Warp Drive? NASA Thinks Maybe...

[norseamd]

Piss on it all you want.
It's research being conducted. It will work or it won't and the result will be published. I've personally seen the test articles so I can confirm they are using the setup he talks about in the video

Plus as he says in the video the thruster is actually working and they are sending test articles off for further confirmation at other NASA centers.

he seems to think because some science is theoretical that somehow everything is actually impossible with 100% proof

there is some greek philosopher quote where he talks about the populace not understanding anything more than their basic sensual experiences

think it was socrates

 

[MongGrel]

he seems to think because some science is theoretical that somehow everything is actually impossible with 100% proof

there is some greek philosopher quote where he talks about the populace not understanding anything more than their basic sensual experiences

think it was socrates

Somehow, I think you're a bit out of you're league even offering an opinion on this one.

 

[norseamd]

The catch is getting this to work doesn't just mean a more expensive rechargeable battery, it means the ability to mine the moon, planets, it means an end to practically every resource deficiency other than fossil fuels. So there's tons of money to be made off of this if they can get it to work.

there are hydrocarbons by the shit ton

 

[norseamd]

Somehow, I think you're a bit out of you're league even offering an opinion on this one.

no

i can tell by the tone of his opinion

 

[norseamd]

Somehow, I think you're a bit out of you're league even offering an opinion on this one.

Birds have wings and are meant to fly. Yes, it's so trivial that a big hunking mass of metal/wood will be able to fly.

What we humans think is unable to be validated today, may end up being trivial dozens or hundreds of years from now.

Your type of thinking is what would end up hindering human beings from becoming greater than what we currently can achieve today. "Oh well because I can't see it/validate it today, it must not be possible!!"

50 years ago, a computer was the size of a large car or more. Now, it fits in my pocket. Imagine what things could be like another 50, 500, 5000 years from now (if we don't blow ourselves up first...).

what I find funny about this thread is the few who refuse to believe its possible because they cant wrap their limited minds around it.


Not to get P&Nish but these are some of the same people that deny MMCC and evolution.

Its too hard to understand so it cant be real!


intellectual humility would help you out quite a bit Phucheneh

he seems to think because some science is theoretical that somehow everything is actually impossible with 100% proof

there is some greek philosopher quote where he talks about the populace not understanding anything more than their basic sensual experiences

think it was socrates

so are they not qualified to comment on this topic as well

some intellectual 2500 years ago must not even compare to some store employee today right

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Sure nice rant. I even agree with a lot of it.

However you seem to be ignoring that relativity says this effect is possible and our observations of the cosmic background radiation indicates the early universe did it.

So why does that mean we can do? It doesn't!

That's what the small scale lab experiment is for!

It simply means we have reason to believe that it's possible to design an experiment to investigate the phenomenon.

I personally think this is exactly the kind of scientific investigations NASA should be involved in.

I'll agree with some of this, however that the Big Bang happened and it looks like Inflation occurred doesn't really mean anything other than it happened once. Spacetime expanded into more or less nothing, but now this would not be the case. Can't happen? Not saying that, but some others are really reaching for something they desperately want, and that becomes something other than science. By all means do the work, but people need to stop drawing false analogies. The history of physics is that a phenomenon is observed and eventually theories and laws explain processes. If further study shows inconsistencies then refinements or new theories come into play. From Newton to Maxwell to Einstein. Boltzmann, de Broglie, Heisenberg, Pauli, Schroedinger and who knows how many others advanced science not by insisting that something exists out of agenda, but because something wasn't quite right or could not be fully explained. In the case of FTL travel we haven't anything like the photoelectric effect or quanta or unaccountable spectral bands. No cracks in the scientific foundation as it were. Does it make what you hope for impossible? No, that's not for me to say as I haven't enough information or expertise, however others appealing to the "if it isn't forbidden it must be". That's religion, not science. The universe is not compelled to obey our whims.

 

[Paratus]

I'll agree with some of this, however that the Big Bang happened and it looks like Inflation occurred doesn't really mean anything other than it happened once. Spacetime expanded into more or less nothing, but now this would not be the case. Can't happen? Not saying that, but some others are really reaching for something they desperately want, and that becomes something other than science. By all means do the work, but people need to stop drawing false analogies. The history of physics is that a phenomenon is observed and eventually theories and laws explain processes. If further study shows inconsistencies then refinements or new theories come into play. From Newton to Maxwell to Einstein. Boltzmann, de Broglie, Heisenberg, Pauli, Schroedinger and who knows how many others advanced science not by insisting that something exists out of agenda, but because something wasn't quite right or could not be fully explained. In the case of FTL travel we haven't anything like the photoelectric effect or quanta or unaccountable spectral bands. No cracks in the scientific foundation as it were. Does it make what you hope for impossible? No, that's not for me to say as I haven't enough information or expertise, however others appealing to the "if it isn't forbidden it must be". That's religion, not science. The universe is not compelled to obey our whims.

Well I'll also point out that we see the other type of space warp on a daily basis. Normal matter also warps space. I'd also point out that relativity has made predictions that were NOT observed first, such as frame dragging. That one required a ridiculous amount of engineering to observe.

I also was skeptical when I first heard about it. Both projects sounded like BS, but there not. There's a scientific basis for both projects. The amount of money spent on them is minuscule compared to the potential payoff. Even if neither come to fruition they will learn something.

Actually I'm amazed no one is bitching about the Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster. A thruster that doesn't require you to carry propellant sounds vaguely perpetual motionish.

 

[norseamd]

Actually I'm amazed no one is bitching about the Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster. A thruster that doesn't require you to carry propellant sounds vaguely perpetual motionish.

does this use passive or active operation?

does this require electric power

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well I'll also point out that we see the other type of space warp on a daily basis. Normal matter also warps space. I'd also point out that relativity has made predictions that were NOT observed first, such as frame dragging. That one required a ridiculous amount of engineering to observe.

The consequences of the complete theory were not immediately observable, but relativity still came about because observations and theory did not match. It wasn't invented to answer a question which did not exist because of physical observation.

I also was skeptical when I first heard about it. Both projects sounded like BS, but there not. There's a scientific basis for both projects. The amount of money spent on them is minuscule compared to the potential payoff. Even if neither come to fruition they will learn something.

We'll learn something and it may be correct, but that wasn't the point of my mini-rant. It's the concept that it must be right because there isn't anything to say it isn't. That's awfully bad science and the universe is not obliged to grant us wishes. Experimentation is the right way to approach this and I think we are in agreement on this.

Actually I'm amazed no one is bitching about the Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster. A thruster that doesn't require you to carry propellant sounds vaguely perpetual motionish.

If I understand the principle it's similar to the Casimir effect, which has been long established. To me it seems less farfetched although I don't understand how you can extract useful energy from such a system.

 

[Paratus]

does this use passive or active operation?

does this require electric power

It uses electricity to create an electro-magnetic field in such away as to cause a bulk drift in the virtual particles. So particles pop in to existence the field pushes them one way, you go the other way and then they annihilate. So both momentum and energy are conserved.

He explains this in the video.

ISP on this thing is huge. You can keep thrusting as long as you have power.

 

[Paratus]

The consequences of the complete theory were not immediately observable, but relativity still came about because observations and theory did not match. It wasn't invented to answer a question which did not exist because of physical observation. We'll learn something and it may be correct, but that wasn't the point of my mini-rant. It's the concept that it must be right because there isn't anything to say it isn't. That's awfully bad science and the universe is not obliged to grant us wishes. Experimentation is the right way to approach this and I think we are in agreement on this.

If I understand the principle it's similar to the Casimir effect, which has been long established. To me it seems less farfetched although I don't understand how you can extract useful energy from such a system.

We are in agreement on experimentation and I don't have a problem with warning folks not to be over eager or assume it must work.

My excitement is what I said earlier.

There's real math behind it, there's real observations, and there's legitimate work being done to investigate it. Which I think is a first for any FTL theory.

As for the QVPT, your are not extracting energy from the vacuum, but as he says in the video consider the virtual particles like the ocean and the QVTP like a propeller on a sub. The energy comes from the reactor and the propeller transfers the momentum to the ocean.

 

[norseamd]

Actually I'm amazed no one is bitching about the Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster. A thruster that doesn't require you to carry propellant sounds vaguely perpetual motionish.

neither do solar or magnetic sails require any propellent

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As for the QVPT, your are not extracting energy from the vacuum, but as he says in the video consider the virtual particles like the ocean and the QVTP like a propeller on a sub. The energy comes from the reactor and the propeller transfers the momentum to the ocean.

I haven't had time to watch the video but I have found this It does appear to use the Casimir effect

That "ocean" is the vacuum from which virtual particles arise and the mechanism is powered by electricity. That makes more sense to me because energy needs to come from somewhere. If it came from the reactor it couldn't provide more forward force than it produces. The analogy I see is more like an inductive coupling tapping into an incredibly powerful field and extracting energy as a result. Obviously the physical mechanism is different, but the power is out there. It's a matter of how to extract it on an ongoing basis.

 

[Paratus]

neither do solar or magnetic sails require any propellent

Right, but most people understand what it is you are "pushing" against.

I haven't had time to watch the video but I have found this It does appear to use the Casimir effect

That "ocean" is the vacuum from which virtual particles arise and the mechanism is powered by electricity. That makes more sense to me because energy needs to come from somewhere. If it came from the reactor it couldn't provide more forward force than it produces. The analogy I see is more like an inductive coupling tapping into an incredibly powerful field and extracting energy as a result. Obviously the physical mechanism is different, but the power is out there. It's a matter of how to extract it on an ongoing basis.

The energy does come from the reactor in the QVTP design. It's the same with every other plasma thruster as well. If the ship accelerates from V1 to V2 then it gained kinetic energy = .5(M)(V2-V1)^2. The reactor provided that much energy + losses. The energy was carried away by the propellant.

In a normal chemical rocket the energy comes from burning the fuel and oxidizer which is the carried away by the propellant - the exhaust.

So the difference between say a Hall effect thruster and the QVPT is the maximum Kinetic energy in the Hall effect thruster system is limited by the carried propellant. In the QVTP system it's limited by how long your reactor can provide power. Fission reactors can go for decades.

 

[yhelothar]

while true, a lot of mathematical discoveries have led to physical inventions.

relativity was developed because lorentz thought that the equations describing motion and mass should be symmetric.


or something like that. i can't remember the story exactly, but basically some famous scientist said "i don't like the way this equation looks, let me add another term to make it symmetric" and boom - massive scientific advances.

From what I remember, relativity was developed through the discovery that light travels at a constant velocity in all frames of references. The only way for that to happen, Einstein thought, is if time slowed down to accommodate for it.

 

[Anubis]

 

[MagickMan]

Gnarly! I love how much life imitates fiction.

Wouldn't work, the warp bubble would chop the passenger pod clean off.

 

[Ichinisan]

The girl in that video acts like she's hosting a game show or something. Very annoying.

Extremely interesting video, though.

 

[SKORPI0]

Pointless if they won't have inertial dampers. Crew would be dead if/when they had to do a sudden acceleration/stop. ^_^

 

[Ichinisan]

Pointless if they won't have inertial dampers. Crew would be dead if/when they had to do a sudden acceleration/stop. ^_^

No. Watch the video. The ship would maintain its initial velocity inside the warp bubble the entire time.

 

[werepossum]

Thanks, Paratus. Cool stuff. Don't have time for the video, but I read the blog. Also, Engineering.com did an article on the Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster a few years back - it's really cool. Just goes to show that we can get back more energy than we put in as long as we understand how to do so without violating the rules of thermodynamics. Just look at a heat pump.

I don't think we're getting out of our solar system before (or unless) we master gravity which would make the Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster obsolete, but the QVPT would be great to have right now for probes, for which it wouldn't need to be scaled up nearly as much. A faster probe can reach areas of interest more quickly, especially if it continually accelerates, and elimination of reaction mass means more payload and stronger power sources for data transmission. More data, better data, for more time, AND the ability to maneuver.

I agree that this is exactly the kind of science NASA needs to be doing.

 

[DCal430]

One again we have arm chair experts in here who believe they know more than those who have advance degrees in these fields, those who have spent their lives in these fields.

The opinions of these false arm chair experts should be dismissed like the nonsense it is.

 

[DCal430]

seems you know nothing about the alcumbierre drive

Of course he doesn't. He is an arm chair expert, who believes he has the knowledge of countless PhDs. That he is the greatest expert on this planet. Without having any education in these fields he knows more than everyone else.

 

[Jeff7]

And then some centuries into the future we discover that fracking all these particle pairs from the quantum vacuum was eroding a tear into subspace, and we accidentally break physics across a few cubic light years. Then Q pops in to enjoy the show.

Thanks, Paratus. Cool stuff. Don't have time for the video, but I read the blog. Also, Engineering.com did an article on the Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster a few years back - it's really cool. Just goes to show that we can get back more energy than we put in as long as we understand how to do so without violating the rules of thermodynamics. Just look at a heat pump.

I don't think we're getting out of our solar system before (or unless) we master gravity which would make the Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster obsolete, but the QVPT would be great to have right now for probes, for which it wouldn't need to be scaled up nearly as much. A faster probe can reach areas of interest more quickly, especially if it continually accelerates, and elimination of reaction mass means more payload and stronger power sources for data transmission. More data, better data, for more time, AND the ability to maneuver.

I agree that this is exactly the kind of science NASA needs to be doing.

Heat pumps. Bleh.

It makes part of my head hurt whenever I see those quoted efficiencies that are greater than 100%.
">100% efficiency? Right, and just think of how much work I could extract from a garden hose after exerting the minimal effort of turning the valve."


The QVPT sounds vaguely similar - it's just that turning on the virtual particle valve is particularly difficult.

 

[Paratus]

And then some centuries into the future we discover that fracking all these particle pairs from the quantum vacuum was eroding a tear into subspace, and we accidentally break physics across a few cubic light years. Then Q pops in to enjoy the show.




Heat pumps. Bleh.

It makes part of my head hurt whenever I see those quoted efficiencies that are greater than 100%.
">100% efficiency? Right, and just think of how much work I could extract from a garden hose after exerting the minimal effort of turning the valve."


The QVPT sounds vaguely similar - it's just that turning on the virtual particle valve is particularly difficult.

While I don't really understand how the are doing it, I have some idea what they are doing.

Basically the thruster "densifies" the vacuum from ~10^-26 kg/m^3 to something several orders of magnitude higher and then uses that as the working fluid or propellant. This is similar to how the two uncharged plates in the Casmir effect can feel significant pressure.

All energy for the system must come from the power source for the thruster. So no thermodynamic violations. Just supper high ISP.