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FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,714
2,610
126
Bitcoins are the future. Embrace them, or get left behind. Its a well known fact at the US is headed for default on the National Debt.

Bitcoins will be worth $5,000 each if Obama borrows the last borrowable dollar.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
LegendKiller, as "educated" as you are in economics your disdain for bitcoins comes accross as a purely emotional and illoigical bias. Why do you hate bitcoins so much? Did they molest you when you were a child?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
So when USD first came about, do you think people around the world gave a fuck about it? No, Bitcoins are a fledgling currency, in it's infancy. Of course you are going to have a hard time finding people to accept it, and of course the % of global GDP is going to be small. But every single currency in existence started the exact same way.

At least you are finally admitting it IS a currency, that's one step to getting people like you to accept the fact it is different from Gold and different than USD.

Is it a currency in the sense that some people transact in it? Sure. Is it a currency in that people should be transacting in it? Not currently. Does the fact that it is a medium for transacting legitimize it, make it have staying power, or make it so that it will be widely accepted? Nope.

Just because some quasi-anarchist decides a decentralized currency is good for them doesn't do anything at all. Further, just because you think the math behind it legitimizes it, doesn't make it so. Gold has scarcity too, however, many recognize the shortcomings of that.

Some societies had stones for currency, others buffalo chips. Just because it is a currency doesn't make it a good one. Further, at this point, while it may be a currency, it is acting more like a speculative boom/bust derivative with no value, much akin to tulip bulb futures.
 
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Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Is it a currency in the sense that some people transact in it? Sure. Is it a currency in that people should be transacting in it? Not currently. Does the fact that it is a medium for transacting legitimize it, make it have staying power, or make it so that it will be widely accepted? Nope.

I agree completely, well said. You were talking about USD, right?
 

Crusty

Lifer
Sep 30, 2001
12,684
2
81
Is it a currency in the sense that some people transact in it? Sure. Is it a currency in that people should be transacting in it? Not currently. Does the fact that it is a medium for transacting legitimize it, make it have staying power, or make it so that it will be widely accepted? Nope.

Just because some quasi-anarchist decides a decentralized currency is good for them doesn't do anything at all. Further, just because you think the math behind it legitimizes it, doesn't make it so. Gold has scarcity too, however, many recognize the shortcomings of that.

Well that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but that doesn't make Bitcoins illegitimate in the slightest way. You obviously still don't understand how Bitcoins work, scarcity is only a small part of Bitcoins. In fact, Bitcoins are infinitely divisible by design, so regardless of how scarce it might become, one can always transact any fractional amount of Bitcoins they so choose.

I could give you .00000001 BTC right now, just like I could give you 100,000 BTC right now(if I had any).
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
LegendKiller, as "educated" as you are in economics your disdain for bitcoins comes accross as a purely emotional and illoigical bias. Why do you hate bitcoins so much? Did they molest you when you were a child?

On the contrary, my disdain for them comes from the fact that people who are touting them are being far more illogical. I do also have a distain for libertopians because all of there theories operate in a vacuum, much like Bitcoins. "Well, the math proves it, so it works!" Sorry, but it isn't as simple as that.

I don't hate bitcoins at all, just like I don't hate gold. I think both are ridiculous as a currency , for many of the same, but some different reasons.

I did know one guy who graduated from UT Austin that worked at Deutsche Bank in their securitization department, smart guy. You wouldn't happen to be him, Crusty?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Well that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but that doesn't make Bitcoins illegitimate in the slightest way. You obviously still don't understand how Bitcoins work, scarcity is only a small part of Bitcoins. In fact, Bitcoins are infinitely divisible by design, so regardless of how scarce it might become, one can always transact any fractional amount of Bitcoins they so choose.

I could give you .00000001 BTC right now, just like I could give you 100,000 BTC right now(if I had any).

Wow, another gold argument and one I am quite aware of. Nice to see that you take one aspect I mention against BC but assume that is all I know about them. BFD that they are infinitely divisible. That doesn't give it any benefit at all.

Further, it does not get around the deflationary nature of them.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
I agree completely, well said. You were talking about USD, right?

Again, what does BC have going for it other than a bunch of computer geeks? While you tout that as a benefit the vast majority of people disagree.

In 10 years which is more likely, that the USD is defunct or that Bitcoins is defunct?
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Again, what does BC have going for it other than a bunch of computer geeks?

USD is just paper, or in many banks just numbers in an account.

All currency is intrinsically worthless, that isn't a valid argument against bitcoin, as bitcoin is simply the same as nearly all currency in that regard.

Every currency in the world, including bitcoin, can fluctuate due to supply and demand, and changing markets.

On the other hand, in the ways that bitcoin isn't the same, it is vastly superior to USD or GBP or Euros or any other modern currency. Bitcoin *won't* fluctuate in value due to the whims of a government, stealing money from banks (Cyprus), or devaluing their own currency by printing it up at will (USD $85 billion/ month QE4). Every centralized currency in existence has suffered from these problems.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
LK.

Everyone here knows the basic fundamentals of currencies. Bitcoin as a currency is backed by math, secure transactional history, decentralization, etc. USD is backed by the US government, who while may be more substantial, openly adopts bad policies that some people don't like. Both have their positives and negatives. Very simple.

Your emotional reasoning in this thread sound like Ebert declaring "video games aren't art". Pure emotional bias against something that is new and different... and quite possibly better.

Why don't you fuck off like a good little troll if you can't add to the discussion?

===

Anyone have more information about DHS seizing MTGox's assets? I saw 1 article yesterday and a short one found HERE. Didn't affect the value at all. I figured it would have done SOMETHING....
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
LK.

Everyone here knows the basic fundamentals of currencies. Bitcoin as a currency is backed by math, secure transactional history, decentralization, etc. USD is backed by the US government, who while may be more substantial, openly adopts bad policies that some people don't like. Both have their positives and negatives. Very simple.

Your emotional reasoning in this thread sound like Ebert declaring "video games aren't art". Pure emotional bias against something that is new and different... and quite possibly better.

Why don't you fuck off like a good little troll if you can't add to the discussion?

===

Anyone have more information about DHS seizing MTGox's assets? I saw 1 article yesterday and a short one found HERE. Didn't affect the value at all. I figured it would have done SOMETHING....

LOL @ my "emotional" response. Dude, I balance risk/reward every day in my career in finance and do it quite successfully and without "emotion". I was called "emotional" on GotApex, on the CFA Forums, and here, in 2004-2006 when I claimed a RE crash was happening. Why? Because it is an easy way to undercut somebody's argument online. You cannot tell emotion, you can only infer it and inference is influenced by your own perception and emotions. You want me to be emotional because it allows you to justify your side. "Well, he's being emotional, thus his arguments lack merit".

Further, as far as you saying I should exit the thread if I am not adding to it, that's akin to saying "I don't like your side, leave". I mean, really, is that all you can do when you run out of arguments, resort to pithy and petty undercuts of "emotion" and then stomp around?

Who is being emotional and illogical?

Chiro - the problem is that, like any other derivative that has no grounding in reality, it will be prone to far more fluctuations and manipulation. People claim silver is being manipulated, yet no central government controls it. Look at the Hunt brothers, or even derivative gold which is perceived as still a "currency" by people.

Bitcoins inherent weakness and inescapable flaw is that people do not want something that will inflate or deflate on a whim. Businesses cannot plan, people cannot be hired if businesses cannot plan and people will not spend if they think they cannot be hired or may be fired just because a currency fluctuates wildly. This is the inherent flaw in gold, not to mention the deflationary tendencies.

Systemic risk equates to lower growth because the discount rate at which projects are discounted is higher just from the fact that risks spreads from the riskless rate (if there is one) return and the actual risk of the product will be higher. The natural occurrence is that projects which would be viable at a lower discount rate will not be at a higher one, merely because of the added systemic risk. This lowers growth.

Removing the risk has a huge additive benefit, hence why a centrally managed currency has resulted in far higher growth and less volatility in the market. I will grant you that there have been several bubbles, but I would not equate those bubbles purely on the Fed but also on our political system and tying that to corporate politics more than monetary policy.

What it really comes down to is behavioral finance. Gold, quite illogically, has history to stand behind it and some innate fascination with shiny rocks. People like that security. The dollar has your future and your kid's future and their kid's future tied to it. People like that security. Bitcoins has fuzzy topics and "hard stuff" tied to it. It has no security and cannot be held. It doesn't even have a base reason for existing, jewelry or otherwise. People do not like what they cannot touch, what they cannot observe, what cannot be managed in some way. This is simple psychology.

Is Linux superior to Windows in many areas. Sure. However, every since I can remember Linux has a big problem. There is no central authority to help you. If you go online and ask geeks for help they start off by chuffing and then go into some gobbly crap about consols or this or that, or at least they did. Perhaps it has advanced in the 15 years since I started venturing into Linux. The problem is the same. It remains the realm of the highest denominator. You may have your own disdain for that, but for overall acceptance things must be tailored to the lowest common denominator. One that grandma can get, or a single mom with 3 children and 2 jobs can understand and can have faith in that it won't devalue at some geek's whim or that it won't deflate naturally, so she can buy bread at the same price next week as she did today.

Bitcoins, at least at this point and for the foreseeable future lacks all of this, just like Linux does. It lacks predictability, management and a central figure to do that management and that management is important.

I am sure you guys are chuffing now, thinking "We know this" but you easily dismiss it which is why, overall, Bitcoins, like Linux, will fail to be anything but a niche product.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Chiro - the problem is that, like any other derivative that has no grounding in reality, it will be prone to far more fluctuations and manipulation. People claim silver is being manipulated, yet no central government controls it. Look at the Hunt brothers, or even derivative gold which is perceived as still a "currency" by people.

That isn't a problem. The USD value fluctuates too. The thing is, you measure the fluctuations COMPARED to USD. So it looks like USD is perfectly stable, when it isn't.

While bitcoin may never become 100% stable in value, once it has widespread acceptance it will be standard other currency are measured against. The stability of bitcoin will be measured against bitcoin and it'll always remain 100% stable in the way you argue dollars are now.

>Bitcoins inherent weakness and inescapable flaw is that people do not want something that will inflate or deflate on a whim.

How on earth is that a flaw of bitcoin? Every currency has this problem, you just don't notice the dollar inflation because you use dollars as the standard to which you compare other currency. Also, it's not actually a problem when your currency increases in value (deflates). It's kind of a good thing.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com

Linux is hardly niche. Ever here of Android? It also dominates the entire spectrum of the server market.

What exactly is your point in regards to crypto-currencies in general? Just that it will "always be a niche product"? Even if it remains niche, it will still grow in total market value for the near future. Do you view all the crypto-currencies as a bad investment?
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
So..worth starting to mine now?

From an electricity cost perspective, mining has been worthwhile for a long time and is still very profitable.

From a hardware cost perspective, that is if you are thinking about building a system simply for bitcoin mining, it requires bit more faith. Last time I did the calculations I think break-even was after running for 9 months or more. If difficulty increases greatly before then and/or if bitcoin value crashes again then you might never break even directly. Some risk can be mitigated by selling your hardware after the fact.

If you want a video card for other purposes such as gaming, then it doesn't hurt to get a good mining card and mine bitcoin on the side, if you are willing to spend hours of your time learning about it and messing with settings.

Just don't expect the bitcoin mined to make you rich anytime soon, the most plausible outcome is that you might make some money and come out net-ahead if you later sell your video card but not much else.

Historically, bitcoin has increased in value by 10X or more per year on average so far, but it's a whole different game if you are mining and holding instead of selling and you enter into the territory of speculation. Personally I think bitcoin still has a lot of room to grow and I am hoping to see $1000 per bitcoin or more before I sell, but I also know this will probably take years, and may never occur.
 

gothamhunter

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2010
4,464
6
81
From an electricity cost perspective, mining has been worthwhile for a long time and is still very profitable.

From a hardware cost perspective, that is if you are thinking about building a system simply for bitcoin mining, it requires bit more faith. Last time I did the calculations I think break-even was after running for 9 months or more. If difficulty increases greatly before then and/or if bitcoin value crashes again then you might never break even directly. Some risk can be mitigated by selling your hardware after the fact.

If you want a video card for other purposes such as gaming, then it doesn't hurt to get a good mining card and mine bitcoin on the side, if you are willing to spend hours of your time learning about it and messing with settings.

Just don't expect the bitcoin mined to make you rich anytime soon, the most plausible outcome is that you might make some money and come out net-ahead if you later sell your video card but not much else.

Historically, bitcoin has increased in value by 10X or more per year on average so far, but it's a whole different game if you are mining and holding instead of selling and you enter into the territory of speculation. Personally I think bitcoin still has a lot of room to grow and I am hoping to see $1000 per bitcoin or more before I sell, but I also know this will probably take years, and may never occur.

Well, I already have a gaming machine I was thinking of re-purposing into a miner.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
I know you said it was an intentional exaggeration, but 1000% deflation in 5 years? Trying to use this as an example of instability in the dollar is laughable when it is much much more likely to happen with BITC instead.

When was I trying to use this as an example of the instability of anything. Try reading.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Linux is hardly niche. Ever here of Android? It also dominates the entire spectrum of the server market.

What exactly is your point in regards to crypto-currencies in general? Just that it will "always be a niche product"? Even if it remains niche, it will still grow in total market value for the near future. Do you view all the crypto-currencies as a bad investment?

Have you seen it unwrapped and distributed on a desktop to any large extent? I suppose tabs are taking over, but my point was that prior to Android being a centralized role, it remained a product of geeks, something which most people didn't bother to understand because it took too much time and was too difficult to operate.

This, again, is your problem and the same with Chiro above, you still think of CCs as an "investment" when you need to think about it as a medium of exchange first, then an investment which you hold as a result of transacting with the medium. Until that occurs it will be a horrible "currency" *and* "investment" as a result.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
That isn't a problem. The USD value fluctuates too. The thing is, you measure the fluctuations COMPARED to USD. So it looks like USD is perfectly stable, when it isn't.

While bitcoin may never become 100% stable in value, once it has widespread acceptance it will be standard other currency are measured against. The stability of bitcoin will be measured against bitcoin and it'll always remain 100% stable in the way you argue dollars are now.

>Bitcoins inherent weakness and inescapable flaw is that people do not want something that will inflate or deflate on a whim.

How on earth is that a flaw of bitcoin? Every currency has this problem, you just don't notice the dollar inflation because you use dollars as the standard to which you compare other currency. Also, it's not actually a problem when your currency increases in value (deflates). It's kind of a good thing.

What do you wish to measure the fluctuations against? How do you isolate exogenous variables? Do you measure it in the price of corn? If that's the case, how do you take into account ethanol and the feedback of fuel from ethanol and middle east turmoil? If you measure it in gold how do you isolate that from derivative gold as opposed to the spot price of physical gold?

You are using shitty statistical methodologies. You measure stability by standard deviation. At this point the standard deviation of the USD is low relative to the SD of Bitcoins.

Sure, every form of currency has a flaw, but some flaws are unsurmountable as they do not have sufficient offsets to make the currency worthwhile.

Just the fact you think a deflationary spiral is a good thing only proves you have no idea how to run a business. Do you even work?
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
What do you wish to measure the fluctuations against? How do you isolate exogenous variables? Do you measure it in the price of corn? If that's the case, how do you take into account ethanol and the feedback of fuel from ethanol and middle east turmoil? If you measure it in gold how do you isolate that from derivative gold as opposed to the spot price of physical gold?

You are using shitty statistical methodologies. You measure stability by standard deviation. At this point the standard deviation of the USD is low relative to the SD of Bitcoins.

Sure, every form of currency has a flaw, but some flaws are unsurmountable as they do not have sufficient offsets to make the currency worthwhile.

Just the fact you think a deflationary spiral is a good thing only proves you have no idea how to run a business. Do you even work?

Yeah, the instability will be an issue with using it as a currency so it HAS to be regulated by something. What if regulation was built in to the algorithm itself? Do you think that some sort of central authority should regulate it?

How would LK design a CC if he had too?
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,979
3,327
146
So I'm a bitcoin noob so sorry for the dumb question, but what happens if these secure servers bitcoins come from become unsecure? Essentially the currency would be dead over night, right?
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
So I'm a bitcoin noob so sorry for the dumb question, but what happens if these secure servers bitcoins come from become unsecure? Essentially the currency would be dead over night, right?

What bitcoin servers? The system is entirely decentralized. The bitcoin servers are every full node run by anyone, anyone running bitcoin-qt.exe is running a full node. Shutting them all down would require shutting down the internet.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
What bitcoin servers? The system is entirely decentralized. The bitcoin servers are every full node run by anyone, anyone running bitcoin-qt.exe is running a full node. Shutting them all down would require shutting down the internet.

I think what he means is what happens if someone cracks the Bitcoin encryption and starts flooding the network with easily minted coins.

I believe that Bitcoin uses AES-256 encryption, which is practically impossible to currently crack. That said, hackers love finding ways to crack the "impossible".
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
You measure stability by standard deviation. At this point the standard deviation of the USD is low relative to the SD of Bitcoins.

I keep answering this ,and you keep ignoring it. Here goes again: the fluctuation is a neccessary part of bitcoin's growth. $120 per bitcoin isn't the end of the line. Bitcoin is growing in usage daily, and given the set number of them that will ever exist, it's required that they increase in value to fit the needs of the larger user pool. This in turn attracts speculators, which can cause the value growth of bitcoin to exceed the usage growth for periods of time, and may lead to corrections back to the true value. All of this leads to instability.

Yet, someday bitcoin will be finished growing. Maybe 5% of commerce will use it, maybe 50%, maybe some incredible flaw will be discovered and it goes to 0%. But in any case, when bitcoin reaches it's final usage level, the instability will be far smaller than it is now. Without constant daily exponential growth it will be relatively stable, though there will still be some variation, just as there is with every currency.

However, as I said before, this is a bit telling. If you wait until bitcoin is stable before becoming involved, it means you are waiting to buy in at the maximum value. If stability is of the greatest importance for you, I guess that is your only choice, but the early adopters who are willing to risk a little instability will pay far less for bitcoin and end up reaping great rewards as the currency spreads in usage and becomes more valuable.

Just the fact you think a deflationary spiral is a good thing only proves you have no idea how to run a business. Do you even work?

A deflationary spiral is a little piece of fantasy conjured up by capitalist economists who make a living by justifying the status quo. A deflationary spiral has never, not even once, been ever seen to occur in the real world.

In fact, the computer hardware market is eerily similar in practice to what a deflationary spiral is supposed to look like- if you save your money, you can buy more computer hardware tomorrow than you can today, because it is always getting cheaper relative to the USD. Has the computer hardware market ground to a halt? Does everyone always wait to buy hardware later? No. The deflationary spiral myth has already been tested in the real world, and proven to be a lie.
 
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