Why fight America's war?

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Doboji
Ok sorry hope this doesnt confuse you with the truth.....

The Jizyah does not apply to all non-muslims... only to Jews and Christians... other religions are not permitted to exist within muslim society at all. Furthermore... Muslim doctrine does not allow for the construction of non-muslim places of worship, nor does it allow for the open practice of non-muslim religions.

-Max

Disgusting if anyone wishes or currently practices such a type of government.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: hatim
You people suit yourselves. Im here to discuss politics not religion. You keep yours and let me keep mine.

Sure as long as you're allowed to tax me abit more for mine, right? I thought this whole thread was a bout right and wrong, the morality of america's actions? How is religion not involved in morality? How can you discuss the middle east and not bring up Islam considering a major chunk or our main oppisition fource consists of islamic fundamentalist.

You want to drop the religion thing, because you like pointing out how horrible our actions have been you can't defend the horrible things Nuslims have done in the name of Islam. I'll be the first to admit chrsitianity has its share of things to atone for and that we should learn from them. Too bd you can't do the same for Islam.

so you are saying apart from all the horrible things Bush has done in the name of America?

Your response doesn't even make since. I asked you point blankhow is religion not involved in a question of morality and you won't answer.

Then I said a lot of bad things have been done in the name of christianity. You're response is "apart from what Bush has done in the name of America?" What does that mean? Sure christianity has done many bad things including (in my opinion) Bush's involving us in Iraq. But lets be honest here. Even if Bush wasn't president you'd still hate us for something over there. We haven't even really touched the debate over Isreal yet and you guys love us for that one. That one was around long before Bush came into office.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Todd33

it's not 'coulter types" it's reasonable types, this guy is way off base.

I'd say a majority of the world thinks this way. If anything, we in America, insulated with crappy media like Fox news are the ones 'off base'. We get so wrapped in the flag screaming about 9/11 all the time that we forget or don't care how everyone else sees us. Like what's here name said "We are a good country when we do good things", which lately has not been much.

I love how everyone loves to use Fox News as the example of all news media... Fox News is ONE NEWS AGENCY. We live in this country called the USA, where we have incredible access to this thing called the "internet". We aren't insulated from the world... the world news is at our fingertips... we have more cable, and sattelite TV than anywhere else in the world. The whole FOX NEWS argument is plain old rubbish.

And Hatim, you terrorist sympathizing scumbucket.... I have a few questions for you so that we can garner a better picture of your ideology.

1. Should Spain be returned to muslim control?

2. Is it ok to kill Hindus?

3. Is the United States an extension of the crusades?

4. Would you classify Osama Bin Laden as a terrorist?

-Max

1. No, unless conquored
2. Depends. If they are living in their own coutry, or are traders or anything. NO. Unless you control thier resident land...and before that there are 100's of questions asked so its very unlikely.
3. I dont beleive in the crusades. They were fought by rougue Islamic regimes. Banul Ummayad and Banul Abbas (They killed the prophet's grandson)
4. Depends. Not without proof.

1. But muslims have the right to attempt to conquer spain?
2. What about a random Hindu wandering in Pakistan.
3. I'll rephrase... do you believe the United States are eviol infidels attempting to destroy Islam?
4. Do you believe Sept 11th was a terrorist attack? Who do you believe did it?

 

[Sultan]

Again, you show you are so blinded. I did not support this war. It was immoral to support a murderous dictator, just as it is immoral to have a war for mainly economic and power reasons. Unfortunately, this is how the world works. Welcome to reality.

:thumbsup: Unfortunately, this country has committed both of the above immoral acts.

I admitted both. You apparently did not. Glad to see that you are learning from this discussion.

Perhaps you dont read my posts. I admitted that Iraqis stood up against Saddam. You didnt admit Iraqis are standing up against the US. Infact, you were not aware of this at all

Sure, I'm Iraqi along with every other religion and nationality. I also know 432.4 Iraqis who are all happy about the US getting rid of Saddam. Nice to see you now back off your logic that would have let genocide in Rwanda be OK. Glad to have educated you in that respect.

I'm sorry, just what qualifies you as an Iraqi? Along with every other religion and nationality? And whats this 432.4?

The US did not go in alone. You seem to forget about the UK. In addition there is that 'coalition'.

As stated before, the US can strong-arm other nations, through different means. Please read my previous other posts. A majority of the world's nation opposed this war. 34 nations are part of the coalition (much of them contributing "support" staff). If i remember correctly, the UN is composed of over 200 sovereign nations.

According to you, it doesn't matter. The people should decide for themselves! Who are you to say that Iraq did not have causes for military intervention, regardless of economic gain?

According to me, Iraq did not have THE causes for military intervention as stated by this cuurent administration.

We went into this war for power and money. France and Russia mainly opposed this war for the same reasons, not because there were no grounds for it.

Glad you admitted that. You're missing Germany, China, India, Brazil, Argentina, Indonesia and the remainder of the 150+ countries who did not support this war. Again, read my previous posts. The first UN Resolution back in October was based on American intelligence and the world had sympathy for us b/c of 9/11. When it was evident that the evidence were false, the majority of the world's nations opposed military intervention.

There's this magical event called an election. You may have heard of it. If people don't like Bush, then they can vote him out of office without fear of death and destruction. It's really quite a concept.

Good concept. I can honestly say that this does not necessarily work elsewhere, case in point, my home country, Pakistan.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Out of curiousity, what has your country done to help others in need?

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan
All non-muslims receive protection under an Islamic government. They are taxed a bit more, and the tax is called Jizyah.

Well that's messed up. Is this commonly practiced?

not in this day and age.

By paying this tax, non-muslims are given freedom to do almost whatever they want amonst themselves as long as they dont interfere mith muslim affairs

And by what justification do they need to pay for this freedom?

Serices provided. Including security, and what not.

Ok sorry hope this doesnt confuse you with the truth.....

The Jizyah does not apply to all non-muslims... only to Jews and Christians... other religions are not permitted to exist within muslim society at all. Furthermore... Muslim doctrine does not allow for the construction of non-muslim places of worship, nor does it allow for the open practice of non-muslim religions.

-Max

and were did it say that it's only Jews and Christians, and plz tell me which doctrine in Islam that construction of non-muslim places of worship and open practices is not allowed?

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Doboji
Ok sorry hope this doesnt confuse you with the truth.....

The Jizyah does not apply to all non-muslims... only to Jews and Christians... other religions are not permitted to exist within muslim society at all. Furthermore... Muslim doctrine does not allow for the construction of non-muslim places of worship, nor does it allow for the open practice of non-muslim religions.

-Max

Disgusting if anyone wishes or currently practices such a type of government.

Saudi Arabia...

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

All non-muslims receive protection under an Islamic government. They are taxed a bit more, and the tax is called Jizyah.

Do you agree with Islamic governments? Do you agree with that tax?

Whenever it works, (and it has), people have flocked to it. When it doesnt, people stay away from it.

Religiously speaking, Muslims are supposed to be taxed only 2.5% which is "religious" alms-giving. The state can impose other taxes depending on economic conditions.

As for my agreeing to Islamic governments, yes, I agree to them, because I have read about them working very well.

Do I agree with that tax? Yes... but based on the little information given above, you might not arrive to the same conclusion. There's a host of rights and priveleges that non-Muslims receive.

Do they get more rights than muslims? Honestly this seems like first class discriminatino to me. Is there not a religion on this planet that teaches tolerance?

Equal but different

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan
All non-muslims receive protection under an Islamic government. They are taxed a bit more, and the tax is called Jizyah.

Well that's messed up. Is this commonly practiced?

what seems illogical to you may not seem the same to others. keep an open mind

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: hatim

1. No, unless conquored
2. Depends. If they are living in their own coutry, or are traders or anything. NO. Unless you control thier resident land...and before that there are 100's of questions asked so its very unlikely.
3. I dont beleive in the crusades. They were fought by rougue Islamic regimes. Banul Ummayad and Banul Abbas (They killed the prophet's grandson)
4. Depends. Not without proof.

Why do countries need to be based upon religion? The only Hindu country in the world is Nepal. So do you advocate the murder of all outside of Nepal?

 

[RabidMongoose]

I'm sorry, just what qualifies you as an Iraqi? Along with every other religion and nationality? And whats this 432.4?

It is to show that anyone can say anything on an Internet forum. I don't care if your neighbor is an Iraqi. I don't care if you're Iraqi.

As stated before, the US can strong-arm other nations, through different means. Please read my previous other posts. A majority of the world's nation opposed this war. 34 nations are part of the coalition (much of them contributing "support" staff). If i remember correctly, the UN is composed of over 200 sovereign nations.

Again, the US did not go into this war alone. You haven't disproved that yet.

According to me, Iraq did not have THE causes for military intervention as stated by this cuurent administration.

Stated by the current administration? No. But it may have had causes for an invasion.

Glad you admitted that. You're missing Germany, China, India, Brazil, Argentina, Indonesia and the remainder of the 150+ countries who did not support this war. Again, read my previous posts. The first UN Resolution back in October was based on American intelligence and the world had sympathy for us b/c of 9/11. When it was evident that the evidence were false, the majority of the world's nations opposed military intervention.

I don't believe that Germany opposed this war due to economic reasons. I believe that it was more of a political issue at the time than economic reasons. I'm focusing on Russia and France as they were the main 'root' of the opposition.

Good concept. I can honestly say that this does not necessarily work elsewhere, case in point, my home country, Pakistan.

Well that's sad if your home country cannot be democratic. Hopefully Iraq can be different.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan
All non-muslims receive protection under an Islamic government. They are taxed a bit more, and the tax is called Jizyah.

Well that's messed up. Is this commonly practiced?

what seems illogical to you may not seem the same to others. keep an open mind

Some things shouldn't be looked at with an open mind. Genocide, discrimination, etc. should not be looked at with an open mind.

Apartheid supporter: Keep an open mind! It seems logical to us!

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: hatim
You people suit yourselves. Im here to discuss politics not religion. You keep yours and let me keep mine.

Sure as long as you're allowed to tax me abit more for mine, right? I thought this whole thread was a bout right and wrong, the morality of america's actions? How is religion not involved in morality? How can you discuss the middle east and not bring up Islam considering a major chunk or our main oppisition fource consists of islamic fundamentalist.

You want to drop the religion thing, because you like pointing out how horrible our actions have been you can't defend the horrible things Nuslims have done in the name of Islam. I'll be the first to admit chrsitianity has its share of things to atone for and that we should learn from them. Too bd you can't do the same for Islam.

Stuck on the tax issue?

And what oh so horrible things have Muslims done in the name of Islam? People make mistakes, not religions. I dont say all Christians are messed up coz of some priests screwing little boys.

 

[imported_tss4]

Well, looks like we've finally found something that the right and the left can agree on. Hatim is one crazy, scary person. Sultan's approval of an openly discriminatory government really does a lot to support his whole morality arguement too.

I swear, I think the only thing hatim has accomplished here is make me consider what the conservatives have said on this forum again.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Todd33

it's not 'coulter types" it's reasonable types, this guy is way off base.

I'd say a majority of the world thinks this way. If anything, we in America, insulated with crappy media like Fox news are the ones 'off base'. We get so wrapped in the flag screaming about 9/11 all the time that we forget or don't care how everyone else sees us. Like what's here name said "We are a good country when we do good things", which lately has not been much.

I love how everyone loves to use Fox News as the example of all news media... Fox News is ONE NEWS AGENCY. We live in this country called the USA, where we have incredible access to this thing called the "internet". We aren't insulated from the world... the world news is at our fingertips... we have more cable, and sattelite TV than anywhere else in the world. The whole FOX NEWS argument is plain old rubbish.

And Hatim, you terrorist sympathizing scumbucket.... I have a few questions for you so that we can garner a better picture of your ideology.

1. Should Spain be returned to muslim control?

2. Is it ok to kill Hindus?

3. Is the United States an extension of the crusades?

4. Would you classify Osama Bin Laden as a terrorist?

-Max

1. No, unless conquored
2. Depends. If they are living in their own coutry, or are traders or anything. NO. Unless you control thier resident land...and before that there are 100's of questions asked so its very unlikely.
3. I dont beleive in the crusades. They were fought by rougue Islamic regimes. Banul Ummayad and Banul Abbas (They killed the prophet's grandson)
4. Depends. Not without proof.

1. But muslims have the right to attempt to conquer spain?
2. What about a random Hindu wandering in Pakistan.
3. I'll rephrase... do you believe the United States are eviol infidels attempting to destroy Islam?
4. Do you believe Sept 11th was a terrorist attack? Who do you believe did it?

1. Why not?
2. Illegal
3. No.
4. Terrorist definate. Im running no CIA so I won't comment.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: hatim

Serices provided. Including security, and what not.

Why do they need security? What services? Why can't everyone just be treated the same?

so you don't pay state taxes?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan
All non-muslims receive protection under an Islamic government. They are taxed a bit more, and the tax is called Jizyah.

Well that's messed up. Is this commonly practiced?

what seems illogical to you may not seem the same to others. keep an open mind

Sorry, I don't keep an open mind for DISCRIMINATION.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

All non-muslims receive protection under an Islamic government. They are taxed a bit more, and the tax is called Jizyah.

Do you agree with Islamic governments? Do you agree with that tax?

Whenever it works, (and it has), people have flocked to it. When it doesnt, people stay away from it.

Religiously speaking, Muslims are supposed to be taxed only 2.5% which is "religious" alms-giving. The state can impose other taxes depending on economic conditions.

As for my agreeing to Islamic governments, yes, I agree to them, because I have read about them working very well.

Do I agree with that tax? Yes... but based on the little information given above, you might not arrive to the same conclusion. There's a host of rights and priveleges that non-Muslims receive.

That's pretty barbaric. Why don't you support governments where everyone is equal? Why can't they be treated like everyone else instead of having a host of rights and privileges?

Do I say its barbaric that Christian priests are always males? And celibate? Why dont you support your church where everyone is equal? Freedom has its price. All Muslims under an Islamic government have a "religious" tax - 2.5% - the non-Muslims do not pay that. If Islam said pay that, then you'd raise hue and cry, why, oh why should I pay that if I am not a Muslim.

You just want to argue for the sake of arguing :roll:

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: tss4
Well, looks like we've finally found something that the right and the left can agree on. Hatim is one crazy, scary person. Sultan's approval of an openly discriminatory government really does a lot to support his whole morality arguement too.

:thumbsup:

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: hatim

Serices provided. Including security, and what not.

Why do they need security? What services? Why can't everyone just be treated the same?

so you don't pay state taxes?

Actually I don't. Can you answer my questions now?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Do I say its barbaric that Christian priests are always males? And celibate? Why dont you support your church where everyone is equal? Freedom has its price. All Muslims under an Islamic government have a "religious" tax - 2.5% - the non-Muslims do not pay that. If Islam said pay that, then you'd raise hue and cry, why, oh why should I pay that if I am not a Muslim.

You just want to argue for the sake of arguing :roll:

Look Fundie McDiscriminatory, I'm not Christian and those practices are barbaric.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: hatim
You people suit yourselves. Im here to discuss politics not religion. You keep yours and let me keep mine.

Sure as long as you're allowed to tax me abit more for mine, right? I thought this whole thread was a bout right and wrong, the morality of america's actions? How is religion not involved in morality? How can you discuss the middle east and not bring up Islam considering a major chunk or our main oppisition fource consists of islamic fundamentalist.

You want to drop the religion thing, because you like pointing out how horrible our actions have been you can't defend the horrible things Nuslims have done in the name of Islam. I'll be the first to admit chrsitianity has its share of things to atone for and that we should learn from them. Too bd you can't do the same for Islam.

Stuck on the tax issue?

And what oh so horrible things have Muslims done in the name of Islam? People make mistakes, not religions. I dont say all Christians are messed up coz of some priests screwing little boys.

What horrible things have Muslims done in the name of islam? Go visit a couple of tall trade towers in new york for your answer. Oh, that's right, they're not there!

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: hatim

Serices provided. Including security, and what not.

Why do they need security? What services? Why can't everyone just be treated the same?

so you don't pay state taxes?

Most people pay state taxes, not just non-Christians. What a sick mind you have...

 

[Baltazar325]

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: hatim

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Todd33

it's not 'coulter types" it's reasonable types, this guy is way off base.

I'd say a majority of the world thinks this way. If anything, we in America, insulated with crappy media like Fox news are the ones 'off base'. We get so wrapped in the flag screaming about 9/11 all the time that we forget or don't care how everyone else sees us. Like what's here name said "We are a good country when we do good things", which lately has not been much.

I love how everyone loves to use Fox News as the example of all news media... Fox News is ONE NEWS AGENCY. We live in this country called the USA, where we have incredible access to this thing called the "internet". We aren't insulated from the world... the world news is at our fingertips... we have more cable, and sattelite TV than anywhere else in the world. The whole FOX NEWS argument is plain old rubbish.

And Hatim, you terrorist sympathizing scumbucket.... I have a few questions for you so that we can garner a better picture of your ideology.

1. Should Spain be returned to muslim control?

2. Is it ok to kill Hindus?

3. Is the United States an extension of the crusades?

4. Would you classify Osama Bin Laden as a terrorist?

-Max

1. No, unless conquored
2. Depends. If they are living in their own coutry, or are traders or anything. NO. Unless you control thier resident land...and before that there are 100's of questions asked so its very unlikely.
3. I dont beleive in the crusades. They were fought by rougue Islamic regimes. Banul Ummayad and Banul Abbas (They killed the prophet's grandson)
4. Depends. Not without proof.

1. But muslims have the right to attempt to conquer spain?
2. What about a random Hindu wandering in Pakistan.
3. I'll rephrase... do you believe the United States are eviol infidels attempting to destroy Islam?
4. Do you believe Sept 11th was a terrorist attack? Who do you believe did it?

1. Why not?
2. Illegal
3. No.
4. Terrorist definate. Im running no CIA so I won't comment.

I would actually like to see a muslim nation try to conquer someone. That would be funny to watch. We all know what powerful military machines most muslim nations are.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Sultan
Freedom has its price. All Muslims under an Islamic government have a "religious" tax - 2.5% - the non-Muslims do not pay that. If Islam said pay that, then you'd raise hue and cry, why, oh why should I pay that if I am not a Muslim.

You just want to argue for the sake of arguing :roll:

Pathetic, absolutely pathetic. No wonder so many are so backwards.

You are not Muslim! We must discriminate against you now just because you are of a different religion!

I cannot believe that you are supportive of discriminatory beliefs.