who regrets buying a 4850?

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: SilentRunning

Originally posted by: shangshang
...
Let's see. First there was the high temperature issue, with my 4850 hiting as high as 93-95C when my ambient room temp is 92F, causing random crashes in games. So had to pretty much stop gaming when room temp gets this high. But that was before the BIOS and fan mod, and after modding the BIOS/fan mod, temp. improved a bit and games stopped crashing. But the fact that I even have to do this for "fix" the issue is quite unacceptable.
...

Maybe if you had left the card alone it wouldn't be having issues.

Originally posted by: shangshang
...
I did change the thermal paste before even installing the card, so I don't know the temp with the old paste. But I did noticed the old thermal paste was a bit hard, so I just slap on a fresh patch.
...

I agree with all of this, I don't think users should base any 4850 impression off of Shangshang's experiences.

1. 92F is really hot for ambient temp, most people in most places that have gaming computers won't likely be in similar circumstance.

2. All the modding he did sort of makes any conclusions impossible.

4850s are hot cards to start with, but most people wouldn't have issues running them at stock speeds in a more temperate climate.

ATi wouldn't release them if they were too hot for normal (65-80F) rooms.

no, he is right...
1. So what? the card doesn't start crashing until 194f...
90 degrees Celsius = 194 degrees Fahrenheit.
92 degrees Fahrenheit = 33.3333333 degrees Celsius

I had random crashing on my 72f ambiant before I modded the fanspeed.

2. Because increasing the fan speed is a surefire way to make drivers crap out on you and the manufacturer not list drivers on their website... /sarcasm

3. Powerplay being broken on the shipping bios for all the early made cards requiring you to flash it yourself or get one manufactured more recently is just bad, and has nothing to do with him. I had the same problem, so did almost everyone else.


Really, the 4850 is giving me 8800GT flashbacks... that card was a big "TO AVOID" until the ones with after market cooling arrived. I would say the same about the 4850 to anyone who is not comfortable putting after market cooling and flashing the bios. If you are comfortable with those actions, then it is the greatest bang for the buck, if you aren't, then it is a disaster to avoid. At least until an improved HSF model arrives, just like with the 8800GT

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

I haven't overclocked my GPU since my 1900XTX as i didn't see much a difference to keep it overclocked. I know that overclocking will help a little but with the newer cards, is it worth it? & where are the reviews between stock and overclocked cards!?!?!

 

[Genx87]

Go buy a wall mount AC unit for 100 bucks. 92F? I wouldnt be playing games, I'd be in a lake or shower all day.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999

Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself

Originally posted by: woolfe9999

Originally posted by: zod96
Your not alone. I too jumped on the bandwagon after reading the reviews from various websites inlcluding anandtech and after messing around with it and benching it against my 8800GT I found that it was barely faster than my GT by like 3-5 fps big deal. Then the heat, my GT idles at 42 without a fan! And loadsabout 54 using the S1 cooler. Then's their's IQ, the GT had much better IQ in the games that I played, BF2 COD4 Oblivion. That's why I never believe most website reviews. I buy the card from a place that offers 30 day money back policy so I can test the card myself and decide. In the end the 4850 was ok, but it was certainly not a 8800GT killer far from it. I have no idea how websites said the 4850 is faster than a 9800GTX, in my book no way, its more like neck and neck with the GT but with way more heat and more power consumed. I'm glad I kept my GT over the 4850 and have no regrets because its a better card

Based on you having an aftermarket cooler on the GT, I'm guessing that card is over-clocked, whereas your 4850 is not, right?

- woolfe

ZING! People seem to do this alot "My new stock clocked card is barely faster than my previous highly overclocked card"

Indeed, it's the second time I've bothered to point this out in just a month on this board, and I've noticed this as a probable issue many other times without bothering to comment. When a new card comes out, it is never factory OCed, and sometimes it's still locked and not OCable at all. People will then compare the older OCed card to the new stock clocked card and be wondering why they aren't seeing the same performance delta as the review sites. Well that's because the review sites know what they're doing and know how to ensure an apples to apples comparison. Hence, unless otherwise stated, cards listed in their tables are always stock vs. stock.

That said, the CPU limitation discussed previously is likely the larger issue here. OCing the 4850 would probably buy a couple more FPS, but bumping the CPU to a quad@3.8 ghz would likely be a larger bump at that resolution.

All of these recent discussions on CPU limitations have convinced me that it isn't worth bothering upgrading my 8800 gts 320 until I first upgrade my e6750. Nehalim/Shanghai are looking more and more attractive all the time, especially for those of us at 1600x1050 or lower.

- woolfe

You are guessing completely wrong... The 8800GT was unstable with the stock cooling, just like the 4850, and if it wasn't unstable the same 80c+ degrees were showing which scared people... so the good manufacturers started selling them with after market cooling to begin with... Even with after market cooling you were very unlikely to OC that card, since it was so damn hot.

8800GT evolution:
1. first version, fan stuck at 27%, crashing, dying, and burning. People modded the fanspeed.
2. Bios fix to make the fan scale.
3. Bigger stock fan. still too hot.
4. All the manufacturers completely ditched the stock fan, even the bigger one, and went with third party HSF assemblies, giving excellent thermals and noise.

4850 evolution:
1. first version, fan stuck at low speed, speedstep broken... crashing,dying and burning, people mod the fanspeed.
2. Bios fix for speedstep from MSI, people mod it for fanspeed and put it on their cards.

I expect the next steps are:
3. Bios fix to make fan scale.
4. Bigger stock fan.
5. All the manufacturers will completely ditch the stock fan and go to 3rd party HSF assemblies giving excellent thermals and noise.

If you were uncomfortable putting after market cooling on the 8800GT then you should not have bought it, (or bought one with after market cooling), just like the 4850.
I bought a 8800GTS 512, which had a better stock cooler but still inadequate...
I fried the first two... the third one i modded the fanspeed, then I returned it and got an XFX one who worked right out of the box...

I recommend people wait until step 5 is implemented to buy a 4850 unless they intend to put an aftermarket cooler on it and flash the bios themselves. At least step 3 or 4 to have a card that actually WORKS without modification.

 

[woolfe9999]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: woolfe9999

Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself

Originally posted by: woolfe9999

Originally posted by: zod96
Your not alone. I too jumped on the bandwagon after reading the reviews from various websites inlcluding anandtech and after messing around with it and benching it against my 8800GT I found that it was barely faster than my GT by like 3-5 fps big deal. Then the heat, my GT idles at 42 without a fan! And loadsabout 54 using the S1 cooler. Then's their's IQ, the GT had much better IQ in the games that I played, BF2 COD4 Oblivion. That's why I never believe most website reviews. I buy the card from a place that offers 30 day money back policy so I can test the card myself and decide. In the end the 4850 was ok, but it was certainly not a 8800GT killer far from it. I have no idea how websites said the 4850 is faster than a 9800GTX, in my book no way, its more like neck and neck with the GT but with way more heat and more power consumed. I'm glad I kept my GT over the 4850 and have no regrets because its a better card

Based on you having an aftermarket cooler on the GT, I'm guessing that card is over-clocked, whereas your 4850 is not, right?

- woolfe

ZING! People seem to do this alot "My new stock clocked card is barely faster than my previous highly overclocked card"

Indeed, it's the second time I've bothered to point this out in just a month on this board, and I've noticed this as a probable issue many other times without bothering to comment. When a new card comes out, it is never factory OCed, and sometimes it's still locked and not OCable at all. People will then compare the older OCed card to the new stock clocked card and be wondering why they aren't seeing the same performance delta as the review sites. Well that's because the review sites know what they're doing and know how to ensure an apples to apples comparison. Hence, unless otherwise stated, cards listed in their tables are always stock vs. stock.

That said, the CPU limitation discussed previously is likely the larger issue here. OCing the 4850 would probably buy a couple more FPS, but bumping the CPU to a quad@3.8 ghz would likely be a larger bump at that resolution.

All of these recent discussions on CPU limitations have convinced me that it isn't worth bothering upgrading my 8800 gts 320 until I first upgrade my e6750. Nehalim/Shanghai are looking more and more attractive all the time, especially for those of us at 1600x1050 or lower.

- woolfe

You are guessing completely wrong... The 8800GT was unstable with the stock cooling, just like the 4850, and if it wasn't unstable the same 80c+ degrees were showing which scared people... so the good manufacturers started selling them with after market cooling to begin with... Even with after market cooling you were very unlikely to OC that card, since it was so damn hot.

If you were uncomfortable putting after market cooling on the 8800GT then you should not have bought it, (or bought one with after market cooling), just like the 4850.
I bought a 8800GTS 512, which had a better stock cooler but still inadequate...
I fried the first two... the third one i modded the fanspeed, then I returned it and got an XFX one who worked right out of the box...

I'm not getting how the instability of the 8800gt with stock cooling has any bearing on the issue of Zod's apples to oranges benchmarking method wherein he compares an OCed 8800 gt vs. a stock 4850. The fact is, that card is stock 650 mhz but is sold as high as 700mhz, meaning with a top notch aftermarket, it can undoubtedly be pushed a bit higher. That isn't a tremendous overclock, but it's an overclock nonetheless. And I didn't guess wrong; Zod already admitted that his GT is OCed. I think it rather a valid point to mention that when people compare new and old cards, they need to go stock vs. stock, like the review sites do. That error is too often made by people on this board.

That said, I didn't overplay the importance of the issue. I said it would likely only account for a few frames, and the larger issue is the CPU limitation.

- woolfe

 

[Foxery]

Originally posted by: shangshang
1. people keep harping on my room temp at 92F! Stop it! I have resided to NOT game when the temp gets that high. So the issues I have now is NOT when room temp is 92F+. Furthermore, even when my room temp is 92F, the 4850 under load was about 93C, which according to AMD, is WITHIN SPECS.

Time for some junior high school science. The video card is being cooled using the air in your room. The hotter your air, the less effective the cooling can be. It's like asking why throwing an ice cube on a frying pan melts, when ice is supposed to make things cold.

"Within specs" only means that it won't burn up and die.

4. games stability is my biggest issues. Yesterday, was playing CoD4 and suddenly the PC just froze with my Visual Studio debugger popping up! LOL that was the first for me, a debugger popping up.

Monthly releases have done absolute wonders for ATI's driver quality. Either something else is clogging up your system, or you overheated enough to throw an error. (Just not enough to fail entirely)

 

[roguerower]

Not regretting a damn thing. Upgraded from a Dell M70 Workstation Notebook w/ a Quadro gfx card to a E8400 and a Visiontek 4850. Using the catalyst mod I brought down the temps to 45 Idle and 70 load.

I'm running dual 19" acer lcds at 1680x1050 and even in games like WIC and Supcom where you can run 2 at once this thing is steady as a rock.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Foxery

Originally posted by: shangshang
1. people keep harping on my room temp at 92F! Stop it! I have resided to NOT game when the temp gets that high. So the issues I have now is NOT when room temp is 92F+. Furthermore, even when my room temp is 92F, the 4850 under load was about 93C, which according to AMD, is WITHIN SPECS.

Time for some junior high school science. The video card is being cooled using the air in your room. The hotter your air, the less effective the cooling can be. It's like asking why throwing an ice cube on a frying pan melts, when ice is supposed to make things cold.

"Within specs" only means that it won't burn up and die.

4. games stability is my biggest issues. Yesterday, was playing CoD4 and suddenly the PC just froze with my Visual Studio debugger popping up! LOL that was the first for me, a debugger popping up.

Monthly releases have done absolute wonders for ATI's driver quality. Either something else is clogging up your system, or you overheated enough to throw an error. (Just not enough to fail entirely)

time for some highschool level law education.. if a company says it is within spec, then it should work....
the card should work up to 105c. it does not. It starts having issues at above 85c like every other card.


As for the debugger, it has nothing to do with AMD.. if you have visual studio then it replaces windows crash warning with a debugger... That bastard persists even after uninstalling visual studio (giving an error about not finding the debugger), and I had to reformat to get rid of it in the past. It just means your game crashes... most likely cuase of your temps and or drivers. (8.6 is the only driver i have that doesn't crash the 4850 on city of heroes, but has other issues with the 4850)...

All that being said I don't regret my purchase, but it is definitely not for everyone.

 

[shangshang]

Originally posted by: Foxery

Time for some junior high school science. The video card is being cooled using the air in your room. The hotter your air, the less effective the cooling can be. It's like asking why throwing an ice cube on a frying pan melts, when ice is supposed to make things cold.

"Within specs" only means that it won't burn up and die.

It took you this long to figure this out? You're a genius.

 

[shangshang]

Well now I'm a bit worried about AMD viability as a company! AMD stock has just hit a 5 yr low because Intel is romping its ass, and I'm wondering should AMD goes out of business or get bought out, I wonder what's that going to do with future drivers release and their quality. One thing is for sure, ever since ATI has been bought out by AMD, drivers quality/stability are not what they used to be.

Going forward, I'm gonna have to think twice about purchasing anything from AMD, unless it can be had at a huge discount. I really have to think AMD financial situation is causing all these quality control issues. Rumors in the Valley is that AMD engineers are busy sending out resumes.

 

[taltamir]

are you kidding? ATI had atrocious drivers... AMD releases drivers that are considered far more stable then nvidias... and the best all around. They release drivers once a month.

AMD solved 5 major installation bugs within a month of aquiring ATI, bugs that I have complained about since 2002, which could seriously mess up the OS when someone tried to upgrade ATI Drivers... It was a pain fixing broken computers due to ATI drivers, this pain is gone with the AMD aquisition. Back in the day i would not use an ATI card if it was free because of the drivers...

Your worry about how long drivers would be avilable could equaly be applied to nvidia.. nvidia just took a 25% hit to stock prices, is lagging behind AMD in video cards, and has nothing against intel and AMD who are setting up to grind it with their locked up platforms...


To the OP... you said you took to not playing at 92f ambiant anymore... what temp do you cool the room to before playing and getting the crashes?
Are you willing to try to bios fix?

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

I'd say they are busy making the drivers right.

 

[woolfe9999]

Originally posted by: shangshang
Well now I'm a bit worried about AMD viability as a company! AMD stock has just hit a 5 yr low because Intel is romping its ass, and I'm wondering should AMD goes out of business or get bought out, I wonder what's that going to do with future drivers release and their quality. One thing is for sure, ever since ATI has been bought out by AMD, drivers quality/stability are not what they used to be.

Going forward, I'm gonna have to think twice about purchasing anything from AMD, unless it can be had at a huge discount. I really have to think AMD financial situation is causing all these quality control issues. Rumors in the Valley is that AMD engineers are busy sending out resumes.

Right now the GPU division is the viable aspect of the company, meaning if AMD as a whole goes under, its GPU division will get bought out whole by another company. That's basically a guaranty.

- woolfe

 

[Magusigne]

Methinks The OP is an Nvidia plant (Eyeshift)

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

Originally posted by: Powernick50
Methinks The OP is an Nvidia plant (Eyeshift)

lol, could be

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: shangshang
Well now I'm a bit worried about AMD viability as a company! AMD stock has just hit a 5 yr low because Intel is romping its ass, and I'm wondering should AMD goes out of business or get bought out, I wonder what's that going to do with future drivers release and their quality. One thing is for sure, ever since ATI has been bought out by AMD, drivers quality/stability are not what they used to be.

Going forward, I'm gonna have to think twice about purchasing anything from AMD, unless it can be had at a huge discount. I really have to think AMD financial situation is causing all these quality control issues. Rumors in the Valley is that AMD engineers are busy sending out resumes.

Well I read this entire hack job on ATI/AMD. This is very discouraging thread. Not for the 4850 GPU but for what the thread implies.

Even tho I haven't bought the 280 . I will . But I can say right now . I will do the same type of thread . Slamming NV (drivers and PC crashes). for zero good reason. But hay fair play is fair play.

This thread smells bad . I am sure many sense the same thing.

Heat issue was very well covered by reviewers. ATI drivers being worse than NV . NOT LIKELY. But I will wait and see on that one. This thread has a stink to it.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: shangshang
Well now I'm a bit worried about AMD viability as a company! AMD stock has just hit a 5 yr low because Intel is romping its ass, and I'm wondering should AMD goes out of business or get bought out, I wonder what's that going to do with future drivers release and their quality. One thing is for sure, ever since ATI has been bought out by AMD, drivers quality/stability are not what they used to be.

Going forward, I'm gonna have to think twice about purchasing anything from AMD, unless it can be had at a huge discount. I really have to think AMD financial situation is causing all these quality control issues. Rumors in the Valley is that AMD engineers are busy sending out resumes.

Their drivers have been solid since 9700 days.
As you know modding a bios is risky and voids the warranty.As to temps every review meantions these cards run hot so taking precautions seems to be common sense.


Very few people are having stability issues etc like you are having,my Gigabyte 4870 can reach 92c if I run FurMark(awesome little program) but it stays stable and solid with no artifacts,idles at 79/80c.

I had more issues with Nvidia drivers then I ever had with AMD/ATI drivers,just uninstalling Nvidia drivers was an issue even after precautions I took like uninstalling via Control Panel then booting into safe mode and using DriverSweeper,I still had 3 Nvidia dll files trying to load at desktop however regedit soon fixed that problem,Nvidia need to work on a clean uninstalling procedure since not everybody is tech savy like me or AT members here.


Btw got to love AMD releasing official drivers every month why can't Nvidia do that?..I feel I have the right to comment since I own cards from both companies.

8.7s soon be here next week.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: BTRY B 529th FA BN

Originally posted by: Powernick50
Methinks The OP is an Nvidia plant (Eyeshift)

lol, could be

bull, and i am sick of people making those accusations 10 times a day... i started counting how often i get accused of being an nvidia or AMD plant and its far too often for BOTH.

The guy raises a valid issue. people hang on his prefered room temperature (which he lowered to try and mitage the crashes, unsuccessfully), but it is happening to many who use 72f as well.

This is the EXACT SAME issue that the 8800Gt. it has nothing to do with company. the 4850, like the 8800GT, needs either a replacement fan or fan speed modification to work. It will not work right out of the box. Period.


And nemasis... the fact that AMDs website still, at this very second, does not list the 48xx series in their driver's page is a serious issue. not a "baseless slamming"

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: shangshang
Well now I'm a bit worried about AMD viability as a company! AMD stock has just hit a 5 yr low because Intel is romping its ass, and I'm wondering should AMD goes out of business or get bought out, I wonder what's that going to do with future drivers release and their quality. One thing is for sure, ever since ATI has been bought out by AMD, drivers quality/stability are not what they used to be.

Going forward, I'm gonna have to think twice about purchasing anything from AMD, unless it can be had at a huge discount. I really have to think AMD financial situation is causing all these quality control issues. Rumors in the Valley is that AMD engineers are busy sending out resumes.

Well I read this entire hack job on ATI/AMD. This is very discouraging thread. Not for the 4850 GPU but for what the thread implies.

Even tho I haven't bought the 280 . I will . But I can say right now . I will do the same type of thread . Slamming NV (drivers and PC crashes). for zero good reason. But hay fair play is fair play.

This thread smells bad . I am sure many sense the same thing.

Heat issue was very well covered by reviewers. ATI drivers being worse than NV . NOT LIKELY. But I will wait and see on that one. This thread has a stink to it.

i agree

 

[Mem]

And nemasis... the fact that AMDs website still, at this very second, does not list the 48xx series in their driver's page is a serious issue. not a "baseless slamming"

Moot point really since drivers are supplied on CD with the card besides you can get the 8.6 hotfix drivers at AMD's website(ones I'm using) or even on the net beta 8.7s ,as you know next official release is only a week away.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Mem

And nemasis... the fact that AMDs website still, at this very second, does not list the 48xx series in their driver's page is a serious issue. not a "baseless slamming"

Moot point really since drivers are supplied on CD with the card besides you can get the 8.6 hotfix drivers at AMD's website(ones I'm using) or even on the net beta 8.7s ,as you know next official release is only a week away.

and when it arrives, the issue would be resolved. still, not a baseless accusation.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: Mem

And nemasis... the fact that AMDs website still, at this very second, does not list the 48xx series in their driver's page is a serious issue. not a "baseless slamming"

Moot point really since drivers are supplied on CD with the card besides you can get the 8.6 hotfix drivers at AMD's website(ones I'm using) or even on the net beta 8.7s ,as you know next official release is only a week away.

and when it arrives, the issue would be resolved. still, not a baseless accusation.

Unfortunately if you use a PC you should expect issues at some point in time,very few people here can ever say they never had any issues.

There's plenty of things he can try with regards to cooling etc...

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: BTRY B 529th FA BN

Originally posted by: Powernick50
Methinks The OP is an Nvidia plant (Eyeshift)

lol, could be

bull, and i am sick of people making those accusations 10 times a day... i started counting how often i get accused of being an nvidia or AMD plant and its far too often for BOTH.

The guy raises a valid issue. people hang on his prefered room temperature (which he lowered to try and mitage the crashes, unsuccessfully), but it is happening to many who use 72f as well.

This is the EXACT SAME issue that the 8800Gt. it has nothing to do with company. the 4850, like the 8800GT, needs either a replacement fan or fan speed modification to work. It will not work right out of the box. Period.


And nemasis... the fact that AMDs website still, at this very second, does not list the 48xx series in their driver's page is a serious issue. not a "baseless slamming"[/q]

Yes I am aware this is a new card and drivers aren't out yet that are 4850/4870 listed.

I won't go into driver problems here in this thread but when it comes to who has the worse drivers . NV wins hands down. How many years did it take NV to catch ATI on IQ.
Now all of the sudden I am hearing NV has better IQ. I was going to wait to get the 280 but I will order it today. So until than I will bookmark and return to this thread after . I see how the NV card compares to ATI . If NV has better IQ . I would switch in a heart beat. and proclaim NV master of the gpu.

 

[taltamir]

you are discussing it like an nvidia vs AMD war... this is not an nvidia AMD war zone... this is a case of someone who is unsatisfied with ONE amd product that clearly has serious issues that need resolving.. issues that reoccur in certain specific products for both companies.

He is an unhappy customer, and for a good reason. No need to bash him for that.

I warned people to stay away from the 8800GT until they fixed the fans... I make the same warning about the 4850. And there were other, older products, that needed the same warning.

If you are not going to put aftermarket cooling or modify the fan speed, then this isn't for you. Wait until manufacturers bundle it with 3rd party cooling like they do with the 8800GT.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
How is a E8400@ 3.6GHz causing a CPU bottleneck?!?

And enabling AA on a card that is already chugging in performance?? wouldnt that kill performance even more (and the cards are already at like 20fps)?

what are you getting 20 fps in. which game