Vulkan- NVidia's best hope for Tegra?

[NTMBK]

It's fascinating that people are still setting up DirectX 12 vs Vulkan as if it was some sort of NVidia vs. AMD battle. Vulkan may have come from AMD originally, but it could have massive benefits for NVidia.

NVidia has been trying unsuccessfully for years to push hardcore, PC-level gaming on to mobile chips. They have helped Epic to push out ports of Unreal engine generation after generation, but the only big name PC games to have been ported are ones which NVidia sponsored (Portal 2, Borderlands the Pre-Sequel). Why? Because almost nobody uses OpenGL on Windows. Porting to Android almost universally means porting the game from DirectX to OpenGL. And the dearth of good PC-quality games on Android makes it very difficult to justify buying a Tegra powered gaming device.

If Vulkan gains popularity among PC developers and is available on Android, then ports to Android will become significantly cheaper and easier to make. The business case for doing it will be easier to make, and we would see a much higher number of Windows games ported to Android. I fully expect that NVidia will be pushing its favourite developers (the usual TWIMTBP crowd like Ubisoft, and of course Epic) to use Vulkan for their PC games, so that they can easily port it to Android and provide one more reason to buy a Tegra device.

What do you all think? Will the next wave of TWIMTBP games run on Vulkan, or DX12?

 

[ShintaiDK]

DX12.

Windows to Android porting issue.
Windows HW is much more powerful.
Xbox One.
The never ending OpenGL bureaucratism.
Tegra isnt targetting the desktop.

 

[NTMBK]

Windows to Android porting issue.

It's still not "free" to port, obviously, but keeping the same graphics API makes a big piece of the puzzle easier.

Windows HW is much more powerful.

Is the average Windows HW really that much more powerful? Plenty of people are playing games on laptops with Intel integrated graphics- those are going to be slower than a Tegra X1, not faster.

Xbox One.

The counterpoint to that would be "Playstation 4". It uses (customized) OpenGL based graphics APIs, and has the larger user base.

The never ending OpenGL bureaucratism.

Which actually seems to be getting better. Game developers are driving through the Vulkan spec pretty rapidly.

Tegra isnt targetting the desktop.

Nope, but it is targeting consoles. See the latest Shield device.

 

[ShintaiDK]

OpenGL progression only works when it got the gun to its head. It was the last to the party yet again. And who knows when Vulkan will be released as final.

GPU is one thing, CPU the other. Specially the later ARM lacks quite heavy in. GPU requirement you can easily scale, unlike CPU.

PS4 already uses libgcm.

Tegra isnt targetting consoles. But an entirely new market.

Despite what some hope, OpenGL isnt going to change the landscape against Windows/DX. Nothing changed the last 10+ years and Vulkan doesnt offer anything new to the plate to change that course.

 

[NTMBK]

OpenGL progression only works when it got the gun to its head. It was the last to the party yet again. And who knows when Vulkan will be released as final.

GPU is one thing, CPU the other. Specially the later ARM lacks quite heavy in. GPU requirement you can easily scale, unlike CPU.

PS4 already uses libgcm.

Tegra isnt targetting consoles.

They literally just announced a Tegra powered console. On top of the microconsoles which already used it in the past. (By console I just mean "box intended for gaming in front of the TV".)

Yes, CPU is less powerful than most PCs, but will probably be more powerful than the ones in the PS4- 6 Jaguar @1.6GHz, vs. 4 Cortex A57. And the console CPUs will be the lowest common denominator limiting CPU demands for the next few years.

I thought that libgcm was based upon OpenGL, but heavily customised for the Playstation? I could well be wrong though. But remember that the DirectX version used on the XBox is also customised, with differences from PC DirectX.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yes, and what will be released the same time as the shield "console"?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9046/nvidia-grid-game-streaming-service-to-become-commercial-service

Thats right, GRID.

 

[NTMBK]

Yes, and what will be released the same time as the shield "console"?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9046/nvidia-grid-game-streaming-service-to-become-commercial-service

Thats right, GRID.

What else is launching at the same time as the Shield Console? Android ports of a whole heap of games.

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9044/50 Launch Titles.jpg

Playing games natively on the thing is a big part of the strategy- it's the reason it has a big Maxwell GPU on it, instead of just a h.264 decoder. Hell, they ported the new Borderlands game all by themselves! Epic just gave them the source code and NVidia did the port.

 

[ShintaiDK]

What else is launching at the same time as the Shield Console? Android ports of a whole heap of games.

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9044/50%20Launch%20Titles.jpg

Playing games natively on the thing is a big part of the strategy- it's the reason it has a big Maxwell GPU on it, instead of just a h.264 decoder. Hell, they ported the new Borderlands game all by themselves! Epic just gave them the source code and NVidia did the port.

Android games and PC games tends to differ massively. Even with the same name.

And the list shows what to expect. And Borderlands is a game that havent really changed since 2009. And it already works on IOS, Playstation Vita, PS3 etc.

There just isnt anything pointing to that Vulkan will change the landscape. DX will keep being the complete dominant for gaming outside the "mobile gaming".

 

[NTMBK]

Android games and PC games tends to differ massively. Even with the same name.

Citation needed. Anything outside of, say, a handful of graphics sliders being at the Low end of the scale?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Citation needed. Anything outside of, say, a handful of graphics sliders being at the Low end of the scale?

Just take a look on the games released. I assume you got both a smartphone/tablet and a PC.

Games that runs on 2004/2005 Xbox360/PS3 console hardware isnt going to change the landscape today in terms of gaming. Just because some ARM chip finally caught up with that performance.

 

[monstercameron]

OpenGL progression only works when it got the gun to its head. It was the last to the party yet again. And who knows when Vulkan will be released as final.

GPU is one thing, CPU the other. Specially the later ARM lacks quite heavy in. GPU requirement you can easily scale, unlike CPU.

PS4 already uses libgcm.

Tegra isnt targetting consoles. But an entirely new market.

Despite what some hope, OpenGL isnt going to change the landscape against Windows/DX. Nothing changed the last 10+ years and Vulkan doesnt offer anything new to the plate to change that course.

Another prediction...this will be interesting.

Warning issued for trolling.
-- stahlhart

 

[dacostafilipe]

Another prediction...this will be interesting.

Interesting? When was the last time he was right on something AMD related?

Warning issued for member callout.
-- stahlhart

 

[Unoid]

Citation needed. Anything outside of, say, a handful of graphics sliders being at the Low end of the scale?

You're trying to get blood from a rock talking back and forth with that user. Best to Ignore.

Warning issued for member callout.
-- stahlhart

On a positive note I believe Vulkan will definitely become more popular, if at minimum due to Valve more so than nvidia.

So long as nvidia doesn’t shoot the opengl move in the foot with GameWorksGL(TM)

 

[monstercameron]

Interesting? When was the last time he was right on something AMD related?

that was the point...needed /sarc tag at the end.

 

[Unoid]

Another prediction...this will be interesting.

That made me ROLF!, It can be hard to tell opinion and prediction as fact from him. Who roots for MS and DX when it's a monopoly that hurts every gamer?

Infraction issued for member callout. One day off for accumulation of points.
-- stahlhart

EDIT: how long would we wait for DX12 if AMD didn't release mantle.

 

[dacostafilipe]

that was the point...needed /sarc tag at the end.

Oh ... my bad :'(

 

[monstercameron]

You're trying to get blood from a rock talking back and forth with that user. Best to Ignore.

On a positive note I believe Vulkan will definitely become more popular, if at minimum due to Valve more so than nvidia.

So long as nvidia doesn’t shoot the opengl move in the foot with GameWorksGL(TM)

vkGameWorks would destroy the universe

 

[Pottuvoi]

I thought that libgcm was based upon OpenGL, but heavily customised for the Playstation? I could well be wrong though. But remember that the DirectX version used on the XBox is also customised, with differences from PC DirectX.

LibGCM on Ps3 was most likely first modern low level graphics API. (They had PsGL which was made using LibGCM on ps3, but it wasn't used much.)

Ps4 has a GNM a low level API and a higher level alternative GNMX.
http://develop.scee.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/ParisGC2013Final.pdf

 

[tviceman]

K1 was a great tablet chip that got virtually no market penetration (3 tablets). Tegra X1 looks to be more of the same, with probably even less products it will ship in.

Tegra is more or less becoming an SoC for everything other than consumer devices. Its a shame to see Nvidia continually screwing the pooch with Tegra success. To add insult to injury, the rumors of Mediatek licensing AMD graphics IP - an industry AMD has zero presence in - goes to show that Nvidia either wants too much licensing fees or they have burned too many bridges.

 

[Headfoot]

I've got a Shield Tablet and it's really nice for the money, $300 new. Every time I turn it on it seems I've got a notification that new games are available. Vulkan is going to make not only Android porting more economically feasible, but Linux porting altogether. SteamOS and Android have done quite a lot for the Linux ecosystem here...

 

[NTMBK]

I've got a Shield Tablet and it's really nice for the money, $300 new. Every time I turn it on it seems I've got a notification that new games are available. Vulkan is going to make not only Android porting more economically feasible, but Linux porting altogether. SteamOS and Android have done quite a lot for the Linux ecosystem here...

How do you find ports of "full fat" games on it, like Portal 2? Do they run well?

 

[stahlhart]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=225737

Keep the threads ON TOPIC. Do not derail threads. It would seem the biggest reason for thread derailment is a member getting personal about the opinion of another member.

Discuss the topic, not what you think of a member for having an opinion.

Learn when to say, "When". Agree to disagree. No need for 15 pages of getting nowhere.

-- stahlhart

 

[MeldarthX]

K1 was a great tablet chip that got virtually no market penetration (3 tablets). Tegra X1 looks to be more of the same, with probably even less products it will ship in.

Tegra is more or less becoming an SoC for everything other than consumer devices. Its a shame to see Nvidia continually screwing the pooch with Tegra success. To add insult to injury, the rumors of Mediatek licensing AMD graphics IP - an industry AMD has zero presence in - goes to show that Nvidia either wants too much licensing fees or they have burned too many bridges.

Its all of the above; they burnt a lot of bridges with over promising and under delivery; along with being late with their chips.

their chips came in hot; not as powerful as promised and used more power than promised.

why do you think they said they were abandoning mobile; its because no one wanted their stuff;

Now if they could deliver - but shield console is doa as steam just announced box that will do the same thing for far cheaper.....

 

[tviceman]

I don't think that is it. Tegra ran just fine in the MiPad, Nexus 9, Tegra Note, Xaomi's phone, Shield tablet, etc. No overheating issues at all. And battery life under normal use was always competetive / midle of the road.

I think it basically comes down to being late and/or charging too much.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I think nVidia was just smart enough to see that the mobile space was a dead end competition wise.

They moved for example to the auto entertainment systems. Much better and much more profitable. Why swim with sharks when you can get a pool of your own.