Originally posted by: nitromullet
Where did I say " I think it can be doing something good. "?
So, umm... you don't think Driver Cleaner does any good...? You just suggest and use it for no apparent reason?
My so called "angst" is not against DC, my issue is with how so many people will recommend its usage based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence.
I actually checked out the DC forums way before you ever posted your link. This whole acceptance of DC hook, line, and sinker by this and other tech boards has sort of intrigued me for a while now, so I have no qualms with doing a little 'research'. The link you posted is only one topic in the forum, and it appears to be a "praise DC" thread. If you actually go to the main DC forum page you will notice that there are a number of DC help request threads as well, so it looks like there a few people that like DC and some that have issues with it.
Originally posted by: nitromullet
You do *think* that it does some good... I say "think" because I don't really believe that you *know* it works. You said yourself that the only time you used it was when switching from ATI-to-NV or vice versa as a precautionary measure. You have also indicated that DC removed files that "can cause problems" (your exact words). No where have you indicated that you personally have first hand experience with DC fixing a driver issue, nor have you indicated that you have a true understanding of how or why these files could cause problems. Based on that I would say it is fair to say that you "think" DC is useful, but I don't feel that you have established yourself as an authority on the subject enough to say beyond a shadow of a doubt that DC is a useful product.
On the point of me reading their forums... I have looked over their forum quite a bit, and as expected there are probably more posts about problems with the software and general questions that there is anything else. I do like how you cherry picked the one "DriverCleaner / Vista - awesome software" thread. Well, can cherry pick too... They banned this guy because he got pissed about the software not functioning properly.
http://www.driverheaven.net/dr...handled-exception.html
Don't get me wrong, the guy was out of line... My point is not get into a cherry picking war, but that forum threads should be taken with a grain of salt. This is why I chalk most of them up to hearsay unless the author provides some factual data to back up their claim(s) or otherwise has reputable credentials...
Edit: Just to be clear, I don't consider myself an authority on the subject either. I'm not really sure if DC helps with video performance or not. However, I have used it before and I personally have never been successful resolving any issues by using Driver Cleaner. The vast majority of driver issues that I've ever had were only resolved when a new driver was released that addressed that specific issue.
Originally posted by: bryanW1995
I think that we all pay for driver updates. Think about it, does anybody know how many full time software devs nvidia or AMD employ just to keep drivers updated? A few of us might guess "none", but realistically, they are spending many millions of dollars per year on them. It's a cost of doing business, and just like all their other costs, they must pass it on to their customer or risk going out of business.Originally posted by: cmdrdredd
Originally posted by: nitromullet
I don't remember the last time I paid for driver updates, do you?
The last time you bought a video card you paid for driver updates. Drivers are released with known bugs in them in order to get the product out the door. We accept this trade off because we want to be able to buy the product in a reasonable amount of time. However, we still expect and demand ongoing development and fixes to the drivers, and hardware manufacturers know this and add it to the cost of the item. Ongoing driver support for a product is part of the way this business model works, and you can bet we as consumers aren't getting updates for 'free'.
While it's true we're stuck using third-party solutions to compensate for the shortcoming of poorly designed software, expecting the software that you paid for to actually work the way it's supposed to hardly constitutes laziness.
What is your basis for your claim? There is simply no evidence that supports the claim that after un-installation either current ATI or NVIDIA drivers leave behind some 'remnants' that adversely affect the performance of your PC, and certainly nothing to support the notion that running Driver Cleaner would fix this issue if it existed.
So you think that Nvidia charged people $450 for a 8800GTS at release because they knew it would take a year for a working driver in Vista? Seriously!? That's what you said above. " hardware manufacturers know this and add it to the cost of the item. " Think about this for a minute. In most cases drivers are tested on clean systems with fresh windows installs without hundreds of random drivers and leftovers installed. It is not uncommon for users to have issues with drivers once it's all installed on their system. They can never account for random drivers that conflict and new games that are released 9+ months after a card's release. That reason, and that reason alone, is why there are driver updates. They want their prodct to function for their users. No manufacturer really wants their hardware to never work properly. Sometimes the team working on the driver just isn't good at getting things done. Typically there is a hardware team and then a driver team. You can never really blame the hardware side when the issue is n the software which comes from a seperate team. Like I said, sometimes the team can't get it right...I dare you to write a driver and see if your un-installer works.
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: ronnn
pretty easy to see. Run driver cleaner in normal mode and see what it finds and delete. Some files are still there. Run it in safe mode and those files are deleted for good, but registry entries do remain behind. I do think it has helped with stability issues, but can't prove it.
Sure, it's pretty easy to see, but what are you actually seeing that would indicate that DC is helping your video card perform?
In normal mode the driver files are in use, so they can not be deleted. When you boot into safe mode Windows loads some basic VGA drivers that it ships with (that's what your display is low res and 16-bit color), so the NV/ATI driver files can be erased. You can erase them yourself if you want to in safe mode, and you would be doing the same thing as DC. That however, doesn't really answer the question of whether deleting these files has any (positive) affect on system performance.
So does this mean that you do agree that DC "does" do something? The (positive) effect is when it removes file that can cause (negative) effects. Something that you said we can go in and delete ourselves. I really don't know how, or why, you picked this particular battle.
You should think about starting a poll and ask if when people ran into problems, such as poorer than usual performance when updating drivers, or switching from ATI to NV or reversed, did they have good results, worse results, or unchanged when using driver cleaner.
I can count on one hand the times I used DC, and that was when I went from an Nvidia card to an ATI card, and also when I went from an ATI card to an Nvidia card. I didn't have any performance problems because I didn't give myself a chance to have them. I ran DC right from the start before switching cards. I saw plenty of files removed on both counts. Files that were found after the uninstallers were run.
This link is to DH, where the creator of DC "lives".
Link
There are pretty extensive discussions about DC there. Maybe you should check them out if you are seeking proof of DC's right to exist. You use Vista don't you? If so, this is right up your alley.
Keys, at the end of all this I don't really care if you want to keep on recommending DC because you *think* it could be doing some good, and if others want to give the DC folks $10 based on your recommendation... My concern is that there seems to be a lot of people that buy the claims that this thing is actually doing some good just based on hearsay and the "better safe than sorry" concept. It is a bit disappointing to me the see such a lack of critical thinking and analysis on a tech forum.
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
You're hopeless Nitro. As soon as I saw the words "Cherry picked" come out of your fingers, I turned you off. All I did was google "Driver Cleaner issues" and linked to the first discussion I found. Think about what you just said. "Cherry picked". Why on earth would I?
We're finished here I guess.
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
You're hopeless Nitro. As soon as I saw the words "Cherry picked" come out of your fingers, I turned you off. All I did was google "Driver Cleaner issues" and linked to the first discussion I found. Think about what you just said. "Cherry picked". Why on earth would I?
We're finished here I guess.
really...?
http://www.google.com/search?h...ner+issues&btnG=Search
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
You're hopeless Nitro. As soon as I saw the words "Cherry picked" come out of your fingers, I turned you off. All I did was google "Driver Cleaner issues" and linked to the first discussion I found. Think about what you just said. "Cherry picked". Why on earth would I?
We're finished here I guess.
really...?
http://www.google.com/search?h...ner+issues&btnG=Search
Yes.. really. You yourself quoted a "problem only" from the discussion I linked to.
You'll see what you want to see. I get it now.
/peace.
Originally posted by: rbV5
I've installed my fair share of graphic drivers over the years on a variety of platforms. My personal experience is that driver cleaner utilities are for the most part simply unnecessary for a routine driver change, nor was it recommended for testing ATI drivers by their software engineers (unless something has changed in the past year or so that I've been basically inactive driver testing...doubt it)
I have used driver cleaner in the past a couple times, and it did appear to clear up a couple fubured installations that "may" have ultimately resulted in the dreaded OS re-installation....maybe. I've also fubured an OS removing nvidia chipset drivers with driver cleaner, so it's not without consequences (although chipset drivers are not graphic card drivers)
Thank you for getting this thread back on topic. I know that you have more extensive experience with drivers than most, especially with ATI drivers. Interesting perspective that DC might have also actually contributed or created driver problems on it's own (although chipset drivers). I still think we're kind of at square one with this though. Based on your experiences, It seems that DC might help, it might not help, and it might even cause problems sometimes.
you need a better job. I think I can make $11 in 20 minOriginally posted by: ronnn
i paid for driver cleaner, as am sure it has helped, but mainly to support dh - as the gang there can be very helpful. And they run specialty forums for specialty drivers that are an interest to some. Their reviews tend to be sales orientated and often biased, but can't have everything. Still after paying $10, I am quite broke and will have to work another 20 minutes or so.
Well actually I make $12 and change, but who's counting. :laugh: Is why I like unions.....Originally posted by: bryanW1995
you need a better job. I think I can make $11 in 20 minOriginally posted by: ronnn
i paid for driver cleaner, as am sure it has helped, but mainly to support dh - as the gang there can be very helpful. And they run specialty forums for specialty drivers that are an interest to some. Their reviews tend to be sales orientated and often biased, but can't have everything. Still after paying $10, I am quite broke and will have to work another 20 minutes or so.