Virtual currencies recovering!

[Chiropteran]

Because inflation is good for the economy whereas planned deflation isn't.

Just shows how blinded you are by the lies told by Fed paid economists.

Bitcoin isn't even deflationary, technically. Bitcoin are being produced at a regular rate through mining, and will continue to be produced until 2140.

The fact that bitcoin seems to be deflationary simply shows just how much inflation people are used to, such that something that actually holds it's value over time appears to be deflationary to those ignorant of the facts.

A deflationary currency HAS NEVER ACTUALLY BEEN TESTED. All these theories about how it will fail are based on the lies told by economists who are paid to justify our current inflationary currency. There has never been a real world example of a true deflationary currency.

 

[Rakehellion]

Accepting bitcoin is about as risky as accepting paypal, except you can't be scammed by charge backs, you pay less fees, and you don't need to worry about paypal holding your money for any reason.

And the aforementioned are services offered by PayPal that buyers appreciate.

But you're kind of proving the point that:
Bitcoin isn't a currency.
PayPal isn't a currency.
Credit card isn't a currency.
Cash isn't a currency.

These are payment methods.

 

[Rakehellion]

Just shows how blinded you are by the lies told by Fed paid economists.

Bitcoin isn't even deflationary, technically. Bitcoin are being produced at a regular rate through mining, and will continue to be produced until 2140.

The fact that bitcoin seems to be deflationary simply shows just how much inflation people are used to, such that something that actually holds it's value over time appears to be deflationary to those ignorant of the facts.

A deflationary currency HAS NEVER ACTUALLY BEEN TESTED. All these theories about how it will fail are based on the lies told by economists who are paid to justify our current inflationary currency. There has never been a real world example of a true deflationary currency.

So it'll be deflationary for the next century? That isn't really helping your point.

And I fail to see how you can proclaim statements made by economy experts to be "lies" when you obviously have no financial experience to speak of.

 

[Chiropteran]

And the aforementioned are services offered by PayPal that buyers appreciate.

Nope. No, buyers appreciate paypal fees. Buyers appreciate *some* of those services, maybe. And scammers appreciate them even more.

These are payment methods.

Bitcoin is both a currency and a payment method. It's a hard concept at first, but if you struggle you might be able to comprehend it.

 

[Chiropteran]

So it'll be deflationary for the next century? That isn't really helping your point.

And I fail to see how you can proclaim statements made by economy experts to be "lies" when you obviously have no financial experience to speak of.

You are really bad at this. Inflation is caused by printing more money. USD is inflationary because more money is constantly pumped into the system. Bitcoin are mined, at a regular and consistent rate, and pumped into the system. Technically bitcoin are INFLATIONARY. Not deflationary, not for the next century, not ever. In short, on a scale of 1-10 you are an 11 when it comes to being wrong.

As I said, you *think* they are deflationary, because they gain value, but that is simply what happens when the market demands grow faster than inflation.

 

[Rakehellion]

Nope. No, buyers appreciate paypal fees. Buyers appreciate *some* of those services, maybe. And scammers appreciate them even more.

Buyers never see PayPal fees. And sellers can be scammers too, which is why these services are in place.

 

[Chiropteran]

Buyers never see PayPal fees. And sellers can be scammers too, which is why these services are in place.

You are correct, instead they see the paypal price as the normal price and the bitcoin price as a 5% discount. Either way, bitcoin offers a benefit to the buyer.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Yeah, buy high and sell low, that is what this Charles Kozierok guy thinks is a smart strategy.

Apparently your ability to read and comprehend simple English is about as well-developed as your understanding of finance and economics.

I look forward to the next big collapse in the value of your valueless "currency".

 

[LegendKiller]

Yes I said that. Then you absurdly stated that the fed doesn't lend ANY money to banks, which is provably false. I'm not going to bother arguing with you, since you have already tried to pass off a lie as the truth.

Nice little pathetic bait-n-switch you are running there. Let's break down sentence structure...


"Every month the fed CREATES 40 billion dollars out of thin air, and LENDS it to banks by buying up some mortgages."

Now, specifically, you created *one* sentence. That singular sentence's sole purpose is to say the Fed "creates" money through QE and *lends* it to the banks, specifically, it "lends" the money *created* through QE to them. You did not say a single thing about the Fed "lending" through the window.

My post sentence is structured like this...

"The Fed doesn't "lend" the banks anything, you said it yourself, they buy it."

This sentence, in case you have reading comprehension and extrapolation issues, directly addresses your sentence about the Fed "lending" through QE, which it doesn't. I *SPECIFICALLY* kept to QE, saying the Fed buys it.

You are the one who was caught in a lie because you have no clue what you are talking about and are now trying to walk back your statement.

 

[Chiropteran]

Are you serious? Replace 'lend' with any word of your choice. Does that materially change my argument in any significant way? No. I can't believe you took so much time and effort to make such a non-point.

 

[Chiropteran]

I look forward to the next big collapse

Me too!

The first crash was down to $.50
The second crash was down to $5
The third, and most recent was down to $50

Will the next be $500? Maybe the pattern will break and the next crash will be down to $800. Who knows?

 

[LegendKiller]

Are you serious? Replace 'lend' with any word of your choice. Does that materially change my argument in any significant way? No. I can't believe you took so much time and effort to make such a non-point.

Ohhh, so now you are backing down even more, eh?

you have no fundamental understanding of what you are speaking about, like most people who fail to educate themselves using anything other than youtube.edu. You don't even know what QE is, thinking that it is "lending" speaks volumes on how little people should listen to your opinion about money.

 

[Chiropteran]

Ohhh, so now you are backing down even more, eh?

you have no fundamental understanding of what you are speaking about, like most people who fail to educate themselves using anything other than youtube.edu. You don't even know what QE is, thinking that it is "lending" speaks volumes on how little people should listen to your opinion about money.

It's not backing down to admit a simple error.

Actually I said lending because that is what it is. They "buy" a mortgage, but a mortgage itself is debt, effectively they are lending money to the original mortgage taker. I admit they didn't lend the money to the bank, precisely in that case, but the Fed does lend money to banks all the time, so your statement that they never lend any money to the banks is completely false as well.

However, it makes no difference. Replace lend with buy. It's not any better for us, in fact it is worse. USD are being inflated at the tune of 85 billion a month.

All in all, I misspoke, while you are purposely trying to spread lies to fit your argument.

You are pretty close to the bottom of the argument pyramid, arguing about the tone of my argument instead of the substance. You know you can't refute my actual point so you don't even try.

 

[LegendKiller]

It's not backing down to admit a simple error.

Actually I said lending because that is what it is. They "buy" a mortgage, but a mortgage itself is debt, effectively they are lending money to the original mortgage taker. I admit they didn't lend the money to the bank, precisely in that case, but the Fed does lend money to banks all the time, so your statement that they never lend any money to the banks is completely false as well.

However, it makes no difference. Replace lend with buy. It's not any better for us, in fact it is worse. USD are being inflated at the tune of 85 billion a month.

All in all, I misspoke, while you are purposely trying to spread lies to fit your argument.

You are pretty close to the bottom of the argument pyramid, arguing about the tone of my argument instead of the substance. You know you can't refute my actual point so you don't even try.

Are you serious? I already broke down how my first sentence, where I said the Fed doesn't lend banks anything during QE, was directly addressing QE, NOT the window. Do you lack reading comprehension skills?

LOL @ your triangle when you can't even address basic posts or understand your illogical arguments like "we need inflation because of interest", which I addressed in posts above and tried to refute every argument you made. However, you take probably the most base of internet tactics at arguing (which your triangle doesn't cover), you simply dodge it. This is another way i know you really don't know what you are talking about.

You have no real depth of knowledge, you just chew other people's cud and regurgitate it. It's quite sad really, you seem to be a somewhat intelligent guy but you are one of these guys who thinks your smarter than everybody else just because you "think different". In reality you're just the same as every other "think different" guy.

Somebody here posted something about the typical profile of a conspiracy believer, you seem to fit the profile pretty well.

 

[Chiropteran]

Are you serious?

No, I was never serious.

This is where you started your whole stupid rant:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34932678&postcount=323

You were responding to a quote from The Matrix. The Matrix is a movie, a work of fiction. I just thought it was funny and appropriate to post in this thread. It's not a quote based on facts or truth, so I really don't really care if you want to spend a week analyzing it and trying to prove it wrong.

I told you this much in my first reply to you in this recent argument, but you seem to have failed to grasp this basic fact, so I am reminding you again.

I'm not going to waste time defending the points, because they aren't my points to defend. Feel free to continue to attack this quote from The Matrix.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Me too!

The first crash was down to $.50
The second crash was down to $5
The third, and most recent was down to $50

Will the next be $500? Maybe the pattern will break and the next crash will be down to $800. Who knows?

How about "down 20% in 24 hours"?

Bitcoin is a better simulation of a guy at a roulette wheel than a currency.

Your problem is that you continually conflate "I'm going to make money when it goes up in value!" with "this is a good currency". Whether it's deliberate or a consequence of your lack of understanding of financial matters, well, only you know that. And like most gamblers, you'll continue to think it's a sure thing as long as you're still up.

 

[Chiropteran]

How about "down 20% in 24 hours"?

Bitcoin is a better simulation of a guy at a roulette wheel than a currency.

Your problem is that you continually conflate "I'm going to make money when it goes up in value!" with "this is a good currency". Whether it's deliberate or a consequence of your lack of understanding of financial matters, well, only you know that. And like most gamblers, you'll continue to think it's a sure thing as long as you're still up.

USD is known, for a fact, to lose value every year through inflation. This is 100% guaranteed, every economist alive agrees to this fact, and it's not under any dispute.

Bitcoin, may or may not lose value each year. That right there is good enough for me. I'll take a risk at a loss over a guaranteed loss EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's just icing on the cake that thus far, bitcoin has gained 1000% each year, OR MORE, even if you factor in the current "20% down".

Gotta love how you pop in here every time value drops, and then mysteriously vanish for weeks while value increases, until the next dip. Why don't you be honest with your reporting and report the % change every single day, whether it goes up or down? You don't want to do that, because you have an agenda here, and the truth doesn't fit your agenda.

As far as volatility, keep on repeating the same argument over and over. It's not going to change reality though. I've refuted it enough here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34956078&postcount=350

Not going to bother repeating myself, I'll just link back to that post over and over as long as you want to keep parroting the same tired line.

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

this is slightly off topic but did you guys hear about the esea fiasco? their client would secretly mine bitcoins on user machines for them .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCWi2e9yu74

edit: ESEA is a paid matchmaking service for various online games.

 

[Chiropteran]

this is slightly off topic but did you guys hear about the esea fiasco? their client would secretly mine bitcoins on user machines for them .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCWi2e9yu74

edit: ESEA is a paid matchmaking service for various online games.

It's both brilliant and completely unethical. TBH I'm surprised there hasn't been a huge bitcoin mining malware thing going around yet.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

USD is known, for a fact, to lose value every year through inflation. This is 100% guaranteed, every economist alive agrees to this fact, and it's not under any dispute.

Irrelevant.

Bitcoin, may or may not lose value each year. That right there is good enough for me. I'll take a risk at a loss over a guaranteed loss EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's just icing on the cake that thus far, bitcoin has gained 1000% each year, OR MORE, even if you factor in the current "20% down".

Yes, you like gambling. Good for you.

That has nothing to do with making a valid currency.

Gotta love how you pop in here every time value drops, and then mysteriously vanish for weeks while value increases, until the next dip.

Ah, now you're resorting to lying.

I post in the thread when I see it on the recent posts list and when I feel like I have something to say. It just so happens that every time I look at the price history of bitcoin, there are huge downswings in short periods of time that make an utter joke out of the notion that it in any way resembles a currency.

Why don't you be honest with your reporting and report the % change every single day, whether it goes up or down? You don't want to do that, because you have an agenda here, and the truth doesn't fit your agenda.

And you're lying again. I have pointed out in the past when it has gone up dramatically as well, because the entire point is that it is an unstable market easily manipulated and not something that sane people who aren't engaged in illegal activities would use as a currency.

As far as volatility, keep on repeating the same argument over and over.

Thanks, I think I will. At least until you have a rational counter-argument. I won't hold my breath, though.

You've refuted nothing. Worse, you've learned nothing. Again, I'm not sure if you hype the crap out of this scheme due to self-interest or ignorance, and I'm not sure which would be worse.

I do know that the more you argue that bitcoins are good because you think they'll go up in value, the more you undermine any notion that these things represent a currency. The fact that you don't understand that, well, that's sort of the point.

 

[Chiropteran]

Irrelevant.
Yes, you like gambling. Good for you.
That has nothing to do with making a valid currency.

It's completely relevant. See below re: volatility.

I do like gambling in a game I can win, when the alternative is gambling in a fixed game where I am guaranteed to lose (the USD, imagine that). If there was a 3rd option that give me a guarantee of of 100% consistent value that couldn't be chiseled away at will by government or other organizations, you might have a valid point. Sadly that 3rd option doesn't exist. You either gamble in a fixed game and lose, or you gamble with bitcoin and possibly come out ahead. Or you gamble in another game such as stocks or precious metals, but it's all gambling. It's not a choice between gambling or not. It's a choice between playing a fair game or a game run by government con-artists.

Ah, now you're resorting to lying.

I post in the thread when I see it on the recent posts list and when I feel like I have something to say. It just so happens that every time I look at the price history of bitcoin, there are huge downswings in short periods of time that make an utter joke out of the notion that it in any way resembles a currency.

"It just so happens."

And you're lying again. I have pointed out in the past when it has gone up dramatically as well, because the entire point is that it is an unstable market easily manipulated and not something that sane people who aren't engaged in illegal activities would use as a currency.

When you post things that I have a refutation for, I post the reasoning and proof that you are wrong. Apparently if I post something wrong you just call me a big fat liar and don't bother to post the proof. I guess we should all just believe you, after all you said it so it must be true, right?

To the point: why don't you actually point out one of these posts where you are complaining about the bitcoin value increasing (so I can laugh at it)?

Also, could you please produce some non-biased individuals who actually have a problem with their currency gaining value? You keep claiming it's such a bad thing, but I have never met anyone anywhere who was actually upset when their money gained value.

Your whole argument boils down to a huge Straw Man. You make a false statement that "volatility is bad", when volatility is in an upwards direction, and then you base your entire argument on that false statement. Volatility is not bad- it is necessary.

blah blah volatility blah blah

Nice how you went through my post and responded to it point by point, but completely ignored the link to my post explaining why your notion of "volatility" is irrelevant. Since you seem be suffering from some sort of handicap when it comes to clicking on my link, I'll just paste the entire post here:

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, even though I have already answered this question many times.

It's irrelevant because the drawbacks of the volatility are already accounted for, and DESPITE the volatility bitcoin is still incredibly successful, showing 1000% growth per year or more.

It's also irrelevant because one major use of bitcoin is money transfer. It doesn't matter if the value changes by the hour, because you can complete your transaction instantly and as far as you can tell you instantly receive your fiat money of choice, through bitpay or a similar service. You can use bitcoin as a money transfer device (like paypal) without ever holding any of it, if you want.

It's also irrelevant because it's a necessary evil. A few years ago a bitcoin was worth $.01, one year ago a bitcoin was worth $10, today a bitcoin is worth $135. You can't have growth like that without volatility, it's impossible. You also can't have a stable currency until after the growth is done. Current market cap like 1.5 billion. A corporation or wealthy individual could create a huge amount of volatility at will, by buying 2 billion worth of bitcoin at once, for example. The currency needs to grow large enough that such manipulation is harder.

The very existence of volatility is why bitcoin is so exciting now. When bitcoin isn't volatile anymore, it's finished growing. If you want to wait until it is stable go ahead, but it'll be just like waiting until Apple is already at $600 per share. You aren't going to see huge gains like you see now. Yeah, buy high and sell low, that is what this Charles Kozierok guy thinks is a smart strategy.

Bitcoin will be stable when it reaches it's near-maximum value. There will still be some increase in value due to the general output of the world economy increasing with time, but not as dramatic as it is today. Do you really want to wait until then before getting involved?

 

[FelixDeCat]

this is slightly off topic but did you guys hear about the esea fiasco? their client would secretly mine bitcoins on user machines for them .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCWi2e9yu74

edit: ESEA is a paid matchmaking service for various online games.

This does not surprise me. Programmers / IT employees have always been a questionable lot in my eyes. To see some of them go rogue only confirms my suspicions.


:\

 

[ultimatebob]

How about "down 20% in 24 hours"?

Bitcoin is a better simulation of a guy at a roulette wheel than a currency.

Your problem is that you continually conflate "I'm going to make money when it goes up in value!" with "this is a good currency". Whether it's deliberate or a consequence of your lack of understanding of financial matters, well, only you know that. And like most gamblers, you'll continue to think it's a sure thing as long as you're still up.

Bitcoin seems to have a better profitability track record than betting on roulette. Maybe it's more like Pump and Dump penny stock scam.

 

[Juddog]

Several people feel the same way about priests. You have thousands of bad ones out of the tens of thousands and all the morons color them all.
:\

ftfy

 

[Charles Kozierok]

It's completely relevant. See below re: volatility.

Volatility has nothing to do with steady-state inflation. You're an ignoramus.

I do like gambling in a game I can win, when the alternative is gambling in a fixed game where I am guaranteed to lose (the USD, imagine that).

Again, because you are ignorant, you conflate two completely different issues. You are arguing for bitcoin as a speculative investment, not a currency.

If there was a 3rd option that give me a guarantee of of 100% consistent value that couldn't be chiseled away at will by government or other organizations, you might have a valid point.

If you think bitcoin gives you a "guarantee of 100% consistent value" then you haven't just drunk the Koolaid -- you're drowning in it.

When you post things that I have a refutation for, I post the reasoning and proof that you are wrong.

And as soon as you do that I will concede those points. As I have done many times on ATF, as many can attest.

But you don't refute anything, just continue to demonstrate your lack of knowledge.

Apparently if I post something wrong you just call me a big fat liar and don't bother to post the proof. I guess we should all just believe you, after all you said it so it must be true, right?

If you were a bit less self-absorbed, you might notice that I am saying the same things as about a half-dozen other people here. People who, I can tell from their posts, actually have a clue of what they speak. As for me, I happen to have an MBA-equivalent from a top ten US school and over 15 years of experience in the business world. I've studied finance and investments for decades. That's not a reason by itself for people to believe what I'm saying, but if you want to make this about personal believability, then credentials and experience matter.

Also, could you please produce some non-biased individuals who actually have a problem with their currency gaining value? You keep claiming it's such a bad thing, but I have never met anyone anywhere who was actually upset when their money gained value.

Once again, you presume that your currency is always gaining value. But this is a lie, because it doesn't always gain value. That's the flaw with your portrayal of this scam / gambling routine / pyramid scheme -- the only people who really made out well were the ones at the start.

I just went to Mt. Gox to look. Bitcoins have gone down 10% in the last three hours. So the claim that the currency always gains value is bullshit. And if you can't understand why someone running a business wouldn't want to keep funds in a currency that goes down by 10% in a matter of hours, you are either hopelessly stupid or dishonest.

Your whole argument boils down to a huge Straw Man. You make a false statement that "volatility is bad", when volatility is in an upwards direction, and then you base your entire argument on that false statement. Volatility is not bad- it is necessary.

Once again, you demonstrate that you have absolutely no idea what volatility is or what it means.

Nice how you went through my post and responded to it point by point, but completely ignored the link to my post explaining why your notion of "volatility" is irrelevant. Since you seem be suffering from some sort of handicap when it comes to clicking on my link, I'll just paste the entire post here:

It was bullshit the first time you posted it, and it's not getting any less bullshitty through repetition.

You are a kid who got lucky with a lottery ticket and now thinks the lottery is a sure thing. That's what all your posts boil down to.