What's your take of Hyperthreading?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Originally posted by: ReMeDy{WcS}
Because some applications, if not a good majority take an impact in performance with the HT enabled rather than Disabled. It's nice to have a feature that works, but if it is degrading performance with some applications, it's useless.
"a good majority"??? There are incredibly few applications that show a performance loss with HT enabled, and those are negligible at worst.

Check out Anand's HT Enabled vs Disabled tests and see for yourself.


What do I think of HT? I think it's an awesome technology. Where home users will notice it the most right now, is multitasking. If you check out the article that I linked above, Anand compared some benchmarks while multitasking.

For instance, in his DiVX Encoding + File Copy test...
w/out HT = 92 + 220 seconds to complete the tasks
with HT = 79 + 185

Check out the article... He has more examples of the benefits of HT.

And yes, it basically is free performance. A HT cpu costs about the same as a non-HT cpu (+/- ~10%).

And as it has already been stated, now that Intel is getting SMT cpu's out on the market, it's only a matter of time before more and more software is written to take advantage of it.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Originally posted by: Wingznut
Originally posted by: ReMeDy{WcS}
Because some applications, if not a good majority take an impact in performance with the HT enabled rather than Disabled. It's nice to have a feature that works, but if it is degrading performance with some applications, it's useless.
"a good majority"??? There are incredibly few applications that show a performance loss with HT enabled, and those are negligible at worst.

Check out Anand's HT Enabled vs Disabled tests and see for yourself.


What do I think of HT? I think it's an awesome technology. Where home users will notice it the most right now, is multitasking. If you check out the article that I linked above, Anand compared some benchmarks while multitasking.

For instance, in his DiVX Encoding + File Copy test...
w/out HT = 92 + 220 seconds to complete the tasks
with HT = 79 + 185

Check out the article... He has more examples of the benefits of HT.

And yes, it basically is free performance. A HT cpu costs about the same as a non-HT cpu (+/- ~10%).

And as it has already been stated, now that Intel is getting SMT cpu's out on the market, it's only a matter of time before more and more software is written to take advantage of it.
If you're so inclined, I'd be curious to hear your results (or anyone else's) with any of these:

  • A full antivirus scan of a hard drive, heuristics enabled if applicable, with HT on versus off. This is a task that business computers may do every day, to the chagrin of the users. Well, I'm sure you know as well as anyone... The sooner it's over, the better
  • The WinZip/UT compression benchie, with HT on versus off. Just for the heck of it.
  • Maybe some sort of short encoding project while an antivirus scan is running, or a WinZip/UT benchie while encoding is running, HT on & off
 

jhites

Golden Member
Mar 19, 2000
1,854
0
0
Originally posted by: mechBgon
If you're so inclined, I'd be curious to hear your results (or anyone else's) with any of these:

  • A full antivirus scan of a hard drive, heuristics enabled if applicable, with HT on versus off. This is a task that business computers may do every day, to the chagrin of the users. Well, I'm sure you know as well as anyone... The sooner it's over, the better
  • The WinZip/UT compression benchie, with HT on versus off. Just for the heck of it.
  • Maybe some sort of short encoding project while an antivirus scan is running, or a WinZip/UT benchie while encoding is running, HT on & off
Interesting - I have not looked at this while running a full antivirus scan. I can run 2 instances of Seti 24/7 (16-24wu's a day) while still doing other tasks. One instance of Seti will only show 50% cpu usage in the task manager. You have to run 2 instances of processor intensive apps to get up to 100%.

Now you have me curious.
How would running virus scan with one instance of Seti running compare to Seti stopped HT on?
Compare to HT off with Seti off running virus scan?
I do know that I can complete a single wu a little faster with HT off but only by a few tenths of a second, which hardly outways the advantage of running multiply instances at once.
 

squidman

Senior member
May 2, 2003
643
0
0
If HT is sooo all powerful, how come AMD performs on par with intel when it comes to games?
I guess AMD can slap a sticker saying "Mega-Transfer" or "Super-Transition" or "ULTRA-reticulation" on their CPU, and be just as successful

Intel owns the market with their ingenious marketing specialists.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Originally posted by: squidman
If HT is sooo all powerful, how come AMD performs on par with intel when it comes to games?
I guess AMD can slap a sticker saying "Mega-Transfer" or "Super-Transition" or "ULTRA-reticulation" on their CPU, and be just as successful

Intel owns the market with their ingenious marketing specialists.
Because games are not multi-threaded. Also, I don't think anyone claimed that HT was "sooo all powerful" in single applications that aren't multi-threaded.

Now, try doing the same Intel vs AMD comparison while playing games and encoding video.



 

jhites

Golden Member
Mar 19, 2000
1,854
0
0
Originally posted by: squidman
If HT is sooo all powerful, how come AMD performs on par with intel when it comes to games?
I guess AMD can slap a sticker saying "Mega-Transfer" or "Super-Transition" or "ULTRA-reticulation" on their CPU, and be just as successful

Intel owns the market with their ingenious marketing specialists.
Play UT while running Prime95, Seti or some DivX and report back how on par that AMD system is in comparison.

 

AnImuS

Senior member
Sep 28, 2001
939
0
0
Originally posted by: Wingznut
Originally posted by: squidman
If HT is sooo all powerful, how come AMD performs on par with intel when it comes to games?
I guess AMD can slap a sticker saying "Mega-Transfer" or "Super-Transition" or "ULTRA-reticulation" on their CPU, and be just as successful

Intel owns the market with their ingenious marketing specialists.
Because games are not multi-threaded. Also, I don't think anyone claimed that HT was "sooo all powerful" in single applications that aren't multi-threaded.

Now, try doing the same Intel vs AMD comparison while playing games and encoding video.

squid

pwned
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Originally posted by: jhites
Originally posted by: squidman
If HT is sooo all powerful, how come AMD performs on par with intel when it comes to games?
I guess AMD can slap a sticker saying "Mega-Transfer" or "Super-Transition" or "ULTRA-reticulation" on their CPU, and be just as successful

Intel owns the market with their ingenious marketing specialists.
Play UT while running Prime95, Seti or some DivX and report back how on par that AMD system is in comparison.
Actually, I do play UT while running SETI on my ol' nForce classic system, and it has no discernable effect at all. If your i875P system needs HT in order to run S@H and UT simultaneously, something's wrong.

edit: I'm still waiting for anyone to take the initiative on the real-world benchies I suggested. Anything that improves system performance while a daily virus scan is going on, is a step forward in my book. So far, my #1 countermeasure is SCSI, which not only completes it very quickly, but handles the multitasking aspect with far more dignity than even a WD JB-series drive.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Ok, I rummaged up this one by editing a URL: http://support.intel.com/support/platform/ht/os.htm

The following desktop operating systems are not recommended for use with Hyper-Threading Technology. If you are using one of the following desktop operating systems, it is advised that you should disable Hyper-Threading Technology in the system BIOS Setup program:

Microsoft Windows 2000 (all versions)
Microsoft Windows NT* 4.0
Microsoft Windows Me
Microsoft Windows 98
Microsoft Windows 98 SE

So HT is not recommended for Win2000, not even Win2000 Server? Why not? We aren't going to migrate off Win2000 where I work until 2006-2007ish, last I heard.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Originally posted by: mechBgon
By the way, Wingznut, looks like you guys got a broken link http://www.intel/info/hyperthreading/
You forgot the dot com. fixed link

Btw, I don't have an HT cpu... So, I can't do the tests that you have asked. But yeah, I'd be interested in seeing the results, too.

As for UT and SETI, I don't think anyone even implied that you "need HT in order to run S@H and UT simultaneously". It's not a matter of "need", but more a matter of performance.

I don't use any sort of DC, so please correct me if I am wrong... But doesn't SETI only use the cpu cycles when it's idle? If so, then of course you wouldn't notice a difference when multitasking with it.
 

tommie

Member
Apr 3, 2003
31
0
0
i run 2 rigs ; a soltek nforce2 /barton 2800 & asus p4pe/3.06 . i use the amd just for gameing and some web surfing but in anything else it doesnt even come close to the 3.06. i notice a huge differance.

tommie j:
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Originally posted by: Wingznut
Originally posted by: mechBgon
By the way, Wingznut, looks like you guys got a broken link http://www.intel/info/hyperthreading/
You forgot the dot com. fixed link

Btw, I don't have an HT cpu... So, I can't do the tests that you have asked. But yeah, I'd be interested in seeing the results, too.

As for UT and SETI, I don't think anyone even implied that you "need HT in order to run S@H and UT simultaneously". It's not a matter of "need", but more a matter of performance.

I don't use any sort of DC, so please correct me if I am wrong... But doesn't SETI only use the cpu cycles when it's idle? If so, then of course you wouldn't notice a difference when multitasking with it.
Your Webmaster forgot the .com, not me Steer him in this direction.

You are correct about SETI; it just waits its turn... and waits... and waits... oh ok, he's done playin' UT now, my turn again! I know what jhites was driving at, but he picked a bad example.

Question: do people, in actual real life, run encoding projects while they game? I'd hate to have my game crash my system and ruin a couple hours of progress on a 6-hour encoding or rendering project. Whether HT can do that better or not, I wouldn't tempt fate that way.

If anyone with a HT-enabled system wants to do some real-world benchmarks while a virus scan is running in the background, with HT on versus HT off, that would be informative. It's probably the #1 reason I'd be interested in HT, if it weren't for the fact that we will probably not have a HT-ready OS on desktop systems for several years to come.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Your Webmaster forgot the .com, not me Steer him in this direction.

You are correct about SETI; it just waits its turn... and waits... and waits... oh ok, he's done playin' UT now, my turn again! I know what jhites was driving at, but he picked a bad example.

Question: do people, in actual real life, run encoding projects while they game? I'd hate to have my game crash my system and ruin a couple hours of progress on a 6-hour encoding or rendering project. Whether HT can do that better or not, I wouldn't tempt fate that way.

If anyone with a HT-enabled system wants to do some real-world benchmarks while a virus scan is running in the background, with HT on versus HT off, that would be informative. It's probably the #1 reason I'd be interested in HT, if it weren't for the fact that we will probably not have a HT-ready OS on desktop systems for several years to come.
The broken link has been reported. Thanks for pointing it out.

Do people multitask like your example? I don't really know. I don't have HT nor do I encode video yet. If I were encoding a six hour project, and I felt like playing a game... I have little doubt that if I could do it (with little or no performance hit), I certainly would.

And if have system crashes often, then you have issues other than multitasking to worry about.


 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
LOL, well we all know that games NEVER have bugs that cause BSOD's or anything
 

orion7144

Diamond Member
Oct 8, 2002
4,425
0
0
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Originally posted by: Wingznut
Originally posted by: mechBgon
By the way, Wingznut, looks like you guys got a broken link http://www.intel/info/hyperthreading/
You forgot the dot com. fixed link

Btw, I don't have an HT cpu... So, I can't do the tests that you have asked. But yeah, I'd be interested in seeing the results, too.

As for UT and SETI, I don't think anyone even implied that you "need HT in order to run S@H and UT simultaneously". It's not a matter of "need", but more a matter of performance.

I don't use any sort of DC, so please correct me if I am wrong... But doesn't SETI only use the cpu cycles when it's idle? If so, then of course you wouldn't notice a difference when multitasking with it.
Your Webmaster forgot the .com, not me Steer him in this direction.

You are correct about SETI; it just waits its turn... and waits... and waits... oh ok, he's done playin' UT now, my turn again! I know what jhites was driving at, but he picked a bad example.

Question: do people, in actual real life, run encoding projects while they game? I'd hate to have my game crash my system and ruin a couple hours of progress on a 6-hour encoding or rendering project. Whether HT can do that better or not, I wouldn't tempt fate that way.

If anyone with a HT-enabled system wants to do some real-world benchmarks while a virus scan is running in the background, with HT on versus HT off, that would be informative. It's probably the #1 reason I'd be interested in HT, if it weren't for the fact that we will probably not have a HT-ready OS on desktop systems for several years to come.


You wouldn't have to worry about it crashing if you were using an Intel machine. I play games and encode all time.
 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
0
0
If I've got this straight, Intel says that HT is using unused CPU resources. Due to the way programs are written, there are conflicts preventing the CPU from being used maximally. For instance, an instructrion may depend on the result of some previous instructions before it can be executed. Since "threads"or processes are totally independant, they do not have this type of conflict. (They do have to compete for resources most of the time though.)

>..., in his DiVX Encoding + File Copy test...
>w/out HT = 92 + 220 seconds to complete the tasks
>with HT = 79 + 185

Evidently there were 92-79 = 13 free slots for DIVX to use while File Copy was executing. And 220-185 = 35 free slots for File Copy to use while DIVX was doing its work.

What this does is take an intractable CPU resource scheduling problem and turn it into an advantage, provided you really want to run two programs at once, or have a single program that has independent parts.

Problem for AMD is that to get its high instructions per cycle, it needs resource overkill, which avoids stalls. If they did hyperthreading, it would ruin the instructions per cycle aspect. OTOH, the Athlon having the amount of CPU resource overkill that it does, it should have plenty of unused resourses to employ in hyperthreading.

Why are games not threaded? I think they are, only the threading is done internally to the program, not handed to the OS. Games have to at least interleave video, multichannel sound, and disk access internally to keep everything in sync and throughput maxed. They also have to interleave game geometry and physics equally as critically, and can't rely on the OS to keep it straight. Threaded media encoding could be done internally to the program instead of handing threads to the OS. But SSE2 is the other Athlon killer in encoding.

mechBgon already pointed out that SETI is careful to only use time "left over" from other tasks, so that's why it can run without noticeably impacting other uses. A lot of "background" programs do the same. Hey, most of the time the computer is waiting millions or billions of cycles for me to type the next letter.

Why exactly people want to do DIVX encoding while they do something else intensive, I really can't say. It strikes me as odd to have a second program stealing 40% of the CPU time time after you paid $500 for a processor just because your encoding was taking so gol-dang long. I'd save some bucks and have DIVX chugging while I sleep, or am at work. Or you can build another cheap, fast AMD box, or two, or three, if you really need that much CPU time for encoding. You don't really need expensive video for a computation box. Or a monitor after you've set it up with a remote desktop. I've got three extra computers built up from retired equipment and "hot deals" specials. Who doesn't? I wish I could come up with something useful for this surplus CPU power.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Originally posted by: orion7144
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Originally posted by: Wingznut
Originally posted by: mechBgon
By the way, Wingznut, looks like you guys got a broken link http://www.intel/info/hyperthreading/
You forgot the dot com. fixed link

Btw, I don't have an HT cpu... So, I can't do the tests that you have asked. But yeah, I'd be interested in seeing the results, too.

As for UT and SETI, I don't think anyone even implied that you "need HT in order to run S@H and UT simultaneously". It's not a matter of "need", but more a matter of performance.

I don't use any sort of DC, so please correct me if I am wrong... But doesn't SETI only use the cpu cycles when it's idle? If so, then of course you wouldn't notice a difference when multitasking with it.
Your Webmaster forgot the .com, not me Steer him in this direction.

You are correct about SETI; it just waits its turn... and waits... and waits... oh ok, he's done playin' UT now, my turn again! I know what jhites was driving at, but he picked a bad example.

Question: do people, in actual real life, run encoding projects while they game? I'd hate to have my game crash my system and ruin a couple hours of progress on a 6-hour encoding or rendering project. Whether HT can do that better or not, I wouldn't tempt fate that way.

If anyone with a HT-enabled system wants to do some real-world benchmarks while a virus scan is running in the background, with HT on versus HT off, that would be informative. It's probably the #1 reason I'd be interested in HT, if it weren't for the fact that we will probably not have a HT-ready OS on desktop systems for several years to come.


You wouldn't have to worry about it crashing if you were using an Intel machine. I play games and encode all time.
Having owned plenty of Intel machines, including three dualies, I can assure you that when I'm running a 36-hour dual-processor render session, I don't even want to look sideways at the machine, let alone fire up a game on it... Intel or not. Nice try, though.
 

squidman

Senior member
May 2, 2003
643
0
0
To me my AMD i still mighty kick-ass. I mean, it compresses 1 minute of .avi video into 640x480 Mpeg2 in 1:07, as opposed to my PIII that took 5 minutes + to do the same. mech probably renders something like lord of the rings with hella transitions, that takes 36 hours.
HT doesnt work in almost anything sides WInXp? Haha. As i said, its all about marketing. *Slaps "Giga-Transition by AMD" on his case*...I feel like Intel customer now!
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Originally posted by: squidman
To me my AMD i still mighty kick-ass. I mean, it compresses 1 minute of .avi video into 640x480 Mpeg2 in 1:07, as opposed to my PIII that took 5 minutes + to do the same. mech probably renders something like lord of the rings with hella transitions, that takes 36 hours.
HT doesnt work in almost anything sides WInXp? Haha. As i said, its all about marketing. *Slaps "Giga-Transition by AMD" on his case*...I feel like Intel customer now!
How can you rationally say "its all about marketing", when there are benchmarks out there proving the benefits of HT?

Are you that much of an AMD zealot that you close your eyes to the facts?

As for your AMD vs P3 comparison, that's about as relevant as if I were to bash AMD since my K6-2 couldn't keep up with my friend's Celeron in ANY game.
 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
0
0
Hi, Wingnut. You're the 98% rational Intel man. You are asking squidman, who is mainly into expressing his feelings, but I tend to agree with the marketing comment. Intel is in the forefront of CPU marketing, dreaming up uses for prodigious CPU power that few people suspected existed. However, in this particular case, I think they are onto something in addition to super-marketing, although not for most purposes quite yet. (HT was sitting unused in Intel CPUs a long time. Must be an excellent reason for that. What?)

In thiinking about this, I realized that I don't have a clear idea of how multiprocessors receive a divided workload from the OS. I have always pictured multiprocessing as under control of the programmer, which it is not. I downloaded a pdf from Intel that I'm hoping will give a better idea of exactly what they are doing. At first HT seems logical. Then it seems like you could just as easily cripple a CPU's throughput by halfing all the resources available to each of two separate processes running on the same CPU. Half as many decoders. Half-size buffers. Half as many reservation stations. Half as many execution units. Half as many RISC registers for renaming. Half as much cache. By analogy, if you attempted to put twice as many cars on the road during rush hour as there are now, would more cars get through per hour or less? There is something peculiar about how HT works that Intel is not saying. Remember, with two separate processors, you are doubling the resources, like adding another separate road, so it is not the same thing.


Anyway, I think squidman was saying he was pleased with what his setup can do, even if there are better. So probably are most people. It is the job of marketers to persuade you that you should not be. They are marvelous at it.
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
16,215
0
71
It doesn't have to be Divx encodings ppl....I often capturing video from my satellite in a Tivo like function but still using my Cadd program to work with or fly a flight sim game with eye candy on...Any combination of multiple programs that by themselves are cpu/resource intensive may take advantage of this. I think many of the above examples are not for me, but then again my system only needs little more then 2 hours to encode a 2 hour divx 5.05pro codec movie with 2 pass, high bitrate 2 cd rip, with 224kbit mp3 audio!!!

Sometimes it more about that sudden use I need the system for and not want to take the hit on my encoding time...It would be nice to know it wouldn't slow it down nearly as much....

I don't see why many can't see the uses....I don'twant a machine I am afraid of touching as it runs a program cause I am afraid it will crash or corrupt the data...like Wingz said, that sounds like there was problems to begin with....
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |