Actually for the average home computer user that wants to do internet, email, games, etc. yes, they would be stupid to buy a Sun or Mac.
Originally posted by: jhu
Originally posted by: dkozloski
A MAC is a computerlike device for the dimwitted.
hmm... i guess sun computers are also computer-like devices for dimwitted since they have an ugly user interface, don't have games, and are way too expensive.
Originally posted by: deathkoba
Yea yea, keep coming up with stupid excuses. Macs are used by PROFESSIONALS, not some PEECEE WEENIE GAMING DORK. Get a life, get a Mac.
Originally posted by: xxsk8er101xx
This is an ethusiest forum. Where people like to be geeks and learn how to hack their computer, program things, and play games and hack them. Also hack movies to copy them and whatever else. The PC has a lot of freedom to do what developers and software engineers enjoy doing. Making this thing do what they want.
Macs are limited to the non developers and the non ethusiest.
That's the difference. You will never see a developer start off with a mac. PC's are cheaper first of all and you learn a lot more when you build one yourself. you can also program it with various programming tools. Macs has very little development tools. Not sure why but i can only think that maybe a mac is just difficult to program in.
so
PC's = Developer/Ethusiest/gamers (who become developers eventually)
Macs = Users who can't get that blinking 12:00 to stop
Originally posted by: deathkoba
Well actually, the majority of Mac users are pros making serious big bucks while it's the opposite with PeeCees. Mainly because they're (PeeCees) only good for (crash prone) gaming, fiddling around with hardware and running maybe a few buggy business software that doesn't work most of the time due to viruses and malware. I don't even get why PeeCee WeeNies bother gaming on their PeeCees because a console is so much better in every aspect. Plug and play unlike Windoze Plug N PRAY.
"PeeCees" will beat your mac at almost anything for 1/2 the price. Debate over.
Originally posted by: dkozloski
A MAC is a computerlike device for the dimwitted.
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Those with a true utter loathing of Macs likely spent a long time using them. I spent about a decade with Macs as my primary platform(was running Apple][s mainly before that for a while too) and really you can't properly appreciate how badly they sucked compared to PCs unless you were forced to use one for a while(or were ignorant enough to believe the BS). Every OS Apple had prior to OSX was extremely crash prone- certainly far worse then Win9x when pushed. An app went down your OS was going down with nigh certainty. Memory management was left up to you- having to manually assign applications an amount of RAM they were allowed to utilize. Moving over to the PC it took me a while to get used to it, but since escaping from the slums of technology(OS9 and earlier) I regularly have a dozen apps open and don't really give a thought to using more- this was not viable on earlier Mac OSs.
Their hardware is poorly made and insanely overpriced, and they lie to their customers. For a time Apple was selling Macs with a 'lifetime' warranty only to change their mind in a couple of years when they were faced with massive amounts of failing hardware and for a time refused to honor their warranty(it took a court case to get them to do what they promised they would). The original iMacs more recently suffered massive failure rates on their 'Analog boards' and frequently need to have them replaced running owners ~$200 a pop- this is for RageIIc and RagePro level graphics(a TNT1 b!tch slaps them hard for those not familiar).
The pricing of their hardware would be comical in the PC space. They do not use top tier parts as the norm, they tend to skimp on a level comparable to Wal-Mart level PCs with the only exception being what their typical consumer will see(the case, monitor, keyboard and mouse). Apple will avoid stepping up to the best available processors to protect their margins for long periods of time, so much so that users are frequently looking at paying $3.5K for a machine that was $3.5K six months prior. Mac users actually frequently tout this as an advantage because the machines hold their value longer- seems very foolish to me that they don't bother realizing that the prices on all of the components for that machine had been dropping for six months and Apple was simply kicking back raking in serious margins at their expense. Their GPU offerings also tend to be significantly sub par compared to what a like PC would land you, as is the case with their RAM and HDs.
Steve Jobs. The man is a used car salesman at best. He has had regulatory bodies force him to pull ads off the market because they went so far off the deep end(his RDF gets insane at times). He also suffers from an ego the likes of which has held Apple back for most of its existance(his abject failure to make moves both the first and second time he was in charge of the company when he had golden oppurtunities- first with the launching of the Mac and then with the tranisition to OSX his most noteable major failures). Due to his desire to stroke himself he refused to take the one part of their machines that people every really thought was worth a d@mn- the OS, and port it over to the far more popular and for some time now far more powerful x86 platform. If he could have swallowed his pride just enough to make that simple move Gates would have something remotely viable to worry about and Apple would likely be looking at an order of magitude greater marketshare then what they currently have. Also a factor for Jobs is his absolutisim in telling customers what they want, how they want it and when they want it. If a PC maker did the same they would be DOA- there is simply no chance they would survive at all. The extremely limited options you are given when buying a Mac are those approved by Jobs and only those approved by Jobs. Apple ran into problems for the brief period of time that they allowed clones- mainly as the marketshare was too small, and this is used as justification for their extremely hard lined stance against serving customers now.
Lack of available software. Macs have something available to do just about anything- PCs just have a whole lot more options on what you want to do it with. Of course the Mac faithful will tell you their options are just fine, they wouldn't be Mac faithful if they felt otherwise
Nigh no games. They can attempt to marginalize this any way they want. My PC can do everything their Mac can do and play games. I have all the consoles too(and handhelds for that matter); I don't like missing any worth while title and with a Mac over a PC you will miss almost all of the computer based games worth playing.
Jobs won't let me build my own. I don't trust Dell to build my rig, I don't trust HP/Compaq to build my rig, I don't trust IBM to build my rig- why would I trust a company that really can't compete with them? I wouldn't mind running OSX for a while and seeing how much of the hype is justified, it is hard to know as most Mac users are either delusional or liars when it comes to their platform(I know this all too well from my time using the pitiful pre OSX OSs). There is no chance I'm going to buy one of Apple's very poorly built machines, they are overpriced, underpowered, and have configurations that are sad outside of the uber expensive machines. If I could build my own it would be worth it for me as a curiosity, but not being able to build my own places it very high on the 'suck' list.
Pretty much what it all comes down to is unless you know exactly why you want to buy a Mac, you probably don't want one.
Originally posted by: Hanzou
3 main things in my opinion.
1. You cannot really pick and decide what you want. There iare a few different levels of the Computer and you get whatever is included.
2. The price. $3000 for a Computer with a geforce 5200...No thanks
3. Software. Very few games come out on the mac, and most software is designed for the windows platform. Video editing and that sort used to eb the best for Mac but over the years companys are making programs that work just as well on the PC as Mac.
Originally posted by: deathkoba
They're the best computers in the world and increases value as time passes by. Period.
Errr... Anand writes his AT articles on a Mac.Originally posted by: dkozloski
A MAC is a computerlike device for the dimwitted.
Errr... Dubya uses a Mac.Originally posted by: dkozloski
People who prefer MACs, prefer John Kerry. What more damning evidence do you need?
Yes, OS 9 sucks royally. However, OS X is excellent. Your treatise is like judging Windows on the basis of Windows 98. I should point out that OS 9 was declared dead by Apple years ago, and no current Macs ship with an OS 9 install. Furthermore, no Mac that Apple sells is even capable of booting OS 9. They REQUIRE OS X just to work.Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Those with a true utter loathing of Macs likely spent a long time using them. I spent about a decade with Macs as my primary platform(was running Apple][s mainly before that for a while too) and really you can't properly appreciate how badly they sucked compared to PCs unless you were forced to use one for a while(or were ignorant enough to believe the BS). Every OS Apple had prior to OSX was extremely crash prone- certainly far worse then Win9x when pushed. An app went down your OS was going down with nigh certainty. Memory management was left up to you- having to manually assign applications an amount of RAM they were allowed to utilize. Moving over to the PC it took me a while to get used to it, but since escaping from the slums of technology(OS9 and earlier) I regularly have a dozen apps open and don't really give a thought to using more- this was not viable on earlier Mac OSs.
Their hardware is poorly made and insanely overpriced, and they lie to their customers. For a time Apple was selling Macs with a 'lifetime' warranty only to change their mind in a couple of years when they were faced with massive amounts of failing hardware and for a time refused to honor their warranty(it took a court case to get them to do what they promised they would). The original iMacs more recently suffered massive failure rates on their 'Analog boards' and frequently need to have them replaced running owners ~$200 a pop- this is for RageIIc and RagePro level graphics(a TNT1 b!tch slaps them hard for those not familiar).
The pricing of their hardware would be comical in the PC space. They do not use top tier parts as the norm, they tend to skimp on a level comparable to Wal-Mart level PCs with the only exception being what their typical consumer will see(the case, monitor, keyboard and mouse). Apple will avoid stepping up to the best available processors to protect their margins for long periods of time, so much so that users are frequently looking at paying $3.5K for a machine that was $3.5K six months prior. Mac users actually frequently tout this as an advantage because the machines hold their value longer- seems very foolish to me that they don't bother realizing that the prices on all of the components for that machine had been dropping for six months and Apple was simply kicking back raking in serious margins at their expense. Their GPU offerings also tend to be significantly sub par compared to what a like PC would land you, as is the case with their RAM and HDs.
Steve Jobs. The man is a used car salesman at best. He has had regulatory bodies force him to pull ads off the market because they went so far off the deep end(his RDF gets insane at times). He also suffers from an ego the likes of which has held Apple back for most of its existance(his abject failure to make moves both the first and second time he was in charge of the company when he had golden oppurtunities- first with the launching of the Mac and then with the tranisition to OSX his most noteable major failures). Due to his desire to stroke himself he refused to take the one part of their machines that people every really thought was worth a d@mn- the OS, and port it over to the far more popular and for some time now far more powerful x86 platform. If he could have swallowed his pride just enough to make that simple move Gates would have something remotely viable to worry about and Apple would likely be looking at an order of magitude greater marketshare then what they currently have. Also a factor for Jobs is his absolutisim in telling customers what they want, how they want it and when they want it. If a PC maker did the same they would be DOA- there is simply no chance they would survive at all. The extremely limited options you are given when buying a Mac are those approved by Jobs and only those approved by Jobs. Apple ran into problems for the brief period of time that they allowed clones- mainly as the marketshare was too small, and this is used as justification for their extremely hard lined stance against serving customers now.
Lack of available software. Macs have something available to do just about anything- PCs just have a whole lot more options on what you want to do it with. Of course the Mac faithful will tell you their options are just fine, they wouldn't be Mac faithful if they felt otherwise
Nigh no games. They can attempt to marginalize this any way they want. My PC can do everything their Mac can do and play games. I have all the consoles too(and handhelds for that matter); I don't like missing any worth while title and with a Mac over a PC you will miss almost all of the computer based games worth playing.
Jobs won't let me build my own. I don't trust Dell to build my rig, I don't trust HP/Compaq to build my rig, I don't trust IBM to build my rig- why would I trust a company that really can't compete with them? I wouldn't mind running OSX for a while and seeing how much of the hype is justified, it is hard to know as most Mac users are either delusional or liars when it comes to their platform(I know this all too well from my time using the pitiful pre OSX OSs). There is no chance I'm going to buy one of Apple's very poorly built machines, they are overpriced, underpowered, and have configurations that are sad outside of the uber expensive machines. If I could build my own it would be worth it for me as a curiosity, but not being able to build my own places it very high on the 'suck' list.
Pretty much what it all comes down to is unless you know exactly why you want to buy a Mac, you probably don't want one.
Originally posted by: deathkoba
Yea yea, keep coming up with stupid excuses. Macs are used by PROFESSIONALS, not some PEECEE WEENIE GAMING DORK. Get a life, get a Mac.
Originally posted by: xxsk8er101xx
This is an ethusiest forum. Where people like to be geeks and learn how to hack their computer, program things, and play games and hack them. Also hack movies to copy them and whatever else. The PC has a lot of freedom to do what developers and software engineers enjoy doing. Making this thing do what they want.
Macs are limited to the non developers and the non ethusiest.
That's the difference. You will never see a developer start off with a mac. PC's are cheaper first of all and you learn a lot more when you build one yourself. you can also program it with various programming tools. Macs has very little development tools. Not sure why but i can only think that maybe a mac is just difficult to program in.
so
PC's = Developer/Ethusiest/gamers (who become developers eventually)
Macs = Users who can't get that blinking 12:00 to stop
Originally posted by: deathkoba
Yea yea, keep coming up with stupid excuses. Macs are used by PROFESSIONALS, not some PEECEE WEENIE GAMING DORK. Get a life, get a Mac.
Originally posted by: xxsk8er101xx
This is an ethusiest forum. Where people like to be geeks and learn how to hack their computer, program things, and play games and hack them. Also hack movies to copy them and whatever else. The PC has a lot of freedom to do what developers and software engineers enjoy doing. Making this thing do what they want.
Macs are limited to the non developers and the non ethusiest.
That's the difference. You will never see a developer start off with a mac. PC's are cheaper first of all and you learn a lot more when you build one yourself. you can also program it with various programming tools. Macs has very little development tools. Not sure why but i can only think that maybe a mac is just difficult to program in.
so
PC's = Developer/Ethusiest/gamers (who become developers eventually)
Macs = Users who can't get that blinking 12:00 to stop
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Those with a true utter loathing of Macs likely spent a long time using them. I spent about a decade with Macs as my primary platform(was running Apple][s mainly before that for a while too) and really you can't properly appreciate how badly they sucked compared to PCs unless you were forced to use one for a while(or were ignorant enough to believe the BS). Every OS Apple had prior to OSX was extremely crash prone- certainly far worse then Win9x when pushed. An app went down your OS was going down with nigh certainty. Memory management was left up to you- having to manually assign applications an amount of RAM they were allowed to utilize. Moving over to the PC it took me a while to get used to it, but since escaping from the slums of technology(OS9 and earlier) I regularly have a dozen apps open and don't really give a thought to using more- this was not viable on earlier Mac OSs.
Their hardware is poorly made and insanely overpriced, and they lie to their customers. For a time Apple was selling Macs with a 'lifetime' warranty only to change their mind in a couple of years when they were faced with massive amounts of failing hardware and for a time refused to honor their warranty(it took a court case to get them to do what they promised they would). The original iMacs more recently suffered massive failure rates on their 'Analog boards' and frequently need to have them replaced running owners ~$200 a pop- this is for RageIIc and RagePro level graphics(a TNT1 b!tch slaps them hard for those not familiar).
The pricing of their hardware would be comical in the PC space. They do not use top tier parts as the norm, they tend to skimp on a level comparable to Wal-Mart level PCs with the only exception being what their typical consumer will see(the case, monitor, keyboard and mouse). Apple will avoid stepping up to the best available processors to protect their margins for long periods of time, so much so that users are frequently looking at paying $3.5K for a machine that was $3.5K six months prior. Mac users actually frequently tout this as an advantage because the machines hold their value longer- seems very foolish to me that they don't bother realizing that the prices on all of the components for that machine had been dropping for six months and Apple was simply kicking back raking in serious margins at their expense. Their GPU offerings also tend to be significantly sub par compared to what a like PC would land you, as is the case with their RAM and HDs.
Steve Jobs. The man is a used car salesman at best. He has had regulatory bodies force him to pull ads off the market because they went so far off the deep end(his RDF gets insane at times). He also suffers from an ego the likes of which has held Apple back for most of its existance(his abject failure to make moves both the first and second time he was in charge of the company when he had golden oppurtunities- first with the launching of the Mac and then with the tranisition to OSX his most noteable major failures). Due to his desire to stroke himself he refused to take the one part of their machines that people every really thought was worth a d@mn- the OS, and port it over to the far more popular and for some time now far more powerful x86 platform. If he could have swallowed his pride just enough to make that simple move Gates would have something remotely viable to worry about and Apple would likely be looking at an order of magitude greater marketshare then what they currently have. Also a factor for Jobs is his absolutisim in telling customers what they want, how they want it and when they want it. If a PC maker did the same they would be DOA- there is simply no chance they would survive at all. The extremely limited options you are given when buying a Mac are those approved by Jobs and only those approved by Jobs. Apple ran into problems for the brief period of time that they allowed clones- mainly as the marketshare was too small, and this is used as justification for their extremely hard lined stance against serving customers now.
Lack of available software. Macs have something available to do just about anything- PCs just have a whole lot more options on what you want to do it with. Of course the Mac faithful will tell you their options are just fine, they wouldn't be Mac faithful if they felt otherwise
Nigh no games. They can attempt to marginalize this any way they want. My PC can do everything their Mac can do and play games. I have all the consoles too(and handhelds for that matter); I don't like missing any worth while title and with a Mac over a PC you will miss almost all of the computer based games worth playing.
Jobs won't let me build my own. I don't trust Dell to build my rig, I don't trust HP/Compaq to build my rig, I don't trust IBM to build my rig- why would I trust a company that really can't compete with them? I wouldn't mind running OSX for a while and seeing how much of the hype is justified, it is hard to know as most Mac users are either delusional or liars when it comes to their platform(I know this all too well from my time using the pitiful pre OSX OSs). There is no chance I'm going to buy one of Apple's very poorly built machines, they are overpriced, underpowered, and have configurations that are sad outside of the uber expensive machines. If I could build my own it would be worth it for me as a curiosity, but not being able to build my own places it very high on the 'suck' list.
Pretty much what it all comes down to is unless you know exactly why you want to buy a Mac, you probably don't want one.
Yes, OS 9 sucks royally. However, OS X is excellent. Your treatise is like judging Windows on the basis of Windows 98. I should point out that OS 9 was declared dead by Apple years ago, and no current Macs ship with an OS 9 install. Furthermore, no Mac that Apple sells is even capable of booting OS 9. They REQUIRE OS X just to work.
Anyways, IMO, most of the Macs are better built then their PC counterparts, although there have been some lemons out there of course.
The Power Macs are expensive, but then again so are dual Xeon machines, when similarly configured.
As for Mac users being delusional or liars, I don't know what to say.
OS9 was far more stable than 98 ever was.
Seriously dude, have you even used OS X? There are several utilities/features in the OS that absolutely blow away Windows when it comes to recovery. Macs have AV clients(although a lack of viruses to use them on), don't need to defrag since the filesystem is built to be fragmentation and corruption resistant(ala NTFS; smart organization and journaling), and don't need a registry cleaner since they don't have a registry(and hence no chance of the registry blowing out). There's a utility to repair disk permissions should someone do something they shouldn't, and if you have to reinstall there's an option in the installer that can really reinstall the whole OS while keeping your files and settings in tact(it even packs up the old OS in case you need to get something out of it); it'll be a whole new OS and you'd never notice unless you used non-default apps. There are a lot of points I could agree on dealing with PC vs. Mac, but take it from someone who's done recovery on both - recovering on a Mac is far easier than on a Windows PC.Originally posted by: Gnosis
2. When it starts to go crazy there nothing you can do about it. on a
pc you can defrag/cleanregister/run antivirus and in the worst case
reinstall the OS but keep your files. On a mac.... well... sit back and
enjoy the ride.
Originally posted by: dkozloski
A MAC is a computerlike device for the dimwitted.
Hey, I can't help it if your Mac acquaintances are idiots.Most of them are. I can not possibly count the amount of times I had discussions where Mac users were touting how much more stable OS8 was over NT4 and then OS9 over Win2K- the mere assertion is laughable at best. Neither of them could hope to compete with Win98, for that matter Win95 was their superior in terms of stability when pushed. Constantly they talked about the superior multi-tasking and memory management(along with numerous other elements, I simply remember those as pre OSX was closer to Win3.1 then any Win9x based OS in those aspects, let alone Win2K).
The ads were pulled in the UK I believe. Interestingly, for Photoshop, the Macs are often indeed faster, mainly because it's the commonly used ones that are faster on the Mac (incl. stuff like RGB --> CMYK), but much of the time, the speed differences are irrelevant, and with different Photoshop work, Windows PCs will be faster.Then there is the insistance that Macs are much faster because they can run a couple of Photoshop benches quicker then a PC. That particular claim is repeated by Apple themselves and not that long ago they were forced to pull ads they were running because of the misleading nature of them(which, most ads being misleading by nature speaks volumes).
After I bought my TiBook, my boss wanted something similar, but in a PC laptop. The closest thing I could find was an IBM T series, but it cost more than the TiBook. By the way, I can't stand Dell laptops. I had an Inspiron, and it was not so well built. My colleagues have them too, and they seem better than before, but still not even close to the level of the IBM T series.Then there is the whole 'you get what you pay for' mentality. Apple can slap any obscene price on a machine they want and a great deal of the Mac faithful rally behind it with fanatacism stating that the reason you have to pay more is because of how much better the hardware is. If you are thinking you disagree with this point honestly contemplate if Dell was selling a rig that ran OSX comparable to their typical current machines and Apple had their current lineup would you even consider buying an Apple machine?
Again, everyone I know knows that most 3D isn't done on Macs. There is more of it done nowadays than before, but it's still a drop in the bucket comparison.Mac users also go off about how everyone in the content creation worl relies on Macs and their are no substitutes(we can even see a bit of that in this thread). I recall talking to numerous delusional souls who were blinded by their faith that were utterly convinced that all high end CGI was done on Macs- this was some time prior to Maya even being available for the platform(even if it tends to be an outdated version, at least they have something better then Lightwave now).
And I still wonder just who you're talking to. Anyone with significant experience with both sides will tell you that both have their advantages and disadvantages, even if they have a bias towards one or the other.Yes, I stand by my statement that most Mac users are either delusional or liars. I haven't said it's all of them as their are certainly reasonable enthusiasts who can openly discsuss the ups and downs of the platform, but they are certainly not the majority.