install doesn't support software raid for some bizzare reason) and, partition them, set up the RAID1 that way using the partitions. (use one big partition on the drive if you want to use the entire drive) Very standard, very vanilla way of operating.

If you have problems with that then use Debian. I've never had any issues with Etch's installer and software raid, but I don't see any reason why Ubuntu 'server install' should be different..
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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I'm selling the servers and going after something which has better support and parts availability. I spent 3 days trying to find rail kits for these units that weren't over $150. Plus I can't find drivers for anything other than XP or 2000Pro for the RAID card.
 

Brazen

Diamond Member
Jul 14, 2000
4,259
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Originally posted by: bluestrobe
I'm selling the servers and going after something which has better support and parts availability. I spent 3 days trying to find rail kits for these units that weren't over $150. Plus I can't find drivers for anything other than XP or 2000Pro for the RAID card.

All you have to do, is go into the BIOS and there should be an option for the controller to be in "RAID" mode or "ATA" mode. Just set it to ATA mode and then you can use mdraid on it with Ubuntu. It's really very simple.

Otherwise, sell them off and get a Dell PowerEdge. I've yet to see a PowerEdge server that included anything that wasn't fully supported in the linux 2.6 kernel.
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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Originally posted by: BrazenOtherwise, sell them off and get a Dell PowerEdge. I've yet to see a PowerEdge server that included anything that wasn't fully supported in the linux 2.6 kernel.


that's my plan. Now to find one that's at least a low end xeon and doesn't cost it's weight in gold.
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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So whats it take to setup mdraid on these servers? I don't think I'm going to get enough money for them on eBay to justify selling them. I'll buy a dell poweredge down the road when I have more income.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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If you mean Linux software RAID you need the Ubuntu alternative CD as I don't think the LiveCD will do the RAID/LVM stuff. If you mean dmraid, the Linux support for the fakeraid controllers, I'm not sure how you would make Ubuntu install to that.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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Ya...

DM in DMraid is 'Device-Mapper'.
http://people.redhat.com/~heinzm/sw/dmraid/readme

MD is for Linux software raid. MD stands for 'Multi-Disk'.


Generally speaking MD is more desirable DMRaid for a veriaty of reasons. It has a lot more features, for one. For another it's a lot easier to setup. Just set the disks up so that it's JBOD.
http://knowledge76.com/index.p...all_With_Software_RAID


Here is how you install Ubuntu onto dmraid thing:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FakeRaidHowto
and another...
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=464758


 

Brazen

Diamond Member
Jul 14, 2000
4,259
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
If you mean Linux software RAID you need the Ubuntu alternative CD as I don't think the LiveCD will do the RAID/LVM stuff. If you mean dmraid, the Linux support for the fakeraid controllers, I'm not sure how you would make Ubuntu install to that.

I would assume since he is setting up a server that he is using the Server install CD. The Server install CD should work just fine for setting up mdraid. Also be sure you are using Ubuntu Dapper. Dapper is much much more reliable and stable with the server applications than Edgy or Feisty.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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Yea, I forgot about the LTS release of Ubuntu since I'm used to dealing with Debian which just has one stable release at a time.
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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I'm Using the Ubuntu 7.04 Server setup CD. Thanks for the directions drag, that's a lot easier than I have found on the subject.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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I've haven't looked at it closely, but it appears that the Ubuntu alternative cd is essentially using Debian's default installer.

The Live cdrom installer is very convient for new users and I like it, but so far the Debian installer is much more effective at it's job.

In the future it may help to look at the Debian installation manual, which is very extensive. Plus it will show you alternative ways to install Debian that will be very usefull if you have to do things like install it on a large number of machines or install it in machines over the network and such things.

(for example if you have a bunch of similar machines then setting up a preconfiguration file will help automate most of the setup. Most of this stuff should apply to Ubuntu also.)

I don't think it's worth it to read through the entire thing, but to scan through it would be very nice.
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual

Also if you have multiple servers one huge thing that is helpfull at making things go fast is using a apt-cache'ng mechanism like apt-proxy or approx. These things act as a sort of proxy so when you download your updates or new program then it will cache it so the next machine you update will pull it down from your local lan rather then over the internet. When you have a couple Ubuntu or Debian machines to keep up to date then this is a huge time saver, and money saver also if you have metered bandwidth.

I've had the best luck with approx...
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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I guess I better start reading up on partitioning with Linux. Only used the auto wizards with Linux when partitioning. Right now I will be installing this on one server and maybe the second one once I get the hang of Ubuntu Server.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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It's really not that difficult once you get used to it, but if these servers are for other people you'll probably want to talk to them about how they want things laid out.
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
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These servers are for me and I should be the only one dealing with them for the time being.

edit: I installed Ubuntu Server on a spare system I had here. Is there a good web site explaining the commands. I know about the Ubuntu site but I like more than one source for variety. I also might pick up a dummy book if they have one for the server version.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
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I wouldn't look for an Ubuntu specific book, especially an Ubuntu server specific. Linux is LInux, and the commands and concepts are pretty universal (imho)
 
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