Union - Destroying American Business

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
No flame wars, but an intelligent debate over the whole union issie.

IMO, unions are going to continue hurting American business untill they are completely gone (not that it'll ever happen). I worked as a butcher for Vons (safeway) for 5 years during college. I was a member of the UFCW. I hated having to be a part of the union. Sure, the pay was better b/c the store was unionized, but it also killed 90% of the incentive to work harder. Promotions, time off, etc were based on seniority.... lazier workers than I were getting promotions b/c they had been there longer!

My father is a corporate VP of HR. He worked for a company for 25+ years and it was an amazing company b/c it treated all of the employees very very well. In 2001 his company was facing a worker strike b/c they weren't willing to increase the factory worker pay as much as they wanted (the line workers/floor sweepers were making 13-19/hr). The strike killed the company. They had to sell b/c of competition from China. The workers didnt care... they wanted their raise... what did it end up costing them? Their jobs, the new company fired them all and was willing to hire them back at 30% lower pay and no union.


IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.


Discuss.

Be honest, corporations drive to lower labor costs as far as they can. If they could they would pay their workers five cents a day. This is why they moved their factories from the north to the south and then offshore. You and your father are now competing with Chinese workers and the comfortable life you had when you were growing up is a thing of the past.

I work for a large multinational corporation for 18 years. During this time I have seen them move factories to Mexico, gut pensions, cut health care support and every other benefit that they were giving their employees.

When I was hired, it was the mindset that you worked for the company until you retired. There was a 3 to 4% turnover rate. Now it is typical for an employee to quit after 3 or 4 years and the company is having trouble hiring qualified people.

If the US worker does not have the unions they will use the court system.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
No flame wars, but an intelligent debate over the whole union issie.

IMO, unions are going to continue hurting American business untill they are completely gone (not that it'll ever happen). I worked as a butcher for Vons (safeway) for 5 years during college. I was a member of the UFCW. I hated having to be a part of the union. Sure, the pay was better b/c the store was unionized, but it also killed 90% of the incentive to work harder. Promotions, time off, etc were based on seniority.... lazier workers than I were getting promotions b/c they had been there longer!

My father is a corporate VP of HR. He worked for a company for 25+ years and it was an amazing company b/c it treated all of the employees very very well. In 2001 his company was facing a worker strike b/c they weren't willing to increase the factory worker pay as much as they wanted (the line workers/floor sweepers were making 13-19/hr). The strike killed the company. They had to sell b/c of competition from China. The workers didnt care... they wanted their raise... what did it end up costing them? Their jobs, the new company fired them all and was willing to hire them back at 30% lower pay and no union.


IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.


Discuss.

I couldn't agree more. Unions served their purpose many years ago, and got the workers the pay and treatment they deserved. Now, they are crossing the line. They have contributed greatly to the demise of GM and Ford, as well as the airline industry, among others. I'm not saying get rid of them, but rather some of their powers should be limited. Unions should NEVER be able to control a company.

They don't. Companies can go non Union if they choose.

 

[judasmachine]

While we're at it, lets kill all government regulation, so we can get children back in the factories for a few cents a day. I mean hell if that's what they pay the Indonesian kids to make clothes, why not pay American children the same?

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
While we're at it, lets kill all government regulation, so we can get children back in the factories for a few cents a day. I mean hell if that's what they pay the Indonesian kids to make clothes, why not pay American children the same?

There's more than a few people here that would be all for it.

Gives me a laugh how "certain people" are bitching about "all those Mexicans" coming over working for pennies yet when anyone dares complain about outlandish CEO/executive salaries/bonuses (some of which they got no doubt from hiring the cheap labor) they get all defensive ("well how DARE you complain you damn commie!").

 

[techs]

IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.
You sir are a complete idiot.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I wouldn't want to work as a skilled laborer in Construction and not belong to a Union. I've worked both sides of that fence and I can testify that non Union Construction Workers get the shaft big time. Their work isn't up to par with Union Workers either. I can also testify that if you are a Union Carpenter the Unions won't save your job if you are a Slacker.

I agree. I work in senior management of a full union company, and I can tell we are union by choice. We have tried the non union way and every time we lost money, had lots of problems, including the only OSHA violation in the history of the company. More often than not the unions will work with us to get the job done and work out compromises if needed.

Unions have their place in the workplace. The problem is some unions have become corrupt and the bosses greedy and they want more for themselves. Like any business there are good and bad examples of good and bad unions. I would like to see the good ones encouraged.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: eskimospy
The problem here is not that there are too many unions in the US, but that there aren't enough of them elsewhere. Because businesses have globalized and labor hasn't, labor is at a distinct disadvantage because there is always another country that businesses can go to and exploit their workers more cheaply.

Workers being exploited elsewhere doesn't mean that they should be exploited here, it means it should be stopped there. Unions are absolutely essential as a bulwark against corporate excesses. The funny thing here is that somehow the right has gotten people to blame the unions for this problem, not the people actually responsible for it.

What good would unions do in India or China? The reason why they have low wages is not because they don't have unions, but because they have huge amounts of poverty. I suppose that the Indian and Chinese governments could mandate higher wages for those people who are employed. Maybe you could say that the solution is for governments to mandate certain minimum wages for certain types of work?

Also, if laborers were free to move to any country in the world--if they had "globalization", it wouldn't change anything because the overwhelming majority of people in the world are poor. In other words--if you had a single global market for labor and capital, wages would still provide only a third world standard of living. The solution is for an increase the amount of capital and a decrease in world population.

Of course, the solution for the United States is trade protectionism and an end to mass immigration.

Are you even aware how strong and widespread unions are in India? Just like here, they have unions that are good and bad, as well as businesses that are good and bad.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: umbrella39
IMO unions had their time and place (in relation to the auto industry). The year 2007 is neither. Just look to SE Michigan to see how wonderfully unions have affected the Big 3.

You have got to be kidding me. The big 3 or little 3 hurt themselves by never changing to market trends as quickly as their Japanese competitors and becoming to used to the government ( tit ) contracts they received and the status quo.

There are so many reasons other then unions as to why the big 3 auto makers in the U.S. have been affectively diminished in their business market position.

Never mind though lets blame the Unions and then the Mexicans companies hire after they get rid of the unions. Let's never blame the companies themselves and their flawed leadership running around in suits who bail out with golden parachutes.

Obviously, the Big 3 have more problems than just how over-inflated the UAW was able to get their members payscales and benefits up to in the late 90's. I wasn't implying otherwise.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Craig234
This is why we need unions to go global.

Otherwise, competition among nations for the wealthy to invest forces them to reduce taxes and slash services, good for the rich and bad for the poor, while labor doesn't have any such competition paying them more, quite the opposite.

Only global agreements can prevent this economic imbalance.

It's a bit like how the theory of states regulating corporations goes out the window when Delaware gives the corporation a sweetheart deal, and most big corporations incorporate there.

Exactly, you've seen where I propose every single American job under Union.

Clean up starts at home.

The problem, Dave, is that nations are set to the workers competing, driving wages down; it's the same issue as when there aren't unions in the US and labor is a worker at a time, each worker having to take it or leave it, compared to when they're in a group to make demands; if a company can make China and Mexico and the US and Malaysia all at odds with one another, labor is cheap. If there were a global union, then they could raise wages. If the US unionizes more, that lacks the links to the other nations.

It worked fine to have national unions when the labor was not globalized.

The problem is, that global unions need the cooperation of governments, and the corporations are better able to set the government policies not to allow unions.

Who has more impact: the corporation saying 'play ball or you lose the money the factory brings', or the workers saying they want more money.

Just as worker safety laws or laws against child labor have to be national, because otherwise a few states could not have them and get competitive advantage, labor laws need to be global, because the US workers competing with impoverished slave labor in China is not good for US workers or Chinese workers. It's only good for the wealthy, both the owners and the Chinese government, who see the productivy for lower cost from their profits.

(In the US, the politicians tend not to profit personally, but to get elected they get great advantage from the backing of the wealthy).

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Of course...that assumes that education-requiring jobs are available and that there isn't a huge oversupply of qualified educated people to take those jobs. It isn't an absolute.

Something the junior capitalists just can't seem to grasp the concept of. Once there's a glut of educated workers, the salaries of those jobs will drop like a rock (in which case you'll have people like OP whining that all these "dirtbag elitist educated scum" are costing him "what's rightfully mine")

Oh, rest assured, our nation's politicians and pundits can't grasp it either. Their logic works like this. They notice that the middle class and upper middle class tend to have college educations. Therefore college education is a necessary condition of being solidly middle class or upper middle class or that it at least dramatically increases the chances. OK--but then they make a huge logical error. They go on to assume that college education is not merely necessary, but sufficient. Therefore, if everyone had a college degree we would no longer have anyone living below middle class status.

In reality, the economy as it's currently structured can only support a certain percentage of the populace at middle class levels, so the end result of everyone's having a bachelor's degree would be that a huge number of people with bachelor's degrees would end up being in the ranks of the lower classes. Our boneheaded politicians and pundits don't realize that spending money on education doesn't actually create solid jobs other than in the field of education. (Another fallacy is the notion that everyone will find jobs in the health care field--as though health services are a driver of the economy.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What we need to do is eliminate borders so ambitious people from anywhere in the world can go anywhere the can find work.

Can you say "Hello" to an America with a population of 1 billion people? Since the world has a popluation of about 6.6 billion and since most of them are impoverished, presumably hundreds of millions of them would flee to a United States without borders. Where will the land to provide for all of these people come from? Where will the clean fresh water come from? Where will the roads and open spaces for people come from? What will happen to the quality of life of current Americans?

Next we need to eliminate all professional standards that really are there to keep other people out, like licensing and educational requirements.

Patient: Hello doctor. I need to have heart surgery.

"Doctor": OK. Just lay down and I'll open you up. Let's see...heart...I think that's between your lungs.

Patient: What the? You don't know where the heart is?

"Doctor": Well, not really, I'm just starting out and need to practice my craft, but I did find this nifty medical certification in a box of cereal.

Might there be a reason why we have educational requirements and licensing for people in various professions? FYI--other than in the medical field where the government and the AMA regulate the number of doctors produced--licensing and education really don't "keep people out". In fact, we even have a large oversupply of MBAs and lawyers...and if you can't find a way to get into an ABA law school, then you shouldn't be wasting your time and money going to law school.

The education requirements don't keep people out of the market except for those who want to commit fraud.

Open every job to whoever in the world will do it the most efficiently. Millions of Chinese and Indians would work better and for far less at every job in America.

Resulting in a collapse of American wages and living standards, throwing hundreds of millions of Ameircans into Indian and Chinese-style third world poverty.

Get rid of corporate law and patents and all the other crap that is there to prevent others from using ideas and the world will change over night.

Resulting in the end of capital intensive research-and-development and also non-capital intensive innovation.

Americans will eventually learn to live on a bowl of rice and a living picking through trash.

And now we come to Moonbeam's real political agenda. The impoverishment of Americans and of people worldwide...unless of course...he was being facetious. I can't imagine he's really that stupid. If he is, then we can just write off all of his comments on these forums just like we write off Steeplerot's comments. If he really believes what he posted, then he's just like any other devoutly religious or communist wacko.

[EDIT] OMG. It looks like I'm the only one who pays any attention to Moonbeam's posts, so I've just fed the troll! I guess everyone else has already written him off as a buffoon judging from the lack of responses to his post.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Are you even aware how strong and widespread unions are in India? Just like here, they have unions that are good and bad, as well as businesses that are good and bad.

Actually, no. I had no idea until you posted it. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

 

[1EZduzit]

Unions are like lawyers, the only good one is mine.

 

[Moonbeam]

What is destroying American business and everything else in the world is self hate. Self hate is the origin of competition, the disease that infects the world pitting brother and sister against brother and sister. I am so sorry, but those of you who do deal with symptoms are psychologically shallow and miss the real issue.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I wouldn't want to work as a skilled laborer in Construction and not belong to a Union. I've worked both sides of that fence and I can testify that non Union Construction Workers get the shaft big time. Their work isn't up to par with Union Workers either. I can also testify that if you are a Union Carpenter the Unions won't save your job if you are a Slacker.

Skilled labor unions work slightly different than non skilled labor unions.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: umbrella39
IMO unions had their time and place (in relation to the auto industry). The year 2007 is neither. Just look to SE Michigan to see how wonderfully unions have affected the Big 3.

You have got to be kidding me. The big 3 or little 3 hurt themselves by never changing to market trends as quickly as their Japanese competitors and becoming to used to the government ( tit ) contracts they received and the status quo.

There are so many reasons other then unions as to why the big 3 auto makers in the U.S. have been affectively diminished in their business market position.

Never mind though lets blame the Unions and then the Mexicans companies hire after they get rid of the unions. Let's never blame the companies themselves and their flawed leadership running around in suits who bail out with golden parachutes.

Wrong, their contracts with the Unions have hurt them much more. Its mainly their medical plans and pensions that have royally fvcked them over. Sure the unions arent responsible for their loss of market share, but they are the cause for huge profit losses. Their cost is exponentially rising each year and $1.5-2billion a year.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I wouldn't want to work as a skilled laborer in Construction and not belong to a Union. I've worked both sides of that fence and I can testify that non Union Construction Workers get the shaft big time. Their work isn't up to par with Union Workers either. I can also testify that if you are a Union Carpenter the Unions won't save your job if you are a Slacker.

Skilled labor unions work slightly different than non skilled labor unions.

The OP didn't differentiate between the two in his ignorant rant.

 

[piasabird]

Unions do not hurt america more then management does. For a union to get a deal the Management has to agree to it. If management is stupid lame and lazy, then the Union takes over. This is mis-management. It takes two parties to make an agreement.

Seniority is the stupidest thing any union can come up with. It makes it hard for and fresh blood or innovation to save any company. I was in a union working for Winchester Western, a small arms manufacturer. When the company wanted to cut back they got rid of all of the up and coming low and middle management, and kept all of the old farts that were mis-managing the company. This is about the time I got layed off and decided to get into IT.

It is obvious to me that the company became stagnent because they retained the higher seniority management that mismanaged the company, and caused the problems to begin with. This is why seniority alone is not a good recipe for success.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: fallensight

Originally posted by: jdoggg12

Originally posted by: bfdd
I'm a Union Millwright from Southern California and I personally find your post to be a load of bullshit.

Good response. You typify the union worker with this response. I give reasons why i think unions are bad, you give this kind of response. Blind allegiance to the union is pretty stupid IMO.

I was working for the UFCW during the southern California strike, and i was rooting for the stores. They simply can't compete with the ridiculous wages they were paying to union... the union didnt care, they simply wanted more money... the union lacks the foresight to see that business cant afford them anymore. Thats why the strike lasted 6 months... the companies knew the union was being f-ing retarded.


I don't care if it pisses you off. Keep paying your dues. Keep making more than you should. As a consumer, i'll just move on to the cheaper alternative and let you contribute to the demise of your company and ultimately the loss of your job.

I am fimiliar with the strike you talk about there(and I live in NE). A few years back. Ralph's(owned by Kroger) is the exact company I was refering to earlier. I can tell you from first hand experiance, that the workers there would have been entirly in the right. Kroger in fact flew in labor from out of state to work the stores. They used primarily people from states with lower wages.

Some background on my views with the kroger co. They purchased the chain I work for in 2000. First thing they did was take away pay raises at store level, they now require corperate approval. When the scales rolled out shortly after, nearly every person was over the caps, in most cases by several dollars. Somehow before being bought our wages were deemed fair, and were in fact leading in the area. The new scales came down to be 'competitive with wal-mart", thier words.

Companies lie to the gov and anyone would would listen about how they make money. The men running the companies want billions for themselves and the stockholders. And they will lie and cheat to get there.

The buiseness claims they cant pay the wages for the regular workers. But they pay multi million dollar salries to the execs, AND turn multi billion dollar profits for the stock holders. Cant afford it my ass. It is pure greed.

By any chance is your degree a buisness degree?

Ummm? Point to me one grocery store that posts a over a $1billion in profits per year? This excludes Wal Mart. Kroger is #2 behind Wal Mart and its pulls less than a billion in profit per year. And thats off about $50billion in revenue. Grocery stores have some of the worst profit margins, and they also have extremely instense competition.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

OK I'll bite.

The issue brought up was that even our service based jobs are being outsourced overseas.

What's next?

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

OK I'll bite.

The issue brought up was that even our service based jobs are being outsourced overseas.

What's next?

Well like I said americans are stupid.

Yes there are some unfilled service jobs being out sourced, but thats because theres a huge shortage of educated labor in the US. And by HUGE, I mean HUGE shortage of educated labor.

Theres a reason why Indians are becoming a majority in Med School. Theres are reason why most engineering programs are dominated by asians. Academia is becoming dominated by foriegners. Sure right now most of academia is white, but if you look at most doctoral programs, the majority of people currently in them arent US born anymore.

MBA and JD programs are still most white/american because of the need for native english speakers. There have been a couple major law firms that outsourced some of their draft writing, and low level legal work to India. It ended up costing more in the long run because of language issues.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

I remember when the popular reason given for Japan kicking our butts was that the American workers were lazy. Now we're stupid as well?

I don't believe everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer and/or the ones that aren't that smart don't deserve to make a decent living. IMHO that kind of thinking is just a copout.

cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.

I personally think it's time for management to actually do something besides outsourcing jobs to EARN their keep. Are they patriotic Amercians or just coportate whores?

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

I remember when the popular reason given for Japan kicking our butts was that the American workers were lazy. Now we're stupid as well?

I don't believe everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer and/or the ones that aren't that smart don't deserve to make a decent living. IMHO that kind of thinking is just a copout.

cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.

I personally think it's time for management to actually do something besides outsourcing jobs to EARN their keep. Are they patriotic Amercians or just coportate whores?

Last I checked, there are plenty of medical related jobs avalible, that make $40k/year. 1-2 years of education. Plenty of other jobs as well.

I dont know what you are talking about, americans are lazy, but not as lazy as europeans(which is why they have almost double the unemployment rate). With a 35% national dropout rate for high school students, americans are stupid.

You people dont want a fair wage or even a living wage. Y'all want straight up socialism. I was making $32k/year in a fast food job. I was also a high school dropout. I am currently one year away from my BA and then Ill be in a MBA/JD program. Most americans especially those under 35 are lazy and stupid. A single person can live comfortably on $15k a year in most places. If you are stupid enough to breed and have kids when you dont have the education or the money, thats your fault. Not the company you work for. Not the government.

People in the US dont know what poverty is. Even the poor have $100 shoes, and ipods. If you want to make more money, its up to you to do it, not someone else.