What flavor for home server?

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Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
That is not true. udev is the following and it is taken directly from udev's site.

"Udev provides a dynamic /dev directory, and hooks userspace into kernel device events."

The kernel has the autodetectoin. Also there is dbus and hal to enhance the autodetection. The /sys directory is the main area where devices are shown, but they are not easy to use. udev is used to provide backwards compatibility and translates what it reads in /sys into human device nodes. Basically like syslog, udev listens to kernel events and fills up /dev.

It's possible that udev doesn't do the module loading itself and that it's a function of the initramfs scripts, I haven't been following lkml lately. But the kernel doesn't load modules. If you've got the drivers built in statically, then yes it'll initialize them with the rest of the kernel but that's non-standard these days.

Sure I can, but try telling a novice user to do that during the installation process and the user say huh. The Ubuntu installer or any distributions designed for novice Linux user should be require to include an option select either labels or UUID. I can not recommend Ubuntu to novice users because of this problem. Sabayon is better at this although their installation requires a DVD disc.

I never said tell a novice user to do that, I told you to do that because you don't like UUIDs. Most users will just let Ubuntu use UUIDs and have no problems. While I like options, I don't see the problem. Ubuntu decided that UUIDs make the most sense for them. If you don't like it you can always change it after the fact with very little work. But UUIDs work just fine despite your statement to the contrary.

Gentoo includes aids to do the steps of compiling. It still gives you what the developer provides for the desire program that you are installing. In Debian the steps to compile are proprietary. It requires additional attention to compile the program. Gentoo does not because it complies to BSD rules of compiling which are ./configure && make && make install. Debian requires make depend before make. That is proprietary.

I don't think the term proprietary means what you think it means.

Not all Debian packages build in the same manner so saying 'Debian requires make depend before make.' is a flat out lie. And if you use dpkg-buildpackage, like you're supposed to, you don't have to worry about each package's individual build steps. And that even assumes that you're building a Debian package from the source code, if you just want to build the code from upstream with autoconf and make you can do that just fine as well, nothing's stopping you from mucking up your system that way.

And once again, none of it is proprietary. It's all completely open source, not restricted by any trademarks or copyrights and can be used by anyone who wants.

USE flags does not change the compilation rules. They enforce what is require or in your cast to be consistent. Sure I can use LFS, but it takes more work because I have to figure out what library to install first and what will come second and so forth before a desire program to be installed. Then I have to list the capable features for each program by doing ./configure --help. Not all programs uses the names for each version they include in the program. Gentoo does all these checks, but they do checks on all dependencies and reverse dependencies then creates a list in chronological order based on what has the fewest dependencies and what has the longest dependencies.

They most certainly do change the compilation rules. You pick whether ALSA, GTK, etc is enabled in the build and thus the binary and it's dependencies are different. And Gentoo's ebuilds support 3rd party patches, http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Writing_Ebuilds#Adding_a_patch so I guarantee there's at least 1 package in there that's not 100% identical to upstream as you seem to think.

Last time I checked Gentoo's package manager (term used very lightly) didn't check dependencies on removal which in my mind makes it completely worthless.

Yes they are called ebuilds. ebuilds are recipes or scripts to do the installation process. To install a program, emerge is used. To output a binary, you include -k on the same line to create a binary as you are installing. revdep-rebuild is used to double check the linking of libraries to the main program. If a library is re-installed or upgraded with different features, the program that relies on it will not load or will crash.

I.e. it's an ugly hack required because they don't have a real package management system. If I install an updated package that requires newer versions of it's dependencies those dependencies should be updated as well. Doing otherwise is just plain stupid.

I rarely do software upgrades when it upgrades software that are valuable to how my setup works. My coreutils is 7.5-r1 and why does it matter. It does not matter. I never seen any problem relating to coreutils. All problems I have seen is when people uses the latest software release and/or improper settings with the config files. Gentoo goes with what is stable for production systems. Then you compare to me based on your unstable release.

I just picked coreutils because it's something I knew you had to have installed. The fact that you're adverse to upgrading further enforces that Gentoo's package management is crap. Minor updates like that should be stupid simple to install, like they are in Debian. Gentoo and stable are virtually antonyms.

I choose to run sid/unstable on my workstations because it's a rolling release and I never have to worry about major upgrades. I install whatever updates are available every few days and I always have the latest packages available. Obviously, For a server I would run stable and only apply security updates.

BTW, I suggested something that could be used for a server, but everybody here went on their high horse and bitched. It seems in this forum that everybody does this to every new comer. It shows how congested and cruel the computer industry is, so this one of the reason why I am not in it.

Because it was probably the worst suggestion possible. Gentoo's only real use is as an example of what not to do with a Linux distribution.

None of my posts were directed at you personally or even cruel, but if you can't take some criticism and debate it's probably a good thing that you're not in the computer industry.
 

Evadman

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Feb 18, 2001
30,990
5
81
Tip-toe around the "Lifers/Elites" - never mock a mod or admin - be prepared to prove your declarations - and you'll do just fine... :sneaky:

Don't make me kill you.
 

uOpt

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2004
1,628
0
0
Debian. It's by far the most solid when it comes to keeping your system working through updates.

For your application FreeBSD might also be worth a look. With ZFS you'll get transparent compression and snapshots. Who knows how long you'll have to wait for BTRFS and whether you are one of the first penguins to lose your data.
 

Headcase_Fargone

Senior member
Nov 20, 2009
388
0
0
Update: I've settled on Ubuntu for now. I've been running it for the past few weeks with nary an issue. It's running just fine on my little Atom with a CF card for a primary HD.

I've installed Ramlog and it appears to be working, but I'm wondering if there's a utility out there that will measure how often my drive is being written to now. Either by the OS or anything else. Does such a utility exist?
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,163
514
126
Well, it depends on what you want to do. Even with CentOS, you need to really know how to properly setup security on the system, otherwise you WILL get root'ed. As much as it pains me to say it, OpenBSD is probably the best for someone who doesn't know security.
 

Headcase_Fargone

Senior member
Nov 20, 2009
388
0
0
Hrm, iostat is showing 4.38 blocks (or 2.21kb) written to my disk per second. That seems high considering I'm using Ramlog (which shows as running) and the noatime switch in fstab to prevent date modified updates of files.

Any other suggestions for getting writes down? I don't want to have to replace this CF card every few months...
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,163
514
126
Hrm, iostat is showing 4.38 blocks (or 2.21kb) written to my disk per second. That seems high considering I'm using Ramlog (which shows as running) and the noatime switch in fstab to prevent date modified updates of files.

Any other suggestions for getting writes down? I don't want to have to replace this CF card every few months...

Switch to a distro built to run from CD/DVD, copy it to the CF card, install grub, possibly modify the initrc script to not auto-detect the OS partition being on a read/write media, and force the "ro" mount options of the CF card. I did this to DSL linux a few years back without issue. So shouldn't be too hard today (possibly even easier or done for you out of the box now).
 

LCTSI

Member
Aug 17, 2010
93
0
66
Where do I begin?

3) OpenSolaris is a pain. It is. For a home server, there are plenty of better options. ZFS is not the end-all-be-all filesystem. And it's not worth trying to get all the packages you want onto it. Debian and Ubuntu have some of the best repositories when it comes to having packages.
OpenSolaris isn't bad. He might try NexentaCore or NexentaStor if he really wants ZFS. ZFS is really worth it.

4) Stay away from soft-raid. PERIOD. If you want RAID, get a "cheap" LSI/Intel/HighPoint hardware RAID card and do a RAID 5. RAID 5 with 3 disks is a distributed parity with a 1-disk failure tolerance. It's space efficient (compared to RAID 1/10) and it has decent fault tolerance.
This I disagree with. It's a home server, his I/O usage won't need the dedicated hardware. He said his use pattern would be primarily reads. The portability of the drives with ZFS/mdadm/LVM far outweighs any write performance hit you might take in a home environment. I know the guy has an Atom... realistically he could get a power-sipping AMD Athlon X2 and motherboard for the $150 price of a hardware RAID controller.

5) Where do you get 2GB of logs in a few minutes? Logs are PLAIN TEXT. In an enterprise web server, I have logs from September 2009 until today, and the logs are only 9GB. I don't know how you could get 2GB of plain text that quickly. My dev server, for it's entire lifetime of a few years, only has 500MB of logs. My network gateway may have a few GB but that's only because it stores network bandwidth usage for every second for as long as I run it. Logs are not an issue for a HOME SERVER.
Depends on the debugging level. In an enterprise mail server, my logs from today so far (8 hours) are 320MB.
 

LCTSI

Member
Aug 17, 2010
93
0
66
if you run deb, you can install the package 'flashybrid'. It loads stuff to ramdisks on boot, and overlays that on the flash. syncs on demand or at shutdown, so that things aren't incessantly tapping at the flash.

I used something similar openBSD based once, I believe this was it, if you're into that.
http://www.nmedia.net/flashrd/
OpenBSD is rather picky about it's friends though, so you might have trouble with it. Debian is definitely easier. Flashybrid might exist in lameass ubuntu also.

Thanks for the link, that looks awesome.


There's a way to cap the size of the logs though? That would solve that problem nicely. This machine will have 2GB of RAM, so I figure 500MB for logs should be sufficient, yeah?

in `man logrotate` there are entries on how to cap sizes.
Then you could set logrotate.d to run hourly in cron.
But you could always send the syslog to the hard disks and not to the flash... now there's a thought.

Update: I've settled on Ubuntu for now. I've been running it for the past few weeks with nary an issue. It's running just fine on my little Atom with a CF card for a primary HD.

I've installed Ramlog and it appears to be working, but I'm wondering if there's a utility out there that will measure how often my drive is being written to now. Either by the OS or anything else. Does such a utility exist?

as others have said, iostat is the one.
check the man page to make sure you get all the options you want on it.


did you use ext4 on the flash drive?
 

Headcase_Fargone

Senior member
Nov 20, 2009
388
0
0
EXT4, yes. I'm currently using Ramlog and it has definitely decreased the writes to the flash card. I'll take a look at logrotate too. Thanks for the suggestion.
 

LCTSI

Member
Aug 17, 2010
93
0
66
EXT4, yes. I'm currently using Ramlog and it has definitely decreased the writes to the flash card. I'll take a look at logrotate too. Thanks for the suggestion.

I would disable journaling on EXT4, given that it's a CF card.

CF cards don't have quite the wear-leveling that newer eSATA SSDs do.
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
6
91
4) Stay away from soft-raid. PERIOD. If you want RAID, get a "cheap" LSI/Intel/HighPoint hardware RAID card and do a RAID 5. RAID 5 with 3 disks is a distributed parity with a 1-disk failure tolerance. It's space efficient (compared to RAID 1/10) and it has decent fault tolerance.

I totally disagree with this. I've happily used mdadm+LVM on a storage volume at work without issue. In fact, when the system died (PSU failure took the mobo) it was trivial work to import the volume to the new system (which possessed a different controller).

I'd actually say "cheap" RAID cards have a higher chance of failing irrecoverably than RAID via mdadm+LVM. Plus it's easy to schedule cron to monitor mdadm and email alerts when needed.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
I totally disagree with this. I've happily used mdadm+LVM on a storage volume at work without issue. In fact, when the system died (PSU failure took the mobo) it was trivial work to import the volume to the new system (which possessed a different controller).

I'd actually say "cheap" RAID cards have a higher chance of failing irrecoverably than RAID via mdadm+LVM. Plus it's easy to schedule cron to monitor mdadm and email alerts when needed.

Agreed. The only real problem with "imports" like that is when you have conflicting vg or lv names.
 
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