Why fight America's war?

[The Green Bean]

talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: hatim
Sultan man leave them alone. They will learn themselves if they want. No use telling them.

So back to the original question.

"Why should muslim coutried help USA in IRAQ when the USA has never helped them in times of need?"

Kuwait, gives many Muslim countries lots of aid, even provided aid for Afghanistan when it was invaded by the Soviets, etc. I believe that the US gave Pakistan alone over $300 millioin and also waived off hundreds of millions of dollars in debt.

I think that some of those are times of need.

 

[edmundoab]

they are the big guys of the world.
Try going against them and you're looking for trouble. Thats how the general impression is.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

This coming from the guy who advocates executions for atheists, homosexuals, and non-Muslims. Yup, that sure is respect for everyone and treating everyone equal.

 

[Sultan]

Again, any system based upon discrimination is inferior. Sorry to break it to you.

Whatever you say pal Your saying so is not going to stop it from being practiced where it is being practiced, nor would it change the minds of Muslims who know it is part of the religion.

The sheer outrage on this forum from your support of a discriminatory system has changed you, at least now you recognize that any racist, discriminatory, etc. opinion on this forum or in most civilized countries will result in outrage. You are quite welcome for this lesson.

Your opinion or opinions of others has no bearing on me. Just because you say I have changed doesnt change me. Please carry on welcoming me

That's because it seems you have a lot to learn.

Thankfully, not from you.

You should respect well grounded opinions not based upon discrimination. I don't care if you care if I don't respect your beliefs. You're obviously much too blinded to think otherwise.

I respect any opinion. They're yours or of whoever presents them, not mine. You can carry on not caring what I do or dont care about Makes the least bit of difference to me.

Nonsense. Now you realize the full outrage that your discriminatory views will bring about.

Nonsense. You can carry on barking, I'm still posting, makes no difference to my views.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Some beliefs aren't meant to be respected - such as apartheid and mass-scale discrimination.

concept of jizyah != apartheid
concept of jizyah != mass-scale discrimination

I'm not specfically saying it is those, just that it belongs in the same group as those - beliefs which shouldn't be respected. Actually if I think about it, it is mass-scale discrimination.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

I am unsure of what exactly I am supposed to learn.

How to build a backward Theocratic government in my own backyard perhaps?

Seeing how far the "Western" world has progressed in such a short amount of time leads me to think that we must have gotten something right, while large parts of the world are rather slowly lurching out of the industrial revolution.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: hatim
Sultan man leave them alone. They will learn themselves if they want. No use telling them.

So back to the original question.

"Why should muslim coutried help USA in IRAQ when the USA has never helped them in times of need?"

Kuwait, gives many Muslim countries lots of aid, even provided aid for Afghanistan when it was invaded by the Soviets, etc. I believe that the US gave Pakistan alone over $300 millioin and also waived off hundreds of millions of dollars in debt.

I think that some of those are times of need.

:thumbsup:

The first example is right. The second though is wrong. The US gave Pakistan about $1.2 billion, but that was because of Pakistan's claim that the cost of Afghanistan war on their economy was to the tune of the above amount. And yes, millions in debt have been waived as a reward to Pakistan for being our ally in the war against terrorism

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Some beliefs aren't meant to be respected - such as apartheid and mass-scale discrimination.

concept of jizyah != apartheid
concept of jizyah != mass-scale discrimination

I'm not specfically saying it is those, just that it belongs in the same group as those - beliefs which shouldn't be respected. Actually if I think about it, it is mass-scale discrimination.

I dont agree. The concept of Jizyah states (amongst many other measures) that the non-Muslims have the choice to enter into this tax treaty. Let me give you a historical example:

The noted (?) historian Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his Call to Islam, states:

?This tax was not imposed on the Christians, as some would have us think, as a penalty for their refusal to accept the Muslim faith. Rather, it was paid by them in common with the other dhimmis or non-Muslim subjects of the state whose religion precluded them from serving in the army, in return for the protection secured for them by the arms of the Muslims. When the people of Hirah contributed the sum agreed upon, they expressly mentioned that they paid this jizyah on condition that ?the Muslims and their leader protect us from those who would oppress us, whether they be Muslims or others.'"

 

[RabidMongoose]

Whatever you say pal Your saying so is not going to stop it from being practiced where it is being practiced, nor would it change the minds of Muslims who know it is part of the religion.

I'm not saying that I'm going to stop it from being practiced. All I'm saying is that it is inferior and outdated. What a surprise - an archaic and now useless tradition from hundreds of years ago is now outdated!

Nonsense. You can carry on barking, I'm still posting, makes no difference to my views.

Don't worry, I'll still try to make you see even if you're going to keep on being blind!

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

Yes, Americans are 'taught that they are above everyone else' when you are spouting open hatred and genocide of atheists and homosexuals. It's obvious that you grew up in a world of hate, racism, and discrimination.

You stay in your backwards country. We're fine in our modern, highly advanced, and tolerant nations.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

I am unsure of what exactly I am supposed to learn.

How to build a backward Theocratic government in my own backyard perhaps?

Seeing how far the "Western" world has progressed in such a short amount of time leads me to think that we must have gotten something right, while large parts of the world are rather slowly lurching out of the industrial revolution.

Every nation/empire has its ups and downs. Once, the sun never set on the British empire. Same can be said of America now, as it has forces from Japan to the Middle East to Europe to the mainland US. An Islamic Theocratic state did work, for a long period of time, as was quite successful. When most of Europe was undergoing the dark ages, the Islamic nation was thriving in arts, sciences and industry.

 

[Sultan]

I'm not saying that I'm going to stop it from being practiced. All I'm saying is that it is inferior and outdated. What a surprise - an archaic and now useless tradition from hundreds of years ago is now outdated!

Again, I'll repeat. What you say and whatever opinion you hold is not going to make a difference to me, or to any other Muslim who knows Jizyah is part of the religion. It is not outdated, nor arhaic, nor inferior and absolutely not discriminatory. You can keep saying otherwise

Don't worry, I'll still try to make you see even if you're going to keep on being blind!

You're most most welcome to carry on trying

 

[RabidMongoose]

Again, I'll repeat. What you say and whatever opinion you hold is not going to make a difference to me, or to any other Muslim who knows Jizyah is part of the religion. It is not outdated, nor arhaic, nor inferior and absolutely not discriminatory. You can keep saying otherwise

It is discriminatory. Maybe you should check it up in the dictionary. It is archaic and outdated as well as inferior. Any system based on a discriminatory foundation is inferior.

You're most most welcome to carry on trying

You can bet on it.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

I am unsure of what exactly I am supposed to learn.

How to build a backward Theocratic government in my own backyard perhaps?

Seeing how far the "Western" world has progressed in such a short amount of time leads me to think that we must have gotten something right, while large parts of the world are rather slowly lurching out of the industrial revolution.

Every nation/empire has its ups and downs. Once, the sun never set on the British empire. Same can be said of America now, as it has forces from Japan to the Middle East to Europe to the mainland US. An Islamic Theocratic state did work, for a long period of time, as was quite successful. When most of Europe was undergoing the dark ages, the Islamic nation was thriving in arts, sciences and industry.

It could be argued that the world has advanced more in the last 200 years than in the previous 2000. With credit mainly due to Europeans and Americans.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: hatim
Sultan man leave them alone. They will learn themselves if they want. No use telling them.

So back to the original question.

"Why should muslim coutried help USA in IRAQ when the USA has never helped them in times of need?"

Kuwait, gives many Muslim countries lots of aid, even provided aid for Afghanistan when it was invaded by the Soviets, etc. I believe that the US gave Pakistan alone over $300 millioin and also waived off hundreds of millions of dollars in debt.

I think that some of those are times of need.

:thumbsup:

The first example is right. The second though is wrong. The US gave Pakistan about $1.2 billion, but that was because of Pakistan's claim that the cost of Afghanistan war on their economy was to the tune of the above amount. And yes, millions in debt have been waived as a reward to Pakistan for being our ally in the war against terrorism

More countries than just Pakistan are given aid.

 

[Jeff7181]

hatim, I think you, like many non-Americans have a VERY distorted view of what America and it's citizens are all about. I think you also have a distorted view of what America's motive in this war against Saddam actually is.

Your profile says you're from the Phillipines, but it also says you're in Alabama... so I assume you moved from the Phillipines to the US?

If so, I suggest you have a little more respect for MY (a natural born citizen) country... which has so graciously accepted you into this land of opportunity. If you were at a party you disliked a great deal you'd leave, so please, if you dislike America that much, leave.

If I have wrongly assumed something, I apologize... but America doesn't need citizens who dislike the country.

 

[Sultan]

It is discriminatory. Maybe you should check it up in the dictionary. It is archaic and outdated as well as inferior. Any system based on a discriminatory foundation is inferior.

It is not discriminatory. I dont need to check it anywhere. It is not archaic, and not outdated, and not inferior.

You can bet on it.

More power to you.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: hatim
Sultan man leave them alone. They will learn themselves if they want. No use telling them.

So back to the original question.

"Why should muslim coutried help USA in IRAQ when the USA has never helped them in times of need?"

Kuwait, gives many Muslim countries lots of aid, even provided aid for Afghanistan when it was invaded by the Soviets, etc. I believe that the US gave Pakistan alone over $300 millioin and also waived off hundreds of millions of dollars in debt.

I think that some of those are times of need.

:thumbsup:

The first example is right. The second though is wrong. The US gave Pakistan about $1.2 billion, but that was because of Pakistan's claim that the cost of Afghanistan war on their economy was to the tune of the above amount. And yes, millions in debt have been waived as a reward to Pakistan for being our ally in the war against terrorism

More countries than just Pakistan are given aid.

I agree, I was only correcting your second example. The first is a correct one.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

I am unsure of what exactly I am supposed to learn.

How to build a backward Theocratic government in my own backyard perhaps?

Seeing how far the "Western" world has progressed in such a short amount of time leads me to think that we must have gotten something right, while large parts of the world are rather slowly lurching out of the industrial revolution.

Every nation/empire has its ups and downs. Once, the sun never set on the British empire. Same can be said of America now, as it has forces from Japan to the Middle East to Europe to the mainland US. An Islamic Theocratic state did work, for a long period of time, as was quite successful. When most of Europe was undergoing the dark ages, the Islamic nation was thriving in arts, sciences and industry.

It could be argued that the world has advanced more in the last 200 years than in the previous 2000. With credit mainly due to Europeans and Americans.

It can also be argued that they built upon the foundations laid by Eastern civilizations. Or used the resources of Eastern nations for their progress. Or is based on many vices such as slavery, colonialism, etc. I dont diagree with you on the point that the Western world has rapidly progressed due to its policies and government. But to say that the Western way of life is the correct or best way of governance is not true. China is rapidly progessing and they have a Communist system in place.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

I am unsure of what exactly I am supposed to learn.

How to build a backward Theocratic government in my own backyard perhaps?

Seeing how far the "Western" world has progressed in such a short amount of time leads me to think that we must have gotten something right, while large parts of the world are rather slowly lurching out of the industrial revolution.

Every nation/empire has its ups and downs. Once, the sun never set on the British empire. Same can be said of America now, as it has forces from Japan to the Middle East to Europe to the mainland US. An Islamic Theocratic state did work, for a long period of time, as was quite successful. When most of Europe was undergoing the dark ages, the Islamic nation was thriving in arts, sciences and industry.

It could be argued that the world has advanced more in the last 200 years than in the previous 2000. With credit mainly due to Europeans and Americans.

It can also be argued that they built upon the foundations laid by Eastern civilizations. Or used the resources of Eastern nations for their progress. Or is based on many vices such as slavery, colonialism, etc. I dont diagree with you on the point that the Western world has rapidly progressed due to its policies and government. But to say that the Western way of life is the correct or best way of governance is not true. China is rapidly progessing and they have a Communist system in place.

So, the middile east never had anything to do with trading slaves? Well that is news to me.

European Colonialism did cause serious problems, Africa is a massive disaster maily because of it. Many ex-colonial states have done very well though. This includes the US.

The American system works so well because it acutally recognizes the fact that human beings are naturally selfish. It manages to balance, better than most governments, that selfishness against the good of the society with a relative minimum of government control.

One of the primary problems with the so-called Communist systems is that there is no incentive to change or progress. The status quo is good enough.

China is nothing like a Communist state. It is more like an old Stalinist state that hase been crumbling against the slow, but ever present forces, of an open market world.

 

[Sultan]

So, the middile east never had anything to do with trading slaves? Well that is news to me.

European Colonialism did cause serious problems, Africa is a massive disaster maily because of it. Many ex-colonial states have done very well though. This includes the US.

The American system works so well because it acutally recognizes the fact that human beings are naturally selfish. It manages to balance, better than most governments, that selfishness against the good of the society with a relative minimum of government control.

One of the primary problems with the so-called Communist systems is that there is no incentive to change or progress. The status quo is good enough.

China is nothing like a Communist state. It is more like an old Stalinist state that hase been crumbling against the slow, but ever present forces, of an open market world.

Besides the point. You gave an argument, I gave counter-arguments. The American system works and works very well, but it came about after 200 years of trial and correcting errors. On the contrary, the Islamic theocratic system worked on the get-go, and slowly declined as the leaders and the people moved away from the religious doctrines as laid down in Islamic law. Even the fall took a few hundred years to actually materialise.

 

[SuperStrokey]

Whoa there, dont be grouping canadians and americans together. We are very different from americans and do not share hardly any of the same ideals. Canadian media is much different from american media (neither better nor worse). To say that canadian think to much of themselves is state something that is pretty much ignorant. Its is obvioulsy stated by a person that has little or no understanding of the canadian people, culture or ideals. I dont insult teh states so dont insult canada. Fair is fair.

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

 

[RabidMongoose]

It is not discriminatory. I dont need to check it anywhere. It is not archaic, and not outdated, and not inferior.

It clearly is discriminatory. It discriminates between those of Muslim beliefs and those of non-Muslim beliefs. Clearly discriminatory. Any discriminatory tax system is inferior.

And yes, it is outdated and archaic. A discriminatory system that has its foundations and purpose during tribal times. Clearly outdated as it is no longer needed.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: hatim
talking about a 10 year time frame\

Also one thing Ive learned: Americans/Canadians always think too much of themseleves. Leave them alone, they will learn if they want.

Well anyways, equality: We will all lie in a grave similar sized similar state alone.

So then all humans are created equal. Like a plain blank peice of paper. Then whatever is taught to them, is written onto that paper and thats how the person shapes up. Americans have been taught that they are above everyone else and that they can disrespect everyone/anyone they feel like. I can see how they dump old people into nursing homes. Well, a drop of ink is not going to change those views. Let them be.

I am unsure of what exactly I am supposed to learn.

How to build a backward Theocratic government in my own backyard perhaps?

Seeing how far the "Western" world has progressed in such a short amount of time leads me to think that we must have gotten something right, while large parts of the world are rather slowly lurching out of the industrial revolution.

It's war that destroys civilizitions, remember that before the crusaders the Arabe world was like the western world of today (advance in science, mathematics, philosophy etc) and the west was the opposite. After the fall of the Abbasids the biggest library in the world in Baghdad was destroyed by the mongolian army. When the crusaders invaded the arabe world, they brought back home some arabic books in which they were translated in latin. These books influenced many western lecturers in the 14th century and that created the renaissance (the transitional movement in Europe).

I truly believe that thanks to the advancements made by the arabes (Abbasids empire), the Western world succeed in progressing rapidly