What brought down WTC7

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Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: LunarRay
So if I've got this right, using my words, you are saying: There was an elimination of structure below the top 105 feet that was at least 105 feet and that bit did not provide any resistance to the 'block' [from the roof down 105'] of WTC 7 that did fall 105 feet at the free fall speed?
Pretty much, though the 105 feet which was taken out was well more than 105 feet down from the top, as the videos of the collapse show considerably more than that intact.
You show your ignorance once again. That 105' was missing was on the interior, not the exterior, so you wouldn't have been able to see the missing portion in your YouTube videos. I already explained this to you previously but like so many facts you've been told about this issue already, you just ignored it.

The interior columns handled the gravity load. The exterior columns were for the lateral loads. Once the interior columns collapsed the exterior columns could not handle the stresses from the gravity load transfered to them. They failed and the exterior of WTC7 followed the interior and collapsed. Since all that was left were the exterior columns, columns that were never designed for gravity loads, the building came right down.

btw, for those that have been mislead by the whines of the truthers that NIST didn't consider any alternative scenarios, I invite you to peruse the following:

http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201A.pdf

Section 3.3 is title "Hypothetical Blast Scenarios" and it details the considerations and models that NIST used to test for the potential of demolitions being involved. So don't be sucked in by the truther lies.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
Well... that fellow Barry Jenkins said he heard explosions and challenged the story line which got change to be more in line with him and the City Corp attorney guy who was with him... I think. link

He was deposed? Made those statements under oath? Cross examined?
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Well... that fellow Barry Jenkins said he heard explosions and challenged the story line which got change to be more in line with him and the City Corp attorney guy who was with him... I think. link

He was deposed? Made those statements under oath? Cross examined?
He has made many statements, many conflicting with his original statements:

http://forums.randi.org/showth...4bfcda9e4bb11&t=116661

The guy apparently likes to embellish his experiences.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Well... that fellow Barry Jenkins said he heard explosions and challenged the story line which got change to be more in line with him and the City Corp attorney guy who was with him... I think. link

He was deposed? Made those statements under oath? Cross examined?

In the now 8 years since 9/11, the fucknut troothers haven't been able to find ONE SINGLE WITNESS that supports ANY of their assertions.

That above is the criteria I was trying to be helpful with. Given there was no legal forum for such criteria as you ask and not knowing of any forum within which such 'testimony' would be required under oath I'd have to say no. But, I'd expect him to have 'testified' consistent with the video of him describing the events. I'd further expect impeachment of his statements could have been developed by the fire fighters who were involved in his rescue.
In any event, you asked and I think I've provided but you can disregard his video if you'd like since he's dead now and can't confirm or deny his status vis a vis The Alchemize Reliable Evidence Standard (ARES) In other words Ares it any good?

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Well... that fellow Barry Jenkins said he heard explosions and challenged the story line which got change to be more in line with him and the City Corp attorney guy who was with him... I think. link

He was deposed? Made those statements under oath? Cross examined?
He has made many statements, many conflicting with his original statements:

http://forums.randi.org/showth...4bfcda9e4bb11&t=116661

The guy apparently likes to embellish his experiences.

Yeah... Memory do that. If I were there I'd have not only fought the fires but looked for and aided folks to evacuate... I'd have made me a hero.. But, being a coward I'd have been at my sister's house drinking Pepsi and eating chocolate donuts.
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,809
13
0
BBC reported WTC7 came down before it actually did:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/the...of_the_conspiracy.html

"We no longer have the original tapes of our 9/11 coverage (for reasons of cock-up, not conspiracy)" lol.. how convenient that they lost the footage.

FOX news reported it 24 minutes before it came down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrEl4Lxok0Y

Rudy Giuliani told Peter Jennings in an ABC interview that he was given an advance warning that WTC-7 was about to come down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vCg8Fp8aw8

then later denies it.


The official 9-11 Commission Report does not even mention WTC-7 at all.



Footage of WTC7 going down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQeQi5XXfz0


Way too many loopholes for the biggest crimes committed on US soil. Someone definitely has some info to hide. Best site I found so far outlining some info on WTC7
take it all with a grain of salt.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
There is worldwide consensus that there was no foul play in any of the WTC center collapses.
Rather, there is No consensus on who was behind Sept 11: global poll, but of course such facts mean nothing to a falser like yourself.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The structural did not need to be pushed out of the way. It was falling too.
Obviously, because some yet to be identified force threw out that 105 foot section of the structure. Had it not been for that yet to be explained force, the structure would have had to have been pushed out of the way.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I told you that gravity acts everywhere.
Sure, but you haven't told me anything I didn't already know, except the nonsense floating around in your head which has no basis in reality.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
That 105' was missing was on the interior, not the exterior, so you wouldn't have been able to see the missing portion in your YouTube videos. I already explained this to you previously but like so many facts you've been told about this issue already, you just ignored it.
I had already mentioned the fact that core columns went first, well before you made your inane argument suggesting I was unaware of this:

Originally posted by: kylebisme
Rather, the building started sagging in towards the middle because the interior columns were taken out first, and when the perimeter columns were taken out the building dropped at free free fall for 105 feet because all off the support was removed.
But you can't even demonstrate enough intellect to acknowledge what I've said, so I see no point in responding to you further.

For everyone else, again; the official story is physically impossible. No one can simulate it while respecting the laws of physics. If you choose to believe the official story of how WTC7 came down, you are holding to a position of faith in contradiction to demonstrable physical reality.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
There is worldwide consensus that there was no foul play in any of the WTC center collapses.
Rather, there is No consensus on who was behind Sept 11: global poll, but of course such facts mean nothing to a falser like yourself.
:roll:

There is a consensus among experts in building demolition and disasters that the official story of what happened on Sept 11th is generally correct. What you will find is that there are people who disagree about minutiae, however they all operate within the same framework: that planes and nothing else brought down the WTC.


For everyone else, again; the official story is physically impossible. No one can simulate it while respecting the laws of physics. If you choose to believe the official story of how WTC7 came down, you are holding to a position of faith in contradiction to demonstrable physical reality.

So now you're telling us that the government, or whoever pulled off 9/11, couldn't even get together a plausible cover story? Jesus christ man, you are so blinded to the bigger picture, namely the motherfucking mountain of evidence that supports the fact that nobody but a bunch of lonely terrorists flew planes into buildings and killed people.

Instead of taking a chance to step back and examine everything as a whole, you've broken out one of the instances of weird shit happening and now made a mountain out of a molehill. Nobody has ever seen a skyscraper disaster on the scale of 9/11, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that there are things that are hard to believe.

Despite your verbose ramblings, you've proven nothing except that you are doggedly clinging to your beliefs despite numerous rebuttals.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
That 105' was missing was on the interior, not the exterior, so you wouldn't have been able to see the missing portion in your YouTube videos. I already explained this to you previously but like so many facts you've been told about this issue already, you just ignored it.
I had already mentioned the fact that the core columns went first, well before you made your inane argument suggesting I was unaware of this:

Originally posted by: kylebisme
Rather, the building started sagging in towards the middle because the interior columns were taken out first, and when the perimeter columns were taken out the building dropped at free free fall for 105 feet because all off the support was removed.
But you can't even demonstrate enough intellect to acknowledge what I've said, so I see no point in responding to you further.
Allow me to refresh your faulty memory:

"Pretty much, though the 105 feet which was taken out was well more than 105 feet down from the top, as the videos of the collapse show considerably more than that intact."

You can't seem to keep your story straight. Either that, or you don't grasp the technical aspects of what happened. I tend to believe it's a combination of the two.

For everyone else, again; the official story is physically impossible. No one can simulate it while respecting the laws of physics. If you choose to believe the official story of how WTC7 came down, you are holding to a position of faith in contradiction to demonstrable physical reality.
"For everyone else..."

Hahahahahaha. You mean for YOU. Most others in here are far, far more well versed in physics in comparison to you and understand exactly why your claims are ignorant. NIST has modeled the collapse exactly as they described, using standard physics, as have other actual experts, and the results precisely reflect what happened to WTC7 on 9/11. You're making another windy claim that can easily be debunked with facts.

Stop the stupid already. You're really burying yourself deep in this thread and you don't even seem to recognize that fact. It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: SandEagle
BBC reported WTC7 came down before it actually did:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/the...of_the_conspiracy.html

"We no longer have the original tapes of our 9/11 coverage (for reasons of cock-up, not conspiracy)" lol.. how convenient that they lost the footage.
You even link to the BBC calling you a fucking tool :laugh:

What would the BBC reporting WTC7 coming down earlier than it did prove? That the BBC was involved in the conspiracy but fucked up so badly that they occidentally let the cat out of the bag?

The mental gymnastics involved in this thread are astounding.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Section 3.3 is title "Hypothetical Blast Scenarios" and it details the considerations and models that NIST used to test for the potential of demolitions being involved. So don't be sucked in by the truther lies.

I like that link... and that section you advised.. I've a question though. They speak to explosive stuff and window breaking and like that... I've an experience that sorta sticks in my mind...

On Oct. 26, 1966 on board Oriskany a parachute flair went off and so did the rest in the locker.. not much noise really lots of hissing and such... but that magnesium burned throught that steel like it was butter... almost sunk the ship. Is there such stuff now or in '01 that was like that? IF so should they have included that type of cutting substance?

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: SandEagle
BBC reported WTC7 came down before it actually did:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/the...of_the_conspiracy.html

"We no longer have the original tapes of our 9/11 coverage (for reasons of cock-up, not conspiracy)" lol.. how convenient that they lost the footage.
You even link to the BBC calling you a fucking tool :laugh:

But does it meet the ARES? I saw that video too... I cracked up.. thought they meant another building cuz I thought I saw it in the back ground.. I knew that building... How do you think they got the word on that. I think they sucked feed from a comment about it being 'pulled'... ?

 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Hey friend,

Okay, here are some easy questions for you. #4 is most pertinent to our conversation right now.

1) If planes did not bring down the WTC, what did? How did it get there? A controlled demolition on the scale required by the WTC would have required thousands of pounds of explosives, miles (miles!) of detonation cord, and months of preparation. Have you ever seen videos of buildings when they're wired to come down? There is wire and explosives everywhere. In the WTC there was nothing. I hate to break it to you, but it would be nearly impossible for all of that stuff to be hidden.

2) What exactly blew up the building? Thermite? Thermite doesn't explode and, if this was a controlled demolition, why didn't the terrorists or whoever use real explosives rather than relying on something that has never been used to demolish a building before?

3) Who exactly was involved? At first glance, any sort of conspiracy greater than the planes implicates at least hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Knowledge of demolition, especially on the scale required to bring down the WTC is a rare commodity and would have been done by an expert. Again, that doesn't make it an impossibility, but if the "government" is involved are you accusing the NIST, FEMA, the military, the president, FDNY, the thousands of experts (both government and employed and not) who have independently concluded that the government is right, the NYPD, the hijackers, etc? Really? 21 guys versus thousands?

4) If the government is going to blow up a building, why do they concoct a complicated plan that involves hijacking a plane and slamming it into the building? There is WAAAY too much that could go wrong. What if the hijackers fail to take control of the plane? What if the plane misses the building? Why would they not make the cover story easier -- terrorists snuck truckloads of explosives into the building and blew it up? I mean, we already had an attack on the WTC which was exactly that, why not replicate it? PLUS, if you're going to go to the trouble of hijacking planes and slamming them into the building, why bother planting explosives? Why not load the planes with explosives? Why are there two high-risk operations being conducted simultaneously? This makes zero sense.

In the case of WTC7, why not hijack a 4th plane and hit it with that? If the government's intention was to make everyone believe that the planes brought down the WTC buildings, why leave #7 out? As you point out, it IS the most mysterious because, outside of falling rubble, it was not actually hit by anything. So... if you're planning this thing, why would you not simply hit the motherfucker with a plane, removing any doubt about why it came down? Why even make this a question? After planning such a massive operation, I don't see how the government could overlook something so simple as "oh, yeah we forgot to hit WTC 7 with anything, but we'll take it down with explosives... nobody will ask questions!"

5) Finally, I would ask you to simply outline a coherent theory about what happened on 9/11. The beauty of the true story is that it is a complete story. We know who was where and when. We know what they did, why they did it, and when they did it. Conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 are laughable because they aren't theories at all, they simply try to insert shadowy agents and figures into the gaps in our knowledge, they attack what they can and ignore the mountain of evidence that they cannot disprove. When one element of their charade is disproved, they simply flash to the next. We've seen this over and over again, so all I ask is that you explain to us who did it and why. Please. Once you attempt to do this, you'll realize that there is no coherence to your theory and that it's not a theory at all.

Well expressed and well written!
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Section 3.3 is title "Hypothetical Blast Scenarios" and it details the considerations and models that NIST used to test for the potential of demolitions being involved. So don't be sucked in by the truther lies.

I like that link... and that section you advised.. I've a question though. They speak to explosive stuff and window breaking and like that... I've an experience that sorta sticks in my mind...

On Oct. 26, 1966 on board Oriskany a parachute flair went off and so did the rest in the locker.. not much noise really lots of hissing and such... but that magnesium burned throught that steel like it was butter... almost sunk the ship. Is there such stuff now or in '01 that was like that? IF so should they have included that type of cutting substance?
To include that type of substance in the report it would have to be reasonable to consider such a scenario in the first place. Magnesium, thermite, thermate and the rest were not reasonable to consider anymore than contemplating, as I mentioned previously in this thread, that aliens brought it down or a herd of elephants stomped it into the ground. There are logistical issues that prevent such scenarios as valid considerations which is why they can easily be dismissed.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Section 3.3 is title "Hypothetical Blast Scenarios" and it details the considerations and models that NIST used to test for the potential of demolitions being involved. So don't be sucked in by the truther lies.

I like that link... and that section you advised.. I've a question though. They speak to explosive stuff and window breaking and like that... I've an experience that sorta sticks in my mind...

On Oct. 26, 1966 on board Oriskany a parachute flair went off and so did the rest in the locker.. not much noise really lots of hissing and such... but that magnesium burned throught that steel like it was butter... almost sunk the ship. Is there such stuff now or in '01 that was like that? IF so should they have included that type of cutting substance?
To include that type of substance in the report it would have to be reasonable to consider such a scenario in the first place. Magnesium, thermite, thermate and the rest were not reasonable to consider anymore than contemplating, as I mentioned previously in this thread, that aliens brought it down or a herd of elephants stomped it into the ground. There are logistical issues that prevent such scenarios as valid considerations which is why they can easily be dismissed.

Ok, sounds good to me. I figured if that magnesium would cut the hanger bay steel floor and 4 decks down it or something like it should be considered...
The bit about broken windows is quite telling for me... no evidence of broken windows.. no explosion... imo.
EDIT: no explosion big enough to do the job and they tried two size of explosions... baby one and big one... 10 times the volume of being in front of a rock concert speaker... omg... I can't stand being in the same city.

 

Sclamoz

Guest
Sep 9, 2009
975
0
0
Originally posted by: kylebisme


For everyone else, again; the official story is physically impossible. No one can simulate it while respecting the laws of physics. If you choose to believe the official story of how WTC7 came down, you are holding to a position of faith in contradiction to demonstrable physical reality.

http://www.nist.gov/public_aff...videos/wtc_videos.html


Hey look, some people simulated and explained what happened to WTC7. Imagine that.


 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Sclamoz
Originally posted by: kylebisme


For everyone else, again; the official story is physically impossible. No one can simulate it while respecting the laws of physics. If you choose to believe the official story of how WTC7 came down, you are holding to a position of faith in contradiction to demonstrable physical reality.

http://www.nist.gov/public_aff...videos/wtc_videos.html


Hey look, some people simulated and explained what happened to WTC7. Imagine that.

Assuming your link meets ARES criteria, I'd wonder how folks would react if that was the CT proffer and the Official Version was that 100 tons of nano-thermite was trucked into the basements of the towers and '7' and melted the core foundations? I just saw an April '09 video of a guy representing some 8 scientists who say they found nano-thermite in the WTC dust... is why I ask.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,111
6,610
126
Originally posted by: Sclamoz
Originally posted by: kylebisme


For everyone else, again; the official story is physically impossible. No one can simulate it while respecting the laws of physics. If you choose to believe the official story of how WTC7 came down, you are holding to a position of faith in contradiction to demonstrable physical reality.

http://www.nist.gov/public_aff...videos/wtc_videos.html


Hey look, some people simulated and explained what happened to WTC7. Imagine that.

And the real video of the event looks just like the simulation with damage from debris from the towers.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Sclamoz
Originally posted by: kylebisme


For everyone else, again; the official story is physically impossible. No one can simulate it while respecting the laws of physics. If you choose to believe the official story of how WTC7 came down, you are holding to a position of faith in contradiction to demonstrable physical reality.

http://www.nist.gov/public_aff...videos/wtc_videos.html


Hey look, some people simulated and explained what happened to WTC7. Imagine that.

And the real video of the event looks just like the simulation with damage from debris from the towers.

heheheeh It would have been sorta dumb to make a video simulation that did not mimic the actual video... hehehehe we'd all have laughed and stuff... but the inside of the building is where all the interesting bits lived... can't see them. I like TLC's Elephant version best.

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
BeauJangles,
3) Who exactly was involved? At first glance, any sort of conspiracy greater than the planes implicates at least hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Knowledge of demolition, especially on the scale required to bring down the WTC is a rare commodity and would have been done by an expert. Again, that doesn't make it an impossibility, but if the "government" is involved are you accusing the NIST, FEMA, the military, the president, FDNY, the thousands of experts (both government and employed and not) who have independently concluded that the government is right, the NYPD, the hijackers, etc? Really? 21 guys versus thousands?

The only answer to that question is that there had to be a third element. You've the government fat dumb and happy, the Terrorist folks and the actual 'land' perpetrators...

I am NOT saying I believe this!!! I am NOT saying I believe this...

They'd have to have knowledge of the plans of AQ, including targets. BUT to what end? What possible motive could anyone have to do what happened? I can think of a few but that is pure speculation.
They could have moved 'stuff' into the basements ok.. but not into the buildings proper with out someone seeing it... WTC 7 had all manner of investigators who'd ask whatchu up to... I think Tower 1 had some too... I think that is the only way your #3 could be done.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,058
32,316
136
To understand why things went down the way they did you need to understand that the annual meeting of the International Assn of Bowling Pageant Consultants (IABPC) was taking place on the fifth floor of WTC7. The meeting was scheduled from 9/09 - 9/11, breaking up at noon. A ballsy bunch, those folks carry a lot of weight in the fashion world.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I just saw an April '09 video of a guy representing some 8 scientists who say they found nano-thermite in the WTC dust... is why I ask.

Don't believe everything (anything) you see on Youtube.

Most of these videos refuse to mention any actual scientists involved in the studies. If they do mention some, they often are referenced without consent (namely, some guys slapped their name on it), their work is taken out of context, or they're simply one of a very small number of scientists who support truther views.

Despite their extensive "analysis" none of these videos can prove that the materials they're analyzing actually came from the WTC. We're often TOLD that they were found nearby or some such nonsense, but that doesn't mean that they're telling the truth and it's nothing to base overturning the mountains of evidence we have on.

Finally, many of these people approach the subject with an agenda... they WANT to find something that proves the NIST report wrong. That colors people views, makes for sloppy research, and leads to mistakes. It's called confirmation bias and it can affect even the best researchers.



 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,058
32,316
136
Thermite reaction:
Fe2O3 + 2Al ? 2Fe + Al2O3 + heat

They found iron and aluminum oxide or aluminum and iron oxide in the debris of a steel frame office building? Holy cow! That's like finding plastic bags in the bushes around a Walmart parking lot.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Don't believe everything (anything) you see on Youtube.

Most of these videos refuse to mention any actual scientists involved in the studies. If they do mention some, they often are referenced without consent (namely, some guys slapped their name on it), their work is taken out of context, or they're simply one of a very small number of scientists who support truther views.

Despite their extensive "analysis" none of these videos can prove that the materials they're analyzing actually came from the WTC. We're often TOLD that they were found nearby or some such nonsense, but that doesn't mean that they're telling the truth and it's nothing to base overturning the mountains of evidence we have on.

Finally, many of these people approach the subject with an agenda... they WANT to find something that proves the NIST report wrong. That colors people views, makes for sloppy research, and leads to mistakes. It's called confirmation bias and it can affect even the best researchers.

this is the danish scientist.. it has subtitles cuz it is in danish... I love bear claws so I watched it

The only horse I've in this race now is to eliminate only the impossible... TLC's elephants for instance... poof they're gone.. I sorta gave up that someone could have started the 11-13 floor fires at SEC for reasons known to them because even if true I can't prove it without them fessing up... so I put that in the improbable file... I also don't have the basics to know what went on inside WTC 7 during and before the collapse but others do... and I listen with interest to all of it... reject nothing until I can... Don't mean I'm a CT or a Official supporter.. but a bored, retired with nothing else to do some what reasonably sentient being.
 
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