Originally posted by: ivwshane
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Dell may be solving the hardware problem.
It still wont help linux into the desktop market, the average joe wont be buying those systems any time soon. In fact if joe smoe's company started using linux as a desktop replacement it could hurt linux, if it isn't properly implemented and the end user experience is a negative one (the opposite could be true as well though, a good user experience with linux at work would also help linux become an "option" for the average joe at home).
DRM'd HD content isn't touching anything I own, because nothing I own will be allowed. I just bought an HT ready tv (it was a great deal), but it doesn't have the right connectors to watch the upcoming stuff properly. And I'm not going out to spend another metric assload of cash for a new tv.
I'll be "missing out," but it won't matter to me for several years (long enough for the technology to get more ingrained and cheaper). I can diggit.
While I do have an hd tv with hdcp I'm still very leary of jumping into hd. If fair use turns out not to be "fair" I will be boycotting it as I have done other technologies before. Will me boycotting make a difference? No, but if everyone had my attitude it would. Would I switch to linux? Not for that reason. MS isn't the one calling for DRM, they are doing it because that's what the content providers want and people want content and if MS can't give them the means to get it they (the consumer) will go somewhere that can. Boycotting MS products won't do anything since they aren't the ones requiring it, boycotting the content providers is what needs to be done.
Let's see, just in my day to day operations, two websites that are critical to my business as well as others in my profession require internet explorer (yes I have tried other browsers and none are compatible with it).
Another program I use that is not available on linux is a zipform desktop varient (http://www.zipforms.com/) and no there isn't any alternatives out there.
Another program I use that is not available on linux is a zipform desktop varient (http://www.zipforms.com/) and no there isn't any alternatives out there.
So screw crappy propriatory software. Your the customer and if the supplier of the software can't give you what you want, they can go f-themselves. There is usualy somebody else.
If there is nobody else can provide this and it's violently windows-only propriatory-only software task... You have a few options:
Wine or Crossover office.
Windows terminal services. (linux has very good remote desktop support)
Vmware. (there is even the no-cost VMware player)
For me, I installed SUSE and it found every single piece of hardware and I didn't have to install any drivers or anything else other than update my security settings.
You can't do that most times with MS and those same people that don't know what hardware they have or the manufacturers of it will have one hell of a time going all over the net trying to find out which drivers to use with their Windows boxes.
True but we aren't asking windows users to do that but we are asking them to switch to linux and in order for them to do that it has to go smoothly. Again just because your experience was good doesn't guarantee everyone else experience will be good.
And believe me windows isn't perfect but it has a single goal, to provide an easy to use OS. It's getting there but it has a way to go when it comes to hardware support but at least they are moving in the right direction (I'm referring to the windows driver install feature that looks online for the best driver). Of course windows also has the advantage of being preinstalled and configured already for the end user. The dell deal might be a step in the right direction but linux still has a ways to go.
If Linux came preinstalled, then it would be easier but MS's monopoly and their OEM scare tactics won't allow that to happen.
Thank you for a polite debate. I appreciate you for that and I hope you know I am doing that also. You can't get this everywhere and it's appreciated.
Originally posted by: ivwshane
If Linux came preinstalled, then it would be easier but MS's monopoly and their OEM scare tactics won't allow that to happen.
Unfortunately this is a fact and it's one linux must overcome. Linux can't simply be as good as windows, it has to be better! From what I've been told though, I don't think that is a goal of linux.
Originally posted by: ivwshane
So screw crappy propriatory software. Your the customer and if the supplier of the software can't give you what you want, they can go f-themselves. There is usualy somebody else.
If there is nobody else can provide this and it's violently windows-only propriatory-only software task... You have a few options:
Wine or Crossover office.
Windows terminal services. (linux has very good remote desktop support)
Vmware. (there is even the no-cost VMware player)
That might be an option in the corporate world but try telling my coworkers to do that. They wont have a clue what you are talking about. And believe me I've already talked to those companies and have requested better written (more compatible) software and it just falls of deaf ears. And if I could stop using their software I would.
Unfortunately this is a fact and it's one linux must overcome. Linux can't simply be as good as windows, it has to be better! From what I've been told though, I don't think that is a goal of linux.
However some of the programs I use (like the one I mentioned) are so poorly written that they don't allow themselves to be ran with a limited user account. To get around that I use a runas program that runs the program at the admin level while limiting their overal access to the computer.
Linux is a generic term (or if you're talking about just the kernel, a very specific one) and grouping every distribution of Linux under the moniker of 'Linux' doesn't work any better than saying 'cars' when you're talking about the automobile corporations. RedHat doesn't care about the desktop too much, they have some desktop developers and they support Gnome, but the core of their business is server sales so desktop stuff takes a backseat. Novell on the other hand seems to be going very aggressively towards the desktop. But you're right that a lot of Linux developers aren't concerned with taking over the desktop, they're just concerned with making software that works well for them.
Depending on how much time you want to put into the project, you could break out filemon and regmon and figure out which specific files and registry keys the process needs to access and then adjust the ACLs accordingly. It's tedious, but it would allow you to get rid of the dependency on runas.
That corresponds to my previous comment, it's fine that linux means many different things and has many different goals depending on the distrobution but for it to be successfull on the desktop it has to have a single identity.
Whether that means linux as a whole shifting gears and focusing on the end user or, more likely, a particular distrobution stepping up and making the end user experience their goal, it needs to be done and until someone steps up it will be an almost impossible battle.
Why? Most software has multiple brands and implementations, just look at how many text or image editors there are out there.
Right now that distribution seems to be Novell, whether that says true or not I can't say. And you need to realize that for 99% of the Linux users and developers, there is no battle. The very vocal minority want you to think there is, but that doesn't make it true.
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Whether that means linux as a whole shifting gears and focusing on the end user or, more likely, a particular distrobution stepping up and making the end user experience their goal, it needs to be done and until someone steps up it will be an almost impossible battle.
Right now that distribution seems to be Novell, whether that says true or not I can't say. And you need to realize that for 99% of the Linux users and developers, there is no battle. The very vocal minority want you to think there is, but that doesn't make it true.
Why Linux?
To the vast majority of people Windows is free also. Also it comes pre-installed on their computer.
Here is another way of putting it; when the average joe hears about MS windows they correlate that with the software that makes their computer work. Linux needs to make a similar connection.
I used the word "battle" in reference to getting linux on the desktop with a decent market share not a battle between developers.
Originally posted by: Nothinman
IME users don't have a clue what they're running, do you know how many times I've heard someone say that they're running "Microsoft 2000"? I would bet good money that you could probably install Linux on random machines around the US and as long as you created icons for their web broswer, email, etc around 75% of the time the person wouldn't notice something was really different until they tried to do something like try to install a new screensaver.
I was using the word battle in the same context, as I said for most of the developers there is no battle. They work on the software because they use the software and they want to make it better for them and if other people like it too that's great, if not no big deal.
Originally posted by: earthman
After working with various small businesses for several years setting up systems, doing networking, and so forth, I can tell you that most people have never heard of Linux, don't know about any other office program other than Office itself, don't understand the basics of how computers work, don't understand how the internet works, can usually install software but not remove it properly, and don't see why they should have to pay for software at all, since it's not made of metal and plastic and they can't reach out and touch it. I'm not under any illusions that any of this is going to change. Computer afficianados seem to have a unique and peculiar disdain sometimes for people who don't appreciate the intricacies of the IT world. I mean really, how much is the average person supposed to know about the numerous devices and technologies they use every day. Do you know how the pumps work that supply water to your house, what voltage they use, or even where they are? Do you understand the chemical reactions in an oil refinery that turn crude oil into the gasoline you put into your car? How about the pill you took for the headache you got reading all these posts? Do you know how that works? It's easy to be dismissive of how "dumb" people are about the stuff we know (or think we know) about, but lets be realistic. In an increasingly complex world, the average person can't know all the details, all the quirks, all the trivia involved with every aspect of every thing they use. They will be influenced by advertising, marketing, and what they see others doing. Products with wide penetration have wide recognition, familiarity, and are perceived as successful. Products that are not familiar are seen as risky and subjectively "not as good". Realistically, I can't go into some place and tell them that Microsoft is bad, that they should throw out their Windows, their Office, get rid of Outlook, etc. when there is no recognizable alternative for them. The earlier poster is right, many businesses use propreitary software that they perceive as very necessary for which there is no "free" or open-source alternative. Many use programs like Quickbooks, AutoCAD, Quark, that have no really comparable Linux alternatives, certainly none that they've heard of. It would be a hard sell to convince them that they should entrust perhaps millions of dollars of data to software that is unfamiliar and may not have any track record. The fact that some have made the switch is great, but there is a big difference between a large enterprise that has the resources to write new software from the ground up, test it, re-engineer it, and do a staged deployment, and a struggling small business that just needs to print out their invoices reliably every week. Even a company with huge name recognition like Apple has struggled for tiny amounts of market share in this environment. "C" drives may be as dumb as flying toasters and dancing babies, and maybe as outdated, but they are still what's familiar to the most people, and that's the real issue.
However linux doesn't have the option of being randomly installed on joe smoes computer, joe smoe has to want it to be installed and if they have no idea what linux is then they will never have that want.
I think we are looking at it from two different perspectives here, I'm looking at it from the consumer and the home computer standpoint and I think you are looking at it from an IT and the business users stand point. Both perspectives are different and I believe they have to be handled differently.
Which is another reason why linux will never be a successful desktop OS. If developers wanted linux on every desktop they would have to design their software so that it's accessible to the end user and not just one particular type of end user either but linux developers don't want that, that's not their goal. Instead developers rely on third parties to create a good user experience and as I've already said, that is an issue in of it's self.
linux developers don't care about end users.
Originally posted by: Nothinman
linux developers don't care about end users.
Making blanket statements like that just makes you look uninformed. Do you have any idea how many people fit into the 'linux developers' category?
They work on the software because they use the software and they want to make it better for them and if other people like it too that's great, if not no big deal.
Originally posted by: earthman
I mean really, how much is the average person supposed to know about the numerous devices and technologies they use every day. Do you know how the pumps work that supply water to your house, what voltage they use, or even where they are? Do you understand the chemical reactions in an oil refinery that turn crude oil into the gasoline you put into your car? How about the pill you took for the headache you got reading all these posts? Do you know how that works?