Virtual currencies recovering!

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Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106

Yes, you made 4 points. NONE of those 4 points have anything to do with bitcoin being a failure of a currency. Quit trying to create a straw man argument. Here, I'll do the same thing:

1. My dog is sitting on my lap, this is a fact.

2. I am typing a response for no good reason, because the person I am communicating with just wants to argue instead of actually proving a useful point.

3. I am paying my bills with $1000 I according to you I bartered for with bitcoin. It's so sad that I'm using a fake currency to pay my real bills.

4. Nobody with any intelligence actually saves USD as a form of savings, beyond the smallest level of spending money, which completely negates your 4th point. A savings account making less than inflation in interest does not make a wise choice for saving money.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
Quoting 'The Matrix', a story written by two brothers, one of whom is now a sister. Boo ya...
 

Eureka

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
3,822
1
81
This guy is a die-hard BTC believer. He's been at it for years... he's not going to change his tune.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
It's a quote from the Matrix.

However,




You really don't even get it, do you? Look up QE3. Read about it. Educate yourself.

Every month the fed CREATES 40 billion dollars out of thin air, and LENDS it to banks by buying up some mortgages. Do you understand that a mortgage is a form of debt? Do you understand that in order for the 40 billion to ever be paid off, the debt needs to be paid in full? Now realize that this has been going on for awhile. And in addition to buying debt, the US government has it's own debt itself, in the form of the deficit. Add up all the money in circulation, and subtract the total debt, and you come up with a negative number. The whole system is unsustainable, the debt will never be paid, eventually it's going to collapse on itself.

LOL, you don't get it, do you?

The Fed doesn't "lend" the banks anything, you said it yourself, they buy it. do you realize that the $40bn is really not all that much in the grand scheme of everything? Further, do you realize that all of those MBS will be paid off in ~10-15 yrs, if not sooner? Do you realize that there's something like $14tr in mortgages in this country alone and, even if QE continued for the next 5 years that'd only total $2.5tr, not even 1/5th the entire mortgage market?

It's laughable you think that taking all liabilities for the next 10-15 years and adding them up and subtracting the current monetary base means anything at all. YOU don't have a fucking clue what you are even talking about.

You somehow think that the money just goes from A to B yet you forget that it also goes to C,D,E,F,G.....AA, AB...ZA, ZB.....forever.

Person A owes Person B $100
Person B owes person C $100
Person C owes person A $100

There's $300 worth of debt but only $100 worth of currency, person A pays person B back while person B pays person C back. Person C pays person A back. The net effect is 0. Yet your silly measurement is that the monetary base cannot possibly pay back the money because $100 - $300 = -$200.

Who gives a fuck about -$200, it's immaterial.

Then people like you prattle on about interest and how you have to have an inflating money supply to pay interest. Do you expect the money supply to stay static and for the same amount of currency to represent the value of all of the goods on the planet as they are mined and/or labored? Of course you do, that's why you buy into Bitcoins, however, you cannot fathom how deflationary that is.

Even excluding that, we aren't counting the fact that, despite there being only a net $100 in money supply with those 3 guys that each one is still earning their own wage that doesn't include debt which pays the interest. Thus the $100 is an artificial constraint placed upon the world by people like you to prove some inane, insane, and utterly illogical point.
 
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Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
Yes, you made 4 points. NONE of those 4 points have anything to do with bitcoin being a failure of a currency. Quit trying to create a straw man argument.

Simply saying "X=Y" doesn't make it so.

You argued that because some merchants accept bitcoin, it's a currency. I pointed out that the businesses accepting bitcoin are not in any way actually treating it as a currency. You responded with a patently ridiculous non-sequitur equating paying for international purchases in the currency of the country in which the sale occurs with immediate conversion of bartered items into currency.

Your argument that bitcoin is a currency because merchants accept it is grossly flawed and I've succinctly pointed out why. If you choose to believe otherwise, that's fine; the accuracy of my statements does not depend on your beliefs.

Cheers,

ZV
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Simply saying "X=Y" doesn't make it so.

You argued that because some merchants accept bitcoin, it's a currency. I pointed out that the businesses accepting bitcoin are not in any way actually treating it as a currency. You responded with a patently ridiculous non-sequitur


You forgot the part where the actual definition of a currency is a device used for bartering.

Here you go: I will admit you are correct, when using your made-up definition of currency, that bitcoin is not a currency. However, based on the actual definition of a currency as defined by ANY dictionary or authoritative source, bitcoin is indeed a currency.

It's impossible to discuss anything with you when your definitions of things don't match the definitions used by the rest of the world.
 
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Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
LOL, you don't get it, do you?

The Fed doesn't "lend" the banks anything

Lets see what the Fed has to say about that...

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/banking_12841.htm

The Federal Reserve lends to banks and other depository institutions--so-called "discount window lending"--to address temporary problems they may have in obtaining funding.

When you are wrong, you are wrong. And you are wrong. Go away now and bother someone else.
 

jaedaliu

Platinum Member
Feb 25, 2005
2,670
1
81
Chiropterean, I've got a question for you. When you get your paycheck, are you converting it all to bitcoin, then cashing them out to buy your groceries and pay your rent? Because that's what it seems like you're telling us we should do.

USD will be worthless. Buy bitcoin when it's still low. By the end of the year bitcoin should be what, $500/share, and $5000/share at the end of 2014? Holy cow, $50,000/share by the end of 2015. I should buy $20,000 worth now, and retire in 2 years.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Chiropterean, I've got a question for you. When you get your paycheck, are you converting it all to bitcoin, then cashing them out to buy your groceries and pay your rent? Because that's what it seems like you're telling us we should do.

USD will be worthless. Buy bitcoin when it's still low. By the end of the year bitcoin should be what, $500/share, and $5000/share at the end of 2014? Holy cow, $50,000/share by the end of 2015.

Please show me where I ever said that?

I don't think I have ever claimed that bitcoin has already reached prime time. I'm perfectly clear in my stance that it will take time, maybe three-four years, maybe 10 or more, before bitcoin is fully usable for everything.

I'm not converting my paycheck to Iraqi dinar either, even though I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a currency. My point is that bitcoin is a currency, it fits the definition, it works, and it has some great features that will allow it to really take off- in time.

I don't care if you invest or don't invest in bitcoin, it's not my loss if you miss out. I'm simply responding to the lies and slander.


>I should buy $20,000 worth now, and retire in 2 years.

I know you are trying to be factitious, but if you bought $20,000 worth of bitcoin a year ago ($5 per btc), you could sell it today for $620,000. Maybe not enough to retire on, but you could certainly buy a nice house outright and save a ton of money you would otherwise be spending on rent or mortgage.

If you bought $20,000 bitcoin two years ago ($1.5 per btc), you could sell it today for a bit over $2 million. I guess you could retire on that, if you had humble expectations.
 
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jaedaliu

Platinum Member
Feb 25, 2005
2,670
1
81
Please show me where I ever said that?

I don't think I have ever claimed that bitcoin has already reached prime time. I'm perfectly clear in my stance that it will take time, maybe three-four years, maybe 10 or more, before bitcoin is fully usable for everything.

I'm not converting my paycheck to Iraqi dinar either, even though I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a currency. My point is that bitcoin is a currency, it fits the definition, it works, and it has some great features that will allow it to really take off- in time.

I don't care if you invest or don't invest in bitcoin, it's not my loss if you miss out. I'm simply responding to the lies and slander.

Maybe it was someone else that said that bitcoin value growth is consistent and 10x each year. And that the USD is going to be worthless soon in the face of bitcoin.

I'll figure out who it was later and get investment strategies from them. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how to buy and sell bitcoins. The Magic the Gathering exchange website's crapping out on me when I try to sign up on it.

edit: and in response to your edit, I'm only kind of joking. If bitcoin does grow 10x each year for the next 2 years, $2 million is enough for me to retire on. I'm not an extravagant man. I'd invest in tax-free bonds and live comfortably.
 
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Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Maybe it was someone else that said that bitcoin value growth is consistent and 10x each year. And that the USD is going to be worthless soon in the face of bitcoin.

Oh I have said that. And it has held true thus far. I'm not guaranteeing that it will continue, but up until this point it has held true. Growth may slow or speed up depending on the rate of adoption. And bitcoin might fail. I think it's exceedingly small chance, but it exists, so I wouldn't bet absolutely everything on it. But I don't need to, since the kind of growth it has seen so far means even a small early investment will be worth a lot in 10 years.

However, it's important to note that while I think bitcoin might fail, it's not for the ridiculous reasons presented in this forum. Being deflationary, the current volatility, it's status as as a currency when used with bitpay- those are non-issues, and don't even remotely threaten bitcoin.

But even though I am confident value will continue to go up, and confident eventually bitcoin will be widely accepted, it isn't yet. My day to day and monthly expenses mostly need to be paid in USD.

Although, technically I am putting about all of my extra money into bitcoin eventually, because I don't save any USD directly, rather pay down my mortgage and car debt first.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,233
32,650
136
Realtor, 2000: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2001: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2002: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2003: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2004: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2005: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2006: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2007: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2008: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2009: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2010: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2011: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2012: "There is no better time to buy."
Realtor, 2013: "There is no better time to buy."
...
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Lets see what the Fed has to say about that...

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/banking_12841.htm

The Federal Reserve lends to banks and other depository institutions--so-called "discount window lending"--to address temporary problems they may have in obtaining funding.

When you are wrong, you are wrong. And you are wrong. Go away now and bother someone else.

You were the one who said that the Fed was lending them money through QE by "buying up some mortgages". You said absolutely NOTHING about the window. You are conflating two concepts, not unsurprising considering your apparent level of education in finance (YouTube.edu). Alas, this what most Bitcoin-ish people revert to.

You were wrong and I am glad you can admit it. You are the one who is a fool and fails to address anything in my post which refutes some of your most foolish "points", instead resorting to some silly tangential false strawman that utterly failed. That's because you cannot fathom real finance, of which I have probably forgotten more than you'll ever know.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
So.... I'd like to buy some litecoins (LTC) for shits and giggles, but I can't seem to find out where to actually purchase them for the "market value" Ebay it looks like you can get a few here and there, no bulk, for around $6+. Market value is apparently like $4.10 right now. Same thing with THIS site.

Is the best way to get coins to just mine them yourself? How do I unload them if there's no where for anyone to buy them? The true market value appears to be above what is official because of the scarce places to buy them....
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
If I accepted bitcoins and someone paid me with them today at 16:00 UTC, and then I went to spend them at 20:00 UTC, I'd have lost 17.5% of my money.

In four hours.

Yeah, that's one heck of a currency.

If I bought some USD with bitcoin in January, and decided to spend those USD to buy back into bitcoin, I'd have found that the dollars lost 90% of their value.

So.... I'd like to buy some litecoins (LTC) for shits and giggles, but I can't seem to find out where to actually purchase them for the "market value"

Is the best way to get coins to just mine them yourself? How do I unload them if there's no where for anyone to buy them? The true market value appears to be above what is official because of the scarce places to buy them....

Don't confuse litecoins and bitcoins. The market for bitcoins is just now coming around to become usable for "regular" people. Litecoin is years away at best. I'm not sure if there is really room for more than one major cryptocurrency in the long run, I wouldn't keep a lot of my money in litecoin.
 
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Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
You were the one who said that the Fed was lending them money through QE by "buying up some mortgages".

Yes I said that. Then you absurdly stated that the fed doesn't lend ANY money to banks, which is provably false. I'm not going to bother arguing with you, since you have already tried to pass off a lie as the truth.
 

jaedaliu

Platinum Member
Feb 25, 2005
2,670
1
81
If I bought some USD with bitcoin in January, and decided to spend those USD to buy back into bitcoin, I'd have found that the dollars lost 90% of their value.

I think that was his point. BTC is crazy volatile. Do that with other currencies (USD vs Euro or Yen or CHF or NT or RUB or whatever,) and it won't fluctuate like that.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
If I bought some USD with bitcoin in January, and decided to spend those USD to buy back into bitcoin, I'd have found that the dollars lost 90% of their value.

[citation needed]

EDIT: Oh wait, are you trying to pin Bitcoin's volatility on the US dollar? Because I'm pretty sure the US dollar has not lost 90% of its value in 3 months.

 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
If I bought some USD with bitcoin in January, and decided to spend those USD to buy back into bitcoin, I'd have found that the dollars lost 90% of their value.

Utter idiocy.

I'm really going to enjoy watching this particular bubble pop.
 
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Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
I think that was his point. BTC is crazy volatile. Do that with other currencies (USD vs Euro or Yen or CHF or NT or RUB or whatever,) and it won't fluctuate like that.

Yes I know, he keeps repeating this over and over and I keep telling him it is irrelevant. I'm not sure why he doesn't understand.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
Yes I know, he keeps repeating this over and over and I keep telling him it is irrelevant. I'm not sure why he doesn't understand.

How is extreme volatility irrelevant? It's so volatile that most people won't risk touching bitcoins, and those who do can only use it as a temporary currency that is immediately converted back into their standard currency as soon as possible. Except for those few who try to play it like the stock market.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
How is extreme volatility irrelevant? It's so volatile that most people won't risk touching bitcoins, and those who do can only use it as a temporary currency that is immediately converted back into their standard currency as soon as possible. Except for those few who try to play it like the stock market.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, even though I have already answered this question many times.

It's irrelevant because the drawbacks of the volatility are already accounted for, and DESPITE the volatility bitcoin is still incredibly successful, showing 1000% growth per year or more.

It's also irrelevant because one major use of bitcoin is money transfer. It doesn't matter if the value changes by the hour, because you can complete your transaction instantly and as far as you can tell you instantly receive your fiat money of choice, through bitpay or a similar service. You can use bitcoin as a money transfer device (like paypal) without ever holding any of it, if you want.

It's also irrelevant because it's a necessary evil. A few years ago a bitcoin was worth $.01, one year ago a bitcoin was worth $10, today a bitcoin is worth $135. You can't have growth like that without volatility, it's impossible. You also can't have a stable currency until after the growth is done. Current market cap like 1.5 billion. A corporation or wealthy individual could create a huge amount of volatility at will, by buying 2 billion worth of bitcoin at once, for example. The currency needs to grow large enough that such manipulation is harder.

The very existence of volatility is why bitcoin is so exciting now. When bitcoin isn't volatile anymore, it's finished growing. If you want to wait until it is stable go ahead, but it'll be just like waiting until Apple is already at $600 per share. You aren't going to see huge gains like you see now. Yeah, buy high and sell low, that is what this Charles Kozierok guy thinks is a smart strategy.

Bitcoin will be stable when it reaches it's near-maximum value. There will still be some increase in value due to the general output of the world economy increasing with time, but not as dramatic as it is today. Do you really want to wait until then before getting involved?
 
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