Unfair Traffic Citation - PLEASE HELP

Ditiris

Junior Member
Oct 21, 2000
19
0
0
I'm a 22 year-old graduate student; I drive a 2002 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R, and this is the reason I believe I got pulled over. If you are a lawyer, think you can help, or have some sound advice, PLEASE email me at jtmiller@utdallas.edu.

This post will be broken up into:
A short version of the event.
A long version of the event.
What I'm doing to fight the ticket.
What I need help with.

SHORT VERSION: Officer stated I was following too closely on a freeway in moderately heavy traffic.

LONG VERSION: I was driving on southbound US-75 north of Dallas in the left part of the leftmost lane because there is a large median to the left which I can swerve into should the situation demand it. I was within five miles per hour of the speed limit, wearing armored boots, gloves, a jacket, a DOT and SNELL approved full-face helmet with a tinted visor, and jeans. The temperature was around 95 degrees (closer to 98) and I was still wearing all my safety gear. The officer entered the freeway in an unmarked police car, a red sedan with low-profile antennas and the search light on the driver?s side. The officer was in his uniform and other cars obviously noticed the officer because some slammed on their brakes. The officer proceeded across three lanes of traffic to the left lane. The officer in effect created a line in front of him which the other cars would not pass. I gladly would have changed lanes and passed the officer but could not because there was a barrier of cars around me. After driving behind the officer for around ten minutes, the officer briefly flashed his red and blues. At this point I had no idea what was going on, I had both the clutch and brake covered, and I backed off a bit from the officer. There was a good deal of space in front of the officer, because the traffic did not want to pass. A little while later, the officer turned on his red and blues and began slowing. The traffic slowed with the officer and I had no idea what was going on. I knew that I no longer wanted to follow this vehicle. I looked to the right, signaled, the lane was clear, and I proceeded to pass the officer. I looked into his car as I was passing to see if what was amiss and it looked like he was waving me over. I pointed incredulously to myself and the officer signaled yes, he meant me by shaking his head, and motioned to the left median. I passed the officer and gradually slowed down in the left median, dodging the various road hazards. The officer got out and told me I was following him too closely. We did the license and insurance bit. The insurance card I was carrying in the bike was for thirty days from when I got the insurance because the bike was brand new. I did not know this. I have valid insurance, so this isn?t a problem. The officer curtly explained it was a law that I was required to follow at least two seconds behind him. He repeatedly asked me to take off my helmet. I didn?t know why he wanted my helmet off since I was answering his questions and he could hear me just fine. He kept repeating the law was two seconds and I was nowhere near that, and kept asking me to take off my helmet. After taking off my helmet he asked me how close I thought I was. I was quite flustered at this point and more worried about re-entering into the fast lane of traffic on a major highway. I believe I said ?I?m not sure, maybe a second, second and a half. I don?t really know.? And the truth is I don?t. When I was driving, I hadn?t counted off my seconds in some time. This was a cop, I didn?t think following a bit close was a risk since most cops don?t drive erratically. I took the Motorcycle Safety Course before I got my motorcycle?s license, before I got my bike. I know what the two-second rule is, and I employ it most of the time. I know about safe lane positions, etc. For the specific conditions, I thought I was in the safest place on that freeway. After answering the ?How close do you think you were?? statement with my helmet off the officer cut me off in mid-sentence and told me to look for a current insurance card and went back to his squad car. At this point I was pretty sure I was going to get a ticket for invalid insurance, but wasn?t really worried. Again, I was more concerned with getting back onto the freeway safely. The officer returned with two citations. One for the invalid insurance, but the first citation was for following too closely. I simply couldn?t believe it. I became irate, but still managed to address the officer in what I would deem a respectful manner. A heated argument ensued. The officer didn?t really answer any of my questions about what statute spelled-out safe following distances, etc. He effectively ending the conversation by telling me he had me on tape saying one second and telling me to get back on my bike and leave. The officer then went into his car and proceeded to write quite a bit. I still had my gloves on and was struggling with the strap-retention system on my helmet. I stood staring at the officer for a good deal of time. He glanced up at me several times. I was doing two things here. I was waiting for him to re-enter the freeway hoping to create a space for me to do so, and I was venting steam. I didn?t think it was a good idea to start driving as upset as I was. Eventually I took off my glove which made it much easier to find the little elastic band of material that holds the helmet strap in place. I probably took five minutes to do this. The officer just sat in his car, writing, glancing up at me periodically. He did not help me re-enter the freeway. A Harley biker created a space for me to re-enter.

WHAT I?M DOING TO FIGHT THE TICKET: I will be getting the insurance citation dismissed today. I wrote down another, even more detailed description of the event as soon as I got home. A friend said the tapes were by law publicly accessible and I will be getting the tape from that day. Later today I will also take pictures of similar traffic conditions. Same time of day, same place on the freeway. I will also be filing a complaint against the officer.

WHAT I NEED HELP WITH: I don?t know the law that well. A friend also told me there is a law concerning following distance that is actually three seconds. I need to know what this law is, where it is, how to find it and read it, etc. I want the ticket dismissed, obviously. I want a better guarantee than ?the officer probably won?t show up to court.? I want to file a complaint against the officer, possibly a lawsuit. In my estimation, he pulled me over merely because I was on a flashy sports bike. I was not driving in an unsafe manner. I was in full safety-gear. I?ve taken the MSF course. My license and registration, as well as insurance are all in proper order. The fact of the matter is that pulling me over into that left median, which is fraught with hazards, was much more dangerous than me following him a little closely. Making me re-enter rush hour traffic into the fast lane on a major freeway is much more dangerous than me following him a little closely. If I was following him too closely he should have done what I do when someone is tailgating me, speed up and move over, or slow down and move over. I?m still a little upset, as you can tell.
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
13
81
When they ask you how close you were, how fast you were going, ALWAYS SAY "I DONT KNOW!!" Thats very important, becuase you admitted guilt already.
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
The officer will have written down which section of the Texas hehicle code you are charged with violating. You're going to have to find that on yourt ticket, and look it up (I know the california vehicle code is publsihed online, I don't know about Texas - if you can't find it online the DMV should have it). You should read over that very carefully. The law may very well not mention "seconds" at all. The california law says:

The driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the speed of such vehicle and the traffic upon, and the condition of, the roadway.

If you were to go to a judge with that, you could argue that on a well maintained road, you had left plenty of space to stop between you and the Police car. YOu could even bring in statistics comparing the 60-0 time for your motorcycle and a Crown Victoria Police cruiser.

Filing a complaint against the officer will be a waste of time, just try to get out of the ticket.

edit: It dosn't sound like your friend really knows as much as he thinks he does, as I serioulsy doubt the Texas law mentions how nay seconds behind a car you have to be. Also, what "tapes" are you referring to?
 

Murphyrulez

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2001
1,890
0
0
I'll bet next time you won't be riding on a cops ass though....


What were you smoking that made you think that was a good idea?
 

Windogg

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,241
0
0
Afraid you are SOL. Apparently you caught the cop on a bad day. As a general rule, you never try and be behind a cop car. Think of it this way, how many times has someone tailgated you and your reaction was "if only i could......"

The ticket was guaranteed when you didn't take off your helmet. Look at it this way, the cop wants to make sure you are who you say you are. By keeping your helmet on only seemed to have ticked him off more.

Again, do some research. Chances are the state just wants some money. Goto court, apologize, and the judge/magistrate might remove the points.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Well this is a pretty minor ticket (so that's good). I dunno I'd say that it's going to be a lot of effort to get it waived (if it even is). It's really his word against yours and for such a small thign I'm not sure it's worth it. Basically although you want to fight the principle of it when cops are involved just be super careful to be a "good little boy" cause they often have no leniency at all.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Quit the bitching and PAY THE FVCKING TICKET.

I'm soo tired of all this whining. OMFG, so you got a ticket. You knew you were going to get one and you did. so STFU.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: iamwiz82
When they ask you how close you were, how fast you were going, ALWAYS SAY "I DONT KNOW!!" Thats very important, becuase you admitted guilt already.

NEVER - EVER - say "I don't know". It PROVES you weren't paying atention. Instead, answer "I was following safetly at a safe speed."

And if you are serious about fight this ticket - 1) research the traffic laws in your state (they are either online or at a law library). 2) THEN decide what to do based on your research. No one here will be able to help you (since they are hearing only your side of the story) - and a lawyer is big bux.

 

Toasthead

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2001
6,621
0
0
So,

You admitted to following too closely to another vehicle AND tried to pass an emergency vehicle while it had it's lights on?

Maybe you should read your DMV book again. Have fun getting humiliated by the Judge.

--Toast
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: iamwiz82
When they ask you how close you were, how fast you were going, ALWAYS SAY "I DONT KNOW!!" Thats very important, becuase you admitted guilt already.

No.
When asked how fast you were going, always quote the exact speed limit for that area. Say that even if it is a bald-faced lie. The burden of evidence falls to the state to find you guilty. Protesting innocence makes the state's job that much harder.
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
13
81
Originally posted by: PSYWVic
Originally posted by: iamwiz82
When they ask you how close you were, how fast you were going, ALWAYS SAY "I DONT KNOW!!" Thats very important, becuase you admitted guilt already.

No.
When asked how fast you were going, always quote the exact speed limit for that area. Say that even if it is a bald-faced lie. The burden of evidence falls to the state to find you guilty. Protesting innocence makes the state's job that much harder.

ok, this is good advice too.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
Originally posted by: iamwiz82
Originally posted by: PSYWVic
Originally posted by: iamwiz82
When they ask you how close you were, how fast you were going, ALWAYS SAY "I DONT KNOW!!" Thats very important, becuase you admitted guilt already.

No.
When asked how fast you were going, always quote the exact speed limit for that area. Say that even if it is a bald-faced lie. The burden of evidence falls to the state to find you guilty. Protesting innocence makes the state's job that much harder.

ok, this is good advice too.

This is true, I did that once when pulled for probably going triple digits (speedo only went to 85 and it was buried) when I was younger and didn't get a ticket. He stormed up to the car asked if I knew how fast I was going and I said 'Yes sir, 55.' The cop took me to his car and gave me a tongue lashing but that's better than a fine. Every time before that when I said 'I don't know' or owned up I got a ticket.
 

cavingjan

Golden Member
Nov 15, 1999
1,719
0
0
The insurance should be a give me although they can be a pain and keep it since you are required to carry valid insurance with you any time you operate a motor vehicle.

The 3 (or 2 dependant upon the state) second rule is based upon driver attention and not on braking rates or stopping distance. I wouldn't bother bringing up the fact that you can stop faster than him. The basis for the rule is how long your eyes are off the road in front of you to check mirrors, speedometer, etc before they come back to look at the road in front of you.

BTW for 65 MPH, you should have 95 ft between you and the person you are following (for the 3 second rule). Not that this happens at all during rush hour.

Not taking the helmet off seems like the equivalent of opening your window just enough to pass the papers through the slit.
 

Ditiris

Junior Member
Oct 21, 2000
19
0
0
For those who care I'm going to clarify some things and rebuff an ignorant accusation.

First off, I did take off my helmet. I said I didn't know why he wanted it off since he could obviously hear me since we were having a conversation. I found out later (through Internal Affairs) that this is a fairly standard practice, although it is not standard operating procedure. My point with the whole helmet thing is I believe he asked me to remove my helmet simply so he could get a clear recording of my voice on tape saying I was less than two seconds behind him. I obviously did not know everything was being taped. Stupid, trusting me. I actually love to watch those ?World?s Scariest Police Chases? videos, should have known better.

Second, there is no two second law. There is no three second law. The Texas Transportation Code statute states (thanks notfred):

§ 545.062. Following Distance

(a) An operator shall, if following another vehicle, maintain an assured clear distance between the two vehicles so that, considering the speed of the vehicles, traffic, and the conditions of the highway, the operator can safely stop without colliding with the preceding vehicle or veering into another vehicle, object, or person on or near the highway.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
As such, I believe all I have to prove is that I was at a sufficient distance to stop. I was. And there really isn?t any way he can prove I wasn?t. After all, I didn?t hit him.

In response to Toasthead?s rather ignorant and self-righteous comment about passing an emergency vehicle being illegal and getting laughed out of court: this is not true. The IA officer certainly didn?t laugh me out of his office, and in fact from my account of the event the IA officer found several other things wrong with what the ticketing officer did. On the legal side, the officer did several things illegally. He visually cued me to pull over to the left. According to 545.156 you should pull to the right. I did not pass the police officer until he motioned me to the left median. I was acting in accordance to 545.156 which states when approached by an authorized emergency vehicle you should yield the right of way, which I did being behind him and all, and you should pull to the right as close to the curb as possible and come to a stop until the officer passes. I was in the process of pulling to the right but the officer was slowing down and so I pulled parallel with him. If you?re going to mouth off like you know something, perhaps you should know what the hell you?re talking about first. In addition, the officer is quite likely in violation of several sections of chapter 546, which governs emergency vehicle behavior.

So what am I doing now? Well, I got the insurance part dismissed today, and I have set a date for the pretrial. I will be requesting the tape from the police officer?s cruiser, along with a number of other documents as part of the discovery process.

I?m not sure if the cop just had a bad day or what, but personally I think he was out of line. The car behind me was much closer to me than I was to the officer, although that is no excuse. I personally don?t believe I was tailgating the officer. I believe he pulled me over either because I was on a shiny red motorcycle or because my light is bright as hell. It might have been blinding him and he might have just gotten pissed off. Either way I think the officer created a more dangerous situation than I did.

Why the hell am I doing all this to avoid a $105 fine? Because principles matter.
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
0
Originally posted by: iamwiz82
When they ask you how close you were, how fast you were going, ALWAYS SAY "I DONT KNOW!!" Thats very important, becuase you admitted guilt already.
Exactly do not admit to anything, if they ask you "Do you know how fast you were going" Come back with, "No Sir, I was watching the road" Also, about the recording, I don't know if the law is different for law enforcement, but I was under the impression that it was illegal to tape voice (audio) without a warrant?
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Quit the bitching and PAY THE FVCKING TICKET.

I'm soo tired of all this whining. OMFG, so you got a ticket. You knew you were going to get one and you did. so STFU.
Ennnnt! Wrong answer.

Traffic tickets should never be readily accepted unless you unequivocally admit guilt. Pragmatic traffic law is full of fine lines and gray areas so you should never willingly pay a ticket unless you truly believe you undeniably deserved it. If more people fought their tickets, cops would spend more time in the courthouses (they don't like that). Cops need to be taught that you ticket only the most grossly overt lawbreakers. Pulling somebody over for a 60 in a 55, for example, is LAME!!!
 
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