Union - Destroying American Business

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

I remember when the popular reason given for Japan kicking our butts was that the American workers were lazy.

Now we're stupid as well?

I don't believe everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer and/or the ones that aren't that smart don't deserve to make a decent living. IMHO that kind of thinking is just a copout.

cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.

I personally think it's time for management to actually do something besides outsourcing jobs to EARN their keep. Are they patriotic Amercians or just coporate whores?

Well there you go American Sheeple. Republicans are now calling you STUPID.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

I remember when the popular reason given for Japan kicking our butts was that the American workers were lazy.

Now we're stupid as well?

I don't believe everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer and/or the ones that aren't that smart don't deserve to make a decent living. IMHO that kind of thinking is just a copout.

cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.

I personally think it's time for management to actually do something besides outsourcing jobs to EARN their keep. Are they patriotic Amercians or just coporate whores?

Well there you go American Sheeple. Republicans are now calling you STUPID.

Im not a republican. Sorry if you dont want to see what the problem with america is. But it IS education. And yes the vast majority of this country are both dumb and lazy, more so when it comes to my generation.

Stupidity is
You cant find a job that pays more than minimum wage.
You have four kids even though you know you can't afford them.
You get credit cards and rack up tens of thousands of debt and then dont pay them.
You bitch and moan about low wages, but wont personally do anything about it(bettering yourself).

What y'all want is socialism. You also dont want personal responsibility.

There are hundreds of thousands of people who year who come to the US each year with the dream of living the american life. Most of them manage to do it quite well.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

I remember when the popular reason given for Japan kicking our butts was that the American workers were lazy. Now we're stupid as well?

I don't believe everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer and/or the ones that aren't that smart don't deserve to make a decent living. IMHO that kind of thinking is just a copout.

cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.

I personally think it's time for management to actually do something besides outsourcing jobs to EARN their keep. Are they patriotic Amercians or just coportate whores?

Last I checked, there are plenty of medical related jobs avalible, that make $40k/year. 1-2 years of education. Plenty of other jobs as well.

I dont know what you are talking about, americans are lazy, but not as lazy as europeans(which is why they have almost double the unemployment rate). With a 35% national dropout rate for high school students, americans are stupid.

You people dont want a fair wage or even a living wage. Y'all want straight up socialism. I was making $32k/year in a fast food job. I was also a high school dropout. I am currently one year away from my BA and then Ill be in a MBA/JD program. Most americans especially those under 35 are lazy and stupid. A single person can live comfortably on $15k a year in most places. If you are stupid enough to breed and have kids when you dont have the education or the money, thats your fault. Not the company you work for. Not the government.

People in the US dont know what poverty is. Even the poor have $100 shoes, and ipods. If you want to make more money, its up to you to do it, not someone else.

I guess you don't remember the incident when a poor kid killed someone for his pair of Air Jordans? For a supposedly smart guy you sure have a convienent memory.

A ninth grader at Meade Senior High School in Anne Arundel County, Maryland, Thomas was found strangled on May 2, 1989. Charged with first degree murder was James David Martin, 17, a basketball buddy who allegedly took Thomas's two week old Air Jordan basketball shoes and left Thomas's barefoot body in the woods near school.

http://chucksconnection.com/articles/ConverseArt08.html

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening.

Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.

How are we not shootng for 100% now???

Dave what is your definition of service?

Because every single modern 1st world country, are post industrial societies. Maybe you want to roll the clock back 80 years and go back to an ag society.

Service industry is wide scoping.

Drs, lawyers, accountants, etc etc are all part of the service industry. You always try to make people believe that service is retail and resturant, when most college educated people are part of the service sector. The service sector is mostly made up of the exchange of information and knowledge, retail and resturants make up very little of the US service sector.

The US is a post industrial society. As are Britian, France, Germany, etc etc. The problem is education not wages or the lack of an industrial base. Quit trying to drag us back 50-75 years. There are plenty of high paying jobs out there, americans are just to stupid to fill them.

I remember when the popular reason given for Japan kicking our butts was that the American workers were lazy. Now we're stupid as well?

I don't believe everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer and/or the ones that aren't that smart don't deserve to make a decent living. IMHO that kind of thinking is just a copout.

cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.

I personally think it's time for management to actually do something besides outsourcing jobs to EARN their keep. Are they patriotic Amercians or just coportate whores?

Last I checked, there are plenty of medical related jobs avalible, that make $40k/year. 1-2 years of education. Plenty of other jobs as well.

I dont know what you are talking about, americans are lazy, but not as lazy as europeans(which is why they have almost double the unemployment rate). With a 35% national dropout rate for high school students, americans are stupid.

You people dont want a fair wage or even a living wage. Y'all want straight up socialism. I was making $32k/year in a fast food job. I was also a high school dropout. I am currently one year away from my BA and then Ill be in a MBA/JD program. Most americans especially those under 35 are lazy and stupid. A single person can live comfortably on $15k a year in most places. If you are stupid enough to breed and have kids when you dont have the education or the money, thats your fault. Not the company you work for. Not the government.

People in the US dont know what poverty is. Even the poor have $100 shoes, and ipods. If you want to make more money, its up to you to do it, not someone else.

I guess you don't remember the incident when a poor kid killed someone for his pair of Air Jordans? For a supposedly smart guy you sure have a convienent memory.

A ninth grader at Meade Senior High School in Anne Arundel County, Maryland, Thomas was found strangled on May 2, 1989. Charged with first degree murder was James David Martin, 17, a basketball buddy who allegedly took Thomas's two week old Air Jordan basketball shoes and left Thomas's barefoot body in the woods near school.

http://chucksconnection.com/articles/ConverseArt08.html

Go look at kids in school these days. I got news for you buddy, even the ones who are in poverty have nice clothes/shoes. Hell most have nicer things than i had when I was that age a 10-15 years ago. Cellphones, MP3 players, nice clothes, etc etc, Ive seen plenty of people in poverty have these items. You know those Christmas lists for the poor type things. Ive seen some that had requested Ipods. At the time I didnt even have an Ipod, and I was just disgusted by that list. That was consumerism at it's worst.

Oh and you just reminded me, I need to list another thing wrong with most americans. And that is their over consumption.

Stupdity
Laziness
Over Consumption

My generation have been fvcked over twice. One by the prior generations finanically ruining the US. Two by the poor role models we have had. All this stupidity, laziness, and over consumption started in the late 1960s and got much worse in the 1970s/80s. It's no wonder the generation after me is so fvcking stupid. They for the most part are close to retardation.

 

[1EZduzit]

Your opinion is just that.... YOUR OPINION. You havn't proven anything here, all you've done is make a buch of wild eyed accusations with nothing to back it up.

If your so anxious to point fingers, try pointing one at yourself. It seems to me you are suffering from 3 or 4 of the "Seven Deadly Sins" yourself.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Your opinion is just that.... YOUR OPINION. You havn't proven anything here, all you've done is make a buch of wild eyed accusations with nothing to back it up.

If your so anxious to point fingers, try pointing one at yourself. It seems to me you are suffering from 3 or 4 of the "Seven Deadly Sins" yourself.

I guess that makes three of us, because that is ALL you and Dave do day in a day out.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Your opinion is just that.... YOUR OPINION. You havn't proven anything here, all you've done is make a buch of wild eyed accusations with nothing to back it up.

If your so anxious to point fingers, try pointing one at yourself. It seems to me you are suffering from 3 or 4 of the "Seven Deadly Sins" yourself.

Which ones? Im curious.

Only one I can think of is lust.

Im not greedy. Im not a glutton or lazy like most americans. Im not an angry person, and Im not envious of others. You could say pride but I dont feel I am better than anyone else nor do I strive to be better than everyone else. Am I proud that after being a highschool dropout, I actually decided to make something of myself. That doesnt fall under Pride in the seven deadly sins.

I am also not stupid, lazy, and I dont fall into the over consumption category. I preach personal responsibility and the virtues of an education. Ive lived a rather different life and have much more in life experiances than those my age and some older.

 

[blackllotus]

Unions have been around for decades. Has anything about them changed recently that actually makes them a threat to our economic welfare?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: blackllotus
Unions have been around for decades.

Has anything about them changed recently that actually makes them a threat to our economic welfare?

Republicans

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Your opinion is just that.... YOUR OPINION. You havn't proven anything here, all you've done is make a buch of wild eyed accusations with nothing to back it up.

If your so anxious to point fingers, try pointing one at yourself. It seems to me you are suffering from 3 or 4 of the "Seven Deadly Sins" yourself.

Which ones? Im curious.

Only one I can think of is lust.

Im not greedy. Im not a glutton or lazy like most americans. Im not an angry person, and Im not envious of others. You could say pride but I dont feel I am better than anyone else nor do I strive to be better than everyone else. Am I proud that after being a highschool dropout, I actually decided to make something of myself. That doesnt fall under Pride in the seven deadly sins.

I am also not stupid, lazy, and I dont fall into the over consumption category. I preach personal responsibility and the virtues of an education. Ive lived a rather different life and have much more in life experiances than those my age and some older.

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

Originally posted by: Wreckem
Go look at kids in school these days. I got news for you buddy, even the ones who are in poverty have nice clothes/shoes. Hell most have nicer things than i had when I was that age a 10-15 years ago. Cellphones, MP3 players, nice clothes, etc etc, Ive seen plenty of people in poverty have these items. You know those Christmas lists for the poor type things. Ive seen some that had requested Ipods. At the time I didnt even have an Ipod, and I was just disgusted by that list. That was consumerism at it's worst.

I'd say you could definitly add envy to your list.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Your opinion is just that.... YOUR OPINION. You havn't proven anything here, all you've done is make a buch of wild eyed accusations with nothing to back it up.

If your so anxious to point fingers, try pointing one at yourself. It seems to me you are suffering from 3 or 4 of the "Seven Deadly Sins" yourself.

Which ones? Im curious.

Only one I can think of is lust.

Im not greedy. Im not a glutton or lazy like most americans. Im not an angry person, and Im not envious of others. You could say pride but I dont feel I am better than anyone else nor do I strive to be better than everyone else. Am I proud that after being a highschool dropout, I actually decided to make something of myself. That doesnt fall under Pride in the seven deadly sins.

I am also not stupid, lazy, and I dont fall into the over consumption category. I preach personal responsibility and the virtues of an education. Ive lived a rather different life and have much more in life experiances than those my age and some older.

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

Originally posted by: Wreckem
Go look at kids in school these days. I got news for you buddy, even the ones who are in poverty have nice clothes/shoes. Hell most have nicer things than i had when I was that age a 10-15 years ago. Cellphones, MP3 players, nice clothes, etc etc, Ive seen plenty of people in poverty have these items. You know those Christmas lists for the poor type things. Ive seen some that had requested Ipods. At the time I didnt even have an Ipod, and I was just disgusted by that list. That was consumerism at it's worst.

I'd say you could definitly add envy to your list.

Uh sorry buddy, READING COMPREHENSION for the win. I said go check high schools, even the poor had better clothes than I did when I was a kid. I'm not envious of that, I couldnt care less, I left highschool 10 years ago.

You brought up people killed of Air Jordans because I said even the poor had nice things these days. You so entirely missed my point. I suggest you go take a remedial reading class.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Your opinion is just that.... YOUR OPINION. You havn't proven anything here, all you've done is make a buch of wild eyed accusations with nothing to back it up.

If your so anxious to point fingers, try pointing one at yourself. It seems to me you are suffering from 3 or 4 of the "Seven Deadly Sins" yourself.

Which ones? Im curious.

Only one I can think of is lust.

Im not greedy. Im not a glutton or lazy like most americans. Im not an angry person, and Im not envious of others. You could say pride but I dont feel I am better than anyone else nor do I strive to be better than everyone else. Am I proud that after being a highschool dropout, I actually decided to make something of myself. That doesnt fall under Pride in the seven deadly sins.

I am also not stupid, lazy, and I dont fall into the over consumption category. I preach personal responsibility and the virtues of an education. Ive lived a rather different life and have much more in life experiances than those my age and some older.

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

Originally posted by: Wreckem
Go look at kids in school these days. I got news for you buddy, even the ones who are in poverty have nice clothes/shoes. Hell most have nicer things than i had when I was that age a 10-15 years ago. Cellphones, MP3 players, nice clothes, etc etc, Ive seen plenty of people in poverty have these items. You know those Christmas lists for the poor type things. Ive seen some that had requested Ipods. At the time I didnt even have an Ipod, and I was just disgusted by that list. That was consumerism at it's worst.

I'd say you could definitly add envy to your list.

Uh sorry buddy, READING COMPREHENSION for the win. I said go check high schools, even the poor had better clothes than I did when I was a kid. I'm not envious of that, I couldnt care less, I left highschool 10 years ago.

You brought up people killed of Air Jordans because I said even the poor had nice things these days. You so entirely missed my point. I suggest you go take a remedial reading class.

Funny that.

 

[tjaisv]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
Union - Destroying American Business

Your entire premise is faulty if you group all "American business" or all unions as single, opposing entities.

It's impossible to toss all businesses or all unions into single, opposing groups. As with people, in general, there are good and bad "American businesses," and their overall behavior with respect to civic and social responsiblity to their communities covers the spectrum from saintly to monstrous.

There are well known American businesses who have used their financial muscle to enrich their upper management at the expense of their salaried employees. There are those, such as some companies in energy and transportation, who have used their wealth to block environmental legislation. There are some, including some large pharmaceutical companies who have acted to maintain huge profits at the expense of the American public by impeding governmental evaluation and oversight of the safety of the products they sell and failing to compensate those who have been harmed thought their negligence or intentional behavior. Then, there are some, such as tobacco companies, who have enriched themselves through unconscionable behavior, selling deadly products that remain legal only because they have used their wealth to corrupt public officials from top to bottom. Add to that the large parasitic companies whose only function is to maximize their bottom line through acquisition, repackaging and disposing of other corporate assets, often through nothing more than "creative" accounting, with no regard for the effect of their actions on their employees or the public.

There are also plenty of examples of companies who flourish while practicing civil responsiblity and proactively marketing creative contributions to society.

The same is true thoughout the history of unions. There are plenty of examples of both good and bad behavior. The same power and resources of mass that enables them to do good can be abused in the same ways as coroporate power.

Conceptually, collective action through unionis is one of the few tools available to many working people to provide benefits to their membership, such as group health insurance, that may not be available through any other current business structure and to combat the wrongs done by malevolent employers.

There are also plenty of examples of businesses working with unions to create workplaces that benefit both executives and labor while ccreating products and delivering services that provide positive contributions to the larger society.

They're not all that way, but it's a better outlook and goal than assuming that "business" and "labor" must be in opposition to each other.

Well said.

The gap between business and labor is growing though...and not positively.

 

[LegendKiller]

My questions to any anti-union person are...


1. Have you ever worked in a union environment?

2. Have any of your family members been a part of a union?


Those are important because I used to work at the USPS in a union environment and my brother, mother, and father are/were union employees. I have seen the best and worst of unions, I have seen how companies try to steal pensions or under fund them to meet earnings. I have also seen drunk workers driving forklifts because they hardly ever get in trouble. I have also seen abusive management try to vengefully fire power only to be stopped by unions who actually knew that the worker was a good one, just the manager was crap.

Unions encourage apathy but also protect against abuses. There are pluses and minuses to them.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12

Originally posted by: Tom
unions aren't responsible for lazy workers. Bad management is.

It's also unlikely that "the strike" killed your Father's company. What is likely is you heard one side of an argument, you obviously don't think much of the workers. (floor sweepers ?)

Sounds more likely the previous owners wanted to cash out, and the new owners are part of the breed of management that equates slave labor with money in their pocket. A short sided policy that doesn't lead anywhere.

Yes, the strike DID kill the company. Their biggest disadvantage when faced with the competition from china was labor cost. They were paying well above market value for their employees as it was. The industry as a whole (vegetable dehydration) is facing stiff global competition and American labor is very expensive.

And yes, floor sweepers. I did an internship at the company as a production supervisor and there were employees who's sole role was to sweep the fllors of spilt product. They made 14.50/hr.

It was a private company and the owners were very proud of their company. They most certainly did not want to sell it, but it was either sell or go bankrupt. They had plants in the US, Mexico, Spain, and a couple others in europe...

the US plants were 1.5-2.5x as expensive as any other of their plants, but were necessary for availability of the plants

Interesting choice of word - "neccessary".

So what is your idea of wage for American worker to compete with China?

$2.96hr? That is what workers in China get paid, should that apply here in the States as well?

Will you be happy then?

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
No flame wars, but an intelligent debate over the whole union issie.

IMO, unions are going to continue hurting American business untill they are completely gone (not that it'll ever happen). I worked as a butcher for Vons (safeway) for 5 years during college. I was a member of the UFCW. I hated having to be a part of the union. Sure, the pay was better b/c the store was unionized, but it also killed 90% of the incentive to work harder. Promotions, time off, etc were based on seniority.... lazier workers than I were getting promotions b/c they had been there longer!

My father is a corporate VP of HR. He worked for a company for 25+ years and it was an amazing company b/c it treated all of the employees very very well. In 2001 his company was facing a worker strike b/c they weren't willing to increase the factory worker pay as much as they wanted (the line workers/floor sweepers were making 13-19/hr). The strike killed the company. They had to sell b/c of competition from China. The workers didnt care... they wanted their raise... what did it end up costing them? Their jobs, the new company fired them all and was willing to hire them back at 30% lower pay and no union.


IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.


Discuss.

that company is probably the exception not the rule.
There are a lot of employers who don't have any problem treating workers like crap.
this is why unions came into exsistance and why they continue.
I hope your picture of a happy worker is not the chinese laborer?

 

[Mxylplyx]

Unions and global labor markets dont work. We just price ourselves out of the market. I as a software engineer think it truly sucks that I'm competing in a marketplace with Indians who will work for a fraction of what I make, willing to live a lifestyle that we would consider poverty, and considering themselves lucky for it. From a global perspective, this is good because it is raising the world out of poverty. From a personal perspective, it's very unsettling. Global wage arbitrage is a bitch, but there is no way to stop it. Any attempt to intervene will just suffer a backlash.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
No flame wars, but an intelligent debate over the whole union issie.

IMO, unions are going to continue hurting American business untill they are completely gone (not that it'll ever happen). I worked as a butcher for Vons (safeway) for 5 years during college. I was a member of the UFCW. I hated having to be a part of the union. Sure, the pay was better b/c the store was unionized, but it also killed 90% of the incentive to work harder. Promotions, time off, etc were based on seniority.... lazier workers than I were getting promotions b/c they had been there longer!

My father is a corporate VP of HR. He worked for a company for 25+ years and it was an amazing company b/c it treated all of the employees very very well. In 2001 his company was facing a worker strike b/c they weren't willing to increase the factory worker pay as much as they wanted (the line workers/floor sweepers were making 13-19/hr). The strike killed the company. They had to sell b/c of competition from China. The workers didnt care... they wanted their raise... what did it end up costing them? Their jobs, the new company fired them all and was willing to hire them back at 30% lower pay and no union.


IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.


Discuss.

I have no sympathy for Unions in general (nor antipathy) but the strike DID NOT kill your father's company. Nor unions killed the big 3.

Macroeconomic trends and failure to adjust did it. Free trade operates in a way so that some sectors will just not be sustainable in developed countries. That's the way it is. There has been a time (not long ago... 150 years ago) when the US were a developing country like China is today. Us exports outpriced european domestic production (cotton, tobacco) and people in europe bitched all the time about the unfair competition from US plantations (using slaves! the ultimate cheap labor...).

You cannot stop these macro cycles. What you can do is DIVERSIFY away from sectors more likely to be hit by foreign competition. High-tech. Design. High value-added products for which cheap labor is not a critical component. Sure China produces a lot of textiles, now how come Giorgio Armani is not worried? Because he knows nobody in China will ever be able to produce what he produces. And because of this he can afford super-expensive labor.

I can assure you that unions are by far more influential in the European car industry than in the US one. And when I say by far I mean seriously BY FAR. Virtually impossible to fire people.

Then how come Porsche, BMW, Daimler or VW are all thriving? When Italian carmaker Fiat signed a stock exchange with GM in 2001 (with a prospect of merger) their stock was worth 35 euros. It went down to 4.5 euros before they announced to break the deal and announced they were not looking anymore into the merger possibility. Since then Fiat stock raised from 4.5 euros to almost 20 in less than 18 months.

The car industry in the US sucks, and sucks for lack of creativity, good taste and sound management. The mistakes the big three have done in the past decade are so many you could fill a whole MBA program just by studying those.

But hey, it's so much easier to blame cheap labor from Asia. Are BMW made in China? Volkswagen? Volvo?

It's very easy: if you produce a better product, and your financial management is sound, no foreign competition or unionized labor will ever put you out of the market.

 

[piasabird]

Unions do not paralize anything. Unions get more because stupid idiots in management gave them more. This is a management problem. Management mismanages their company and then they want to blame it on the unions. It takes two parties to make a contract!