Virtual currencies recovering!

[Kntx]

You'd have to be pretty naïve to financial matters to believe that storing your wealth in cash USD is a good idea. You have to be naïve and a dumbass to store your wealth in bitcoins.

 

[jman19]

why the fuck would anyone invest in them?

At this point, no one financially literate sees bitcoins as an investment - they are a bet / trade.

 

[Chiropteran]

It was bullshit the first time you posted it, and it's not getting any less bullshitty through repetition.

Ah. If it's such bullshit, then why can't you refute any of it? You are simply dodging a perfectly valid argument because you are incapable of addressing it.

You keep regurgitating the same garbage over and over. I've never said bitcoin is a sure thing. I've never said it isn't volatile. I am in complete agreement with you when you say it may crash further or it "is volatile". Wrap your brain around that fact and quit repeating the same old Straw Man over and over.

If you think bitcoin gives you a "guarantee of 100% consistent value" then you haven't just drunk the Koolaid -- you're drowning in it.

I think you need to go back to grade school.

If there was a 3rd option that give me a guarantee of of 100% consistent value that couldn't be chiseled away at will by government or other organizations, you might have a valid point. Sadly that 3rd option doesn't exist.

Why the hell would I say the 100% consistent value doesn't exist if I was trying to imply that I was talking about bitcoin? It's really a struggle to debate with you because you seem to be completely inept at reading and understanding basic English.

 

[Doppel]

Bitcoin will be stable when it reaches it's near-maximum value.

It's sad how little chiropteran knows about this stuff, though in this case he stumbled upon the truth. This statement is true. Its maximum value will ultimately be $0 and only then will Bitcoin's value be stable.

Today it swung another 3000 points. Yep, that's a great currency :thumbsup:

 

[Doppel]

BTC has crashed again by any conventional definition of the term, now down to $80 from a high way over $100. I wonder how many crashes until people stop touting how the founder of it "predicted" it would have a few crashes, as if this is all just fine and part of the natural progression of this "currency". lols

You are a kid who got lucky with a lottery ticket and now thinks the lottery is a sure thing. That's what all your posts boil down to.

This describes him perfectly. It's no different than a guy who thinks he has figured out how to win at the casino. It's narcissism combined with naivety. Nothing special, nothing new. Chiropteran joins a long line of similarly delusional people who ignore wisdom and instead scream and cry how they must be right.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

BTC has crashed again by any conventional definition of the term, now down to $80 from a high way over $100. I wonder how many crashes until people stop touting how the founder of it "predicted" it would have a few crashes, as if this is all just fine and part of the natural progression of this "currency". lols

Yes, a nice 25% drop in .. 12 hours.

This describes him perfectly. It's no different than a guy who thinks he has figured out how to win at the casino. It's narcissism combined with naivety. Nothing special, nothing new. Chiropteran joins a long line of similarly delusional people who ignore wisdom and instead scream and cry how they must be right.

No, he's extra special because in addition to all of that, he actually thinks his casino is a "currency".

The core of the problem is that since he got his cheap, he views himself as "up" no matter how much the value of these valueless things goes down. He either doesn't realize, or doesn't recognize, that most people didn't get in at the start of the Ponzi scheme, and if you were a merchant stupid enough to take bitcoins for payment, then you just lost 50% of your money in one week.

 

[Chiropteran]

Yes, a nice 25% drop in .. 12 hours.
No, he's extra special because in addition to all of that, he actually thinks his casino is a "currency".

Zimbabwean dollar was a currency, and lost far more value over time.

I'm sorry you think the definition of currency is "USD". It isn't. Not all currency are stable, and I've posted over and over why bitcoin volatility is okay.

Here it is again, care to refute any of my points? Probably not, you would rather just create another Straw Man argument.

It's irrelevant because the drawbacks of the volatility are already accounted for, and DESPITE the volatility bitcoin is still incredibly successful, showing 1000% growth per year or more.

It's also irrelevant because one major use of bitcoin is money transfer. It doesn't matter if the value changes by the hour, because you can complete your transaction instantly and as far as you can tell you instantly receive your fiat money of choice, through bitpay or a similar service. You can use bitcoin as a money transfer device (like paypal) without ever holding any of it, if you want.

It's also irrelevant because it's a necessary evil. A few years ago a bitcoin was worth $.01, one year ago a bitcoin was worth $10, today a bitcoin is worth $135. You can't have growth like that without volatility, it's impossible. You also can't have a stable currency until after the growth is done. Current market cap like 1.5 billion. A corporation or wealthy individual could create a huge amount of volatility at will, by buying 2 billion worth of bitcoin at once, for example. The currency needs to grow large enough that such manipulation is harder.

The very existence of volatility is why bitcoin is so exciting now. When bitcoin isn't volatile anymore, it's finished growing. If you want to wait until it is stable go ahead, but it'll be just like waiting until Apple is already at $600 per share. You aren't going to see huge gains like you see now. Yeah, buy high and sell low, that is what this Charles Kozierok guy thinks is a smart strategy.

Bitcoin will be stable when it reaches it's near-maximum value. There will still be some increase in value due to the general output of the world economy increasing with time, but not as dramatic as it is today. Do you really want to wait until then before getting involved?

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Zimbabwean dollar was a currency, and lost far more value over time.

You're now not only making moronic "arguments", you're recycling them.

As I said last time you embarrassed yourself with this particular bit of nonsense, the Zimbabwean dollar ceased being a currency of any real meaning as soon as it became unstable. In terms of currency, Bitcoin resembles the Zimbabwean dollar a lot more than the US dollar.

I'm sorry you think the definition of currency is "USD". It isn't.

Really? Wow. I guess all the billions of people and corporations who consider it the standard of the world monetary system are all just confused and really waiting to be educated by the great "Chiropteran".

Do you know what a reserve currency is? Do you know what that means? Of course you don't.

Tell me -- why is it that everyone, and I mean everyone, constantly refers to bitcoins in terms of their US $ value? Including you? Think about it for a year or two and the answer may occur to you.

Let me explain it to you using small words. If I run a business, and I accept bitcoins, that may help me get a couple of customers, but it doesn't help me in terms of my expenses. I have to convert those to something that most people will accept (i.e., a currency). So I have to turn them into US dollars. If between the time I accept the bitcoins and the time I pay my supplies, the value of the bitcoins has gone down 30%, guess who's screwed? Right -- me, for being stupid enough to accept bitcoins.

Not all currency are stable, and I've posted over and over why bitcoin volatility is okay.

Yes, you have. And your rationale for why it is okay basically boils down to "because I really want it to be okay".

Here it is again, care to refute any of my points?

I've already refuted all of them, thanks.

Have you noticed that not one single person here agrees with you about your bitcoin puffery? I bet you did, but you're just pretending that you are winning this argument, just like you're pretending that it's great to have a currency that a bored billionaire can bounce up and down faster than a monkey on a pogo stick.

 

[Chiropteran]

I've already refuted all of them, thanks.

A bald faced lie.

I'm going to call your bluff: Please link to ANY prior (unedited) post in which you have refuted those exact points, and I will immediately cease posting in this thread for as long as you wish. You can then spout your nonsense unobstructed by me.

 

[surfsatwerk]

A bold faced lie.

I'm going to call your bluff: Please link to ANY prior (unedited) post in which you have refuted those exact points, and I will immediately cease posting in this thread for as long as you wish. You can then spout your nonsense unobstructed by me.

Irrigation

 

[Chiropteran]

Really? Wow. I guess all the billions of people and corporations who consider it the standard of the world monetary system are all just confused and really waiting to be educated by the great "Chiropteran".

Again you prove your idiocy. The definition of a rectangle is not a square, yet every square is a rectangle. The definition of a currency is not USD, while USD is a currency. You are either making idiotic assumptions and jumping to false conclusions, or you are consciously trying to create another Straw Man argument.

Nice try, but it's not going to fly.

 

[Chiropteran]

Do you know what a reserve currency is? Do you know what that means? Of course you don't.

This is your method of operation. You lied, you got caught in a lie, so you are moving the goalposts. Bitcoin is a currency, but it isn't a reserve currency, so you attempt to change your argument now that you have been proven wrong.

Tell me -- why is it that everyone, and I mean everyone, constantly refers to bitcoins in terms of their US $ value? Including you? Think about it for a year or two and the answer may occur to you.

Why do you think I don't already know this? I've repeated over and over that bitcoin is a long way away from mainstream. It's going to grow 1000X over or more before it is. It's common sense that you measure value in terms that everyone can understand, today that term is USD.

Let me explain it to you using small words. If I run a business, and I accept bitcoins, that may help me get a couple of customers, but it doesn't help me in terms of my expenses. I have to convert those to something that most people will accept (i.e., a currency). So I have to turn them into US dollars. If between the time I accept the bitcoins and the time I pay my supplies, the value of the bitcoins has gone down 30%, guess who's screwed? Right -- me, for being stupid enough to accept bitcoins.

Wrong. None of that is true. You are being a LIAR. I have explained this many times in this thread.

The truth: if you want to easily accept bitcoin, without the risks you mention, you use bitpay. You never hold any bitcoin, and you always get the exact expect USD payment for each sale.

Have you noticed that not one single person here agrees with you about your bitcoin puffery? I bet you did, but you're just pretending that you are winning this argument, just like you're pretending that it's great to have a currency that a bored billionaire can bounce up and down faster than a monkey on a pogo stick.

Why would anyone else want to argue with someone like you, who twists around everything, constantly uses logical fallacy as the basis of your argument, and refuses to ever acknowledge errors?

 

[randomrogue]

I have spent some time in Zimbabwe and using that as your basemark to try to justify your shitty virtual currency is a giant joke.

Admit it, your virtual currency is garbage speculation for those who have no clue how to invest properly.

 

[Crusty]

Let me explain it to you using small words. If I run a business, and I accept bitcoins, that may help me get a couple of customers, but it doesn't help me in terms of my expenses. I have to convert those to something that most people will accept (i.e., a currency). So I have to turn them into US dollars. If between the time I accept the bitcoins and the time I pay my supplies, the value of the bitcoins has gone down 30%, guess who's screwed? Right -- me, for being stupid enough to accept bitcoins.

That is completely wrong and false.

https://bitpay.com/

 

[Chiropteran]

I have spent some time in Zimbabwe and using that as your basemark to try to justify your shitty virtual currency is a giant joke.

Currency is a label. The argument was never about how reliably or consistent bitcoin is. It's a simple yes or no question: Is bitcoin a currency? Charles StrawManerok thinks it isn't. I say it is. Zimbabwe sets the bar for "currency" pretty low, and bitcoin is certainly more of a currency than the Zimbabwe dollar.

Admit it, your virtual currency is garbage speculation for those who have no clue how to invest properly.

No, that isn't what it is. It's not even intended to be an investment and the speculation probably does more harm than good- but it's inevitable that some will speculate on something that has increased in value 50,000X since it's inception a few short years ago.

You can call it garbage if you want, and you can call the investors clueless, but they are the ones with millions of dollars after a tiny original investment and you are the one living in your mom's basement arguing on a forum.

 

[Doppel]

That is completely wrong and false.

https://bitpay.com/

How do you not realize you just made Charles' point for him? Bitpay let's a vendor take stupid bitcoins and convert immediately to real money.

 

[Crusty]

How do you not realize you just made Charles' point for him? Bitpay let's a vendor take stupid bitcoins and convert immediately to real money.

Did you even bother to read about Bitpay?

http://www.howtoacceptbitcoin.com/

Maybe you should read that as it spells it out in plain English. There is NO risk to the business, AND the fees are lower than credit cards.

 

[randomrogue]

No actually I'm the one with a portfolio of assets that are actually worth something. I own shares in companies that generate profits, dividends, and yields. I use currencies that are not wildly volatile to transfer assets between the USA and Europe where I live and I can go into any store and spend those currencies. Whether I have GBP, Euros, Dollars, or RMB on me I can safely spend them, trade them, save them, and invest with them.

For the bitcoin to be a currency it has to be accepted. It's not. It has to be used. It's not. You might as well trade pokemon cards.

 

[Chiropteran]

For the bitcoin to be a currency it has to be accepted. It's not. It has to be used. It's not. You might as well trade pokemon cards.

I'm sorry, but this is false. It's accepted plenty of places and it's used to near it's limits in some cases, there is talk about increase block size limits because the transaction limit is sometimes hit.

It's not accepted everywhere, but neither is USD, or GBP. A currency is not defined by universal acceptance.

 

[randomrogue]

I'm sorry, but this is false. It's accepted plenty of places and it's used to near it's limits in some cases, there is talk about increase block size limits because the transaction limit is sometimes hit.

It's not accepted everywhere, but neither is USD, or GBP. A currency is not defined by universal acceptance.

Either you're retarded or you're trolling.

I have been all over the world and I have yet to run into a place that accepts or trades bitcoins. Zip, Zero, Zilch.

On the flipside the USD, GBP, and Euro is accepted in small towns in Africa.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

How do you not realize you just made Charles' point for him? Bitpay let's a vendor take stupid bitcoins and convert immediately to real money.

I'm not sure if this is going from the sublime to the ridiculous or the other way around at this point.

Currency is a label. The argument was never about how reliably or consistent bitcoin is. It's a simple yes or no question: Is bitcoin a currency?

If it's not reliable or consistent, then it doesn't function as a currency, no matter what you decide to label it out of self-interest.

That is completely wrong and false.

https://bitpay.com/

Is it now?

Here's what I said:

If between the time I accept the bitcoins and the time I pay my supplies, the value of the bitcoins has gone down 30%, guess who's screwed? Right -- me, for being stupid enough to accept bitcoins.

Here's a comment direct from the site YOU just linked:

On days like March 6 where the price of bitcoin dropped by 15% in a single hour, the merchant would assume the full 15% loss on the sale because of the price volatility.

Gosh, I'm just so wrong! You people are ridiculous.

Bonus free hint: A "currency" that people are only willing to accept by using a service that guarantees they can dump it for another one is not a currency at all.

Either you're retarded or you're trolling.

I don't discount the possibility that it is both.

ETA: Just wait until governments start going after this crap. That's when the real fun will begin.

 

[Crusty]

I'm not sure if this is going from the sublime to the ridiculous or the other way around at this point.



If it's not reliable or consistent, then it doesn't function as a currency, no matter what you decide to label it out of self-interest.



Is it now?

Here's what I said:



Here's a comment direct from the site YOU just linked:



Gosh, I'm just so wrong! You people are ridiculous.

Bonus free hint: A "currency" that people are only willing to accept by using a service that guarantees they can dump it for another one is not a currency at all.



I don't discount the possibility that it is both.

ETA: Just wait until governments start going after this crap. That's when the real fun will begin.

Reading comprehension is NOT your strong suit I see. They are talking about when a merchant does NOT use a company like Bitpay. That is the whole point of Bitpay.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Reading comprehension is NOT your strong suit I see. They are talking about when a merchant does NOT use a company like Bitpay.

Very good! So was I.

And if you're using something like bitpay to immediately convert your bitcoins to US dollars because bitcoins are too volatile to be relied upon, then that proves my entire point.

You know where else people would immediately try to convert the local currency to US dollars to avoid losing money? Zimbabwe.

 

[Chiropteran]

Either you're retarded or you're trolling.

I have been all over the world and I have yet to run into a place that accepts or trades bitcoins. Zip, Zero, Zilch.

On the flipside the USD, GBP, and Euro is accepted in small towns in Africa.

All over the world, really? You need to search a little harder.

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Also, some American companies based in America won't even accept USD:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30964217/

Don't even need to go to a tiny African village.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

All over the world, really? You need to search a little harder. Some American companies based in America won't even accept USD.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30964217/

It says they don't accept cash, not that they don't accept US dollars.

What a maroon.