Why Should God Bless America?

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Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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<< This thread brought me to a question I've thought in the last few days:

"In God We Trust" on our currency... Call me crazy, color me uninformed, but doesn't this present a problem when looking at the separation of church and state?
>>

Prior to the mid-1950's, the national motto was "E Pluribus Unum", and though the phrase "In God We Trust" had been printed (stampped in the case of coin money) on a few forms of money prior to this, its use was by no means universal. Then, in the mid-1950's a Catholic groups called "The Knights of Columbus" lobbied before Congress and got the national motto changed to "In God We Trust". It is worth noting that this was during the period of McCarthy-ism and persons who voted against the change risked the lable of "godless communist". The same goes for the Pledge of Allegiance, which originally ran "I pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the country for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." "My flag" was changed to "the flag of the United States of America" in the early part of the 20th century to more directly link the oath to the United States. The "under God" portion was not inserted until the mid-1950's, again at the urging of the Knights of Columbus, and it passed for much the same reason as the change in the national motto.

ZV
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,153
6,620
126
Hehe, I noticed between posts that you'd gotten in there, but I finished my last one before I read it. Glad you took it well. I was aware of the irony, but the difference is that half my posts deal only with fact and the other half have gone to straightening out AmusedOne.

There was a great program on my local PBS today, the meaning of life. Somebody said, if you don't like the news go out and make some.

The problem is I see is that a literal interpretation something like the Bible leads to a shades of gray blind approach to life. A thing is one thing or another. The abortion issue. The trouble with relativism is that even black and white are gray. I'll put my faith in the lover. From him every kiss is the will of God.
 

minus1972

Platinum Member
Oct 4, 2000
2,245
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<< I think he was just comparing our nation's standards to God's standards. We fall short, just like any other country. Even Canada, eh? >>



and who the hell says that we, as Americans, have to live up to God's standards?



<< "In God We Trust" on our currency... Call me crazy, color me uninformed, but doesn't this present a problem when looking at the separation of church and state? >>



no; you've been watching too much Miracle on 34th St.



<< Prior to the mid-1950's, the national motto was "E Pluribus Unum", and though the phrase "In God We Trust" had been printed (stampped in the case of coin money) on a few forms of money prior to this, its use was by no means universal. Then, in the mid-1950's a Catholic groups called "The Knights of Columbus" lobbied before Congress and got the national motto changed to "In God We Trust". It is worth noting that this was during the period of McCarthy-ism and persons who voted against the change risked the lable of "godless communist". The same goes for the Pledge of Allegiance, which originally ran "I pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the country for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." "My flag" was changed to "the flag of the United States of America" in the early part of the 20th century to more directly link the oath to the United States. The "under God" portion was not inserted until the mid-1950's, again at the urging of the Knights of Columbus, and it passed for much the same reason as the change in the national motto. >>

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,153
6,620
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Zenmervolt, we couldn't very well put 'in the lover we trust' without getting called a bunch of panzies.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
That is how we acquired this country, cleansing the godless savages who were the natives, and traveling around the world to enslave godless Africans. You liken this point in time to being one in which your god was blessing America. I especially like the part about the protestant southerners confessing their sins and humbling themselves before god, then going out the next day and beating their slaves. It's really quite telling.
 

Beau

Lifer
Jun 25, 2001
17,730
0
76
www.beauscott.com


<< Beau6183, I don't believe that there is any way for anyone to correct this lacking. Anything the government tried would infringe on personal liberty, which is in direct opposition to a Christian worldview. The concept of personal liberty is derived from Scripture. The only thing to do is for Christians to get more serious about their relationship with God and to pray for this country, its people and its leadership. The rest will take care of itself. Our trust needs to be in Him, not ourselves. >>



That's great and all, but like I said, this forum is composed primarily of athiests and agnostics. What good would your suggestion do. You cannot seriously expect to be take seriously without a clear and logical solution. All faiths teach that life is a trial. Why would God intervene in our lives so much as to save a country when life itself is a test to see if we can 1) make mistakes and b) correct them? I say the solution is in our hands, not God's.

And further, by saying "God bless America", you are indeed asking a small prayer to God to bless America.
 

dfi

Golden Member
Apr 20, 2001
1,213
0
0
No, no, that's just a typo.

See, what americans actually mean to say is "God, bless america." We're asking him to, not saying he does.

dfi
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
642
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0
I'll grant that Paine was technically a Deist, though had you done some background research you would know that a Deist god shares almost nothing with the traditional Christian God. A Deist god (often called a "watchmaker god") is believed to have created the universe, then to have taken no further role. Deists do not believe in any sort of heavenly intervention in matters of this world.

Samuel Clarke in his 'Demonstration of the Being and Attributes of God' (1704-6) distinguished four classes of Deists: a) those who believed that God was the creator but had no further relation to the world, b) those who believed God was the creator and the providential guide of the natural but not the moral or spiritual order, c) those who admitted God?s moral attributes but denied a future life, d) those who accepted all of natural religion - God as creator and providential guide in the natural, moral, and spiritual order together with belief in the immortality of the soul - but rejected revelation.

Which ever one of these Paine believed, he was a far cry from an atheist.


And I must be imagining the fact that several Philosophy texts (and my Professor) mention that Hume was never permitted a teaching position on account of his atheistic views. I should very much appreciate the citation for the quotation that you attribute to Hume, as I am quite firmly of the belief that it is taken rather severely out of context.

I wonder if you would mind giving me a source of a Philosophy text that mentions this about Hume. I know he had problems due to his beliefs, but these were not atheistic beliefs. As can be easily demonstrated, Hume was a deist. My source is 'Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion' by David Hume (1779); taken from the introduction. The full paragraph follows:

Happily, these circumstances are all to be found in the subject of NATURAL RELIGION. What truth so obvious, so certain, as the being of a God, which the most ignorant ages have acknowledged, for which the most refined geniuses have ambitiously striven to produce new proofs and arguments? What truth so important as this, which is the ground of all our hopes, the surest foundation of morality, the firmest support of society, and the only principle which ought never to be a moment absent from our thoughts and meditations? But, in treating of this obvious and important truth, what obscure questions occur concerning the nature of that Divine Being, his attributes, his decrees, his plan of providence? These have been always subjected to the disputations of men; concerning these human reason has not reached any certain determination. But these are topics so interesting, that we cannot restrain our restless inquiry with regard to them; though nothing but doubt, uncertainty, and contradiction, have as yet been the result of our most accurate researches.

Be that as it may, any Philosophy professor worth his salt can tell you that Paine was a Deist and that Hume was an atheist. If you dispute this, you are disputing established facts of history.

Then they would be right on Paine, and wrong on Hume. They were both Deist. Hume, by his own words, believed in NATURAL RELIGION. By definition he was not an Atheist.

You show great ability to misquote things

Such as....? I have misquoted nothing. I wonder again about your Philosophy Texts.

Also, your Robert E. Lee quote does nothing to help your credibility.

Just a bit of the un-Reconstructed Southerner in me making itself known. I'll be happy to let my credibility stand on confirmable source material rather than baseless declarations.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
Again, the problem with popular absolutist religions is that they do not even regard introspection, they are focused on superficialities. What good is confessing your sins of you can't understand why you commit them in the first place? PastorDon, I would say that you are too focused on the percieved shortcomings of everyone else. What purpose does this serve? Since when did any god promote destructive thinking?
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
642
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0
the problem with popular absolutist religions is that they do not even regard introspection, they are focused on superficialities.

The Christian Faith promotes introspection. Current resources to aid the Christian range from Henry Blackaby's 'Experiencing God' to Robert Wick's 'Self-Ministry Through Self-Understanding : A Guide to Christian Introspection'.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
We are still dealing with religions that do not promote thinking outside the box on a fundamental level. To engage in serious introspection is to try to see beyond the bible, beyond the labels, beyond the ways we've been conditioned to think. Thought you should know that those books are of the same newage influence that you tiptoed your way around condeming as being godless.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81
Damn...this is long



<< The phrase, "God Bless America," has become as common a public fixture in recent days as the ubiquitous US flag. We see it heralded on buttons, bumper stickers, pins, poster, banners and billboards. We hear it from political pundits, commentators, columnists, journalists, and the various aspirants to political offices that cover the landscape of America just now. In short, it appears America has called on God to bless her in a "jihad" (holy war) of her own, to rid the world of "terrorists" and "evil". It is worth noting that President Bush gathered in the National Cathedral in Washington DC, just days after the attack on September 11, political, social, and religious leaders of every conceivable stripe, praying for divine assistance for the course they would take in the days ahead. Many Presidents before him had called the nation to prayer during times of war or national mourning. This was to my knowledge, however, the first time in America's history that the triune God of the Bible, whose son Jesus Christ declared himself the one and only way to God the father, was clearly not the focus of this gathering's prayers. In his place, America's leaders have embraced a "universalistic" God that people of every religion are supposed to embrace in the name of diversity and multiculturalism. The savior of mankind, who died on a cross for our sins, was noticeably absent in the invocations uttered. Based on this gathering, I believe Christians can disabuse themselves of any notions that their faith, or America's traditional culture on which it is based, will hold any more importance in the future than Buddhism, Islam, or any other religious faith. America's Christian era is clearly past, so far as our elites are concerned. Serious Christians ought to ponder the language now being used in connection with those being described as "terrorists" today. I keep hearing that the only problem with Islam is its "fundamentalists", which are routinely described as "extremists". Have any of you ever heard the media, or some of our political leaders talk about Christian "fundamentalists" as problematic, or extreme? What does this portend in terms of how these Christians are treated in the future? Perhaps they will come under the scrutiny of the new Department of Homeland (fatherland) Security.

In the early days of our first War for Independence, George Washington issued the following declaration to the men under his command, "The Continental Congress having earnestly recommended that Thursday next be observed by the inhabitants of all the English Colonies upon this continent as a day of public humiliation, fasting and prayer, that they may with united hearts and voice unfeignedly (sincerely) confess their sins before God, and supplicate the all Wise and Merciful Disposer of Events, to avert the desolation and calamities of an unnatural war." George Bush, as well as the rest of America, seems to have forgotten the part about humbling ourselves and confessing our sins before asking God to bless us, and presumably the war we've decided to make on anyone in the world we say supports terrorism. My Bible tells me that only under God's conditions can we expect him to bless us.

Have we, as a nation, no sins in need of forgiveness? In some circles today, to suggest that we do is considered un-American. I think precisely the reverse is true. Any Christian worthy of the name should recoil in horror at the thought of the 4,000 abortions that take place in this country every day. Just this morning I heard a well- respected Christian minister say that over the course of the past 28 years, 43 million babies have been murdered with our government's sanction. Even if he were wrong by half, we are talking about a holocaust that makes every other pale in comparison. In a truly Christian society, much less a civilized one, it shouldn't matter what a majority of 9 justices of the Supreme Court says on such an issue, what should matter is the sanctity of human life and attempts to undermine it. Abortion is nothing more than the deliberate killing of an innocent human being and is condemned by the sixth commandment. For a Biblical justification of this position you can read Psalms 139: 13-16, Genesis 2:7, and Exodus 21:22-25 for starters.

I have heard it said that because there is no afterlife for nations, they must be judged in this life. Does anyone think this is cause for some concern? II Chronicles 7:14 says, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." History clearly teaches us that people from Christendom established the land we think of when we say "America," they confessed their submission to the God of the Bible, seeking his blessings upon them. There is no question that God did indeed bless his people here. It is just as clear that the political, social, and religious liberties we have long enjoyed grew out of Christianity and is part of an inheritance we are rapidly losing. Is there a connection between America's turn away from the God of the Bible and the gradual loss of those liberties? I certainly think so.

A question all of us should ponder today is whether or not an America that has clearly rejected God's commandments is deserving of his blessings. America cannot be neutral on this question. Our founders knew this and spoke of it. God himself proclaims that he is a jealous God. He blessed Israel only so far as they remained faithful to him, and when they sinned, by seeking after mammon, the flesh, or other God's, judgment always followed.

In Proverbs 8:36, God reminds us that "all they that hate me, love death." Abortion, AIDS, the high crime rate, our never-ending military adventures around the world, and lately, consideration of Euthanasia as "an idea whose time has come", leaves me to wonder if indeed we live in a culture of death. Many people today, even well meaning Christians, act as though we all still live under a government guided by Christianity. They deceive themselves. Jeremiah 17:5 says, "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm." Perhaps Americans are convinced that they no longer need God. After all, they might tell themselves, look at how rich and powerful we are. Is this the American pride we hear so much about? If so, remember Proverbs 16:18, "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." As Paul Proctor wrote in a recent editorial, "It is not pride in ourselves that will restore God's blessings to America. Pride in self is what destroys men and nations". No, if we are to be delivered from the enemies we have made as the result of our constant foreign meddling, we must humble ourselves and confess our sin before the one true, triune God, and seek to restore him to his place of sovereignty over our people. We delay at our own peril. I welcome comments at wcarlson@i-plus.net -- Wayne Carlson
>>

 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
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<<I wonder if you would mind giving me a source of a Philosophy text that mentions this about Hume.>>

Solomond, Robert C. and Greene, Jennifer K. Morality and the Good Life: An Introduction to Ethics through Classucal Sources. Third ed. McGraw-Hill. 1999.

"Because of his atheism, Hume was never able to secure a university position, and his published works earned him the title of 'the great infidel.'"

Page 199, paragraph one, lines six through seven.

Also:

Norman, Richard. The Moral Philosophers: An Introduction to Ethics. Second ed. Oxford University Press. 1998.

"David Hume, the eighteenth-century Scottish philosopher, can hardly be enlisted in the Christian tradition. He was the author of one of the great works of religious skepticism, his Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion."

Page 53, paragraph three, lines one through three.

I have a sense that you are taking things from Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion out of context, though unintentionally. When I have the time available outside of my studies I shall investigate further.

<<I wonder again about your Philosophy Texts.>>

Did you imagine that I would make the claim without support? That would have been beyond unwise. As it stands, I have 2 Ph.D. professors who are currently at UTA (one of which taught at Princeton), an Oxford University professor, and my own Ethics professor here at the University of Pittsburgh (Ph.D. Laura Richie) backing my position.

ZV
 

fow99

Senior member
Aug 16, 2000
510
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It is a shame that this thread is not the *hottest* one on this forum. To many people concerns about sex, money, power, gaming, movie, etc, which has only one functionality of making them drunk and unable to think.
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
642
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Did you imagine that I would make the claim without support? That would have been beyond unwise. As it stands, I have 2 Ph.D. professors who are currently at UTA (one of which taught at Princeton), an Oxford University professor, and my own Ethics professor here at the University of Pittsburgh (Ph.D. Laura Richie) backing my position.

I didn't really think that you had no support, I just doubt its validity. Since our discussion began I have looked at a number of sources and have found many references to Hume being a deist. I'm sure you realize the fundamental difference. I will try so secure copies of the text you give thru interlibrary loan.

Richard Norman (from your source) refers to Dialogs Concerning Natural Religion. Having problems with revelation and being an atheist are far seperated. I have read about half, and am confident as to Hume's Deism. Hume's words speak much louder than the opinions of others.

I do wonder why atheist want to claim deist as their own.

I am about a year away from serious consideration as to where to persue my Ph.d and under what discipline. I have a genuine desire to persue Classic Mathematical Logic, especially as applied to philosophy.

Thanks.


Edit:

Thoemmes Press Encyclopedia includes the following on Hume:

Although the Dialogues was widely regarded as an attack on Christianity, Hume?s subject is far more comprehensive. Christians or Christianity are mentioned on three occasions only (in sections 1, 2, 4, 12), and Cleanthes is the first to comment on the ?Union of Philosophy with the popular Religion, upon the first Establishment of Christianity?. (It is not difficult to infer from this observation that Hume thought it his duty to dis-establish the union.) Demea is the next to mention ?all the Divines ? from the Foundation of Christianity? who would support his view of the ?nature of God,? making it clear that, unlike Philo and Cleanthes (to a lesser extent), he cannot imagine a non-Christian conception of a deity. Cleanthes later accuses Demea of so mystical a description of God as to be an atheist, to which Philo rejoins that ?Christian theologians? would also be atheists in such an analysis. These brief allusions to Christianity hardly prepare the reader for Philo?s startling conclusion: ?To be a philosophical Sceptic is, in a man of Letters, the first and most essential Step towards being a sound, believing Christian.? It is part of the drama of the Dialogues that it concludes with a philosophical riddle. Why should men of letters be singled out as needing the requirement of philosophical scepticism in order to become Christians? Moreover, in Part 1, Cleanthes has described Locke as the ?first Christian ? to assert, that Faith was nothing but a Species of Reason, that Religion was only a Branch of Philosophy ??. Locke was clearly not a philosophical sceptic, but he was indubitably a man of letters. He may satisfy Cleanthes? definition of a Christian, but does he satisfy Philo?s?
 

Mephistopheles

Senior member
May 16, 2001
410
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<< Lol... what's the difference betwee "sin" and "doing bad things"? >>



Sin is religious law. At certain times, sex is a sin. Sex is not a bad thing.

doing bad things v. any act which reduces the potential for Man's goal of survival.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
<<I do wonder why atheist want to claim deist as their own.>>

To be absolutely accurate, I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic who is gradually leaning towards a form of diesm though I currently have more atheistic tendencys than diestic ones.

Regardless, it's not so much that an atheist wants to claim diests as their own as it is a desire to point out the flaws in the common, though incorrect, fallacy that America was founded as a Christian nation. The only person who could absolutely answer for Hume would be Hume himself, and that's not going to happen. I was merely pointing out that there is common belief that Hume was an atheist in order to back up my statements so that it didn't look quite so much like I was talking out of my arse. However, whether atheist or diest, Hume was still not a Christian, and the basis of the American government on the ideas of Paine and Hume should be enough to show that America was never intended to be a "Christian nation".

Still, this has been an interesting thread when it could easily have been merely a flame war. Some heated debate to be sure, but I have seen these things become much worse and generally as a result of people who claim to be on the same side as I.

ZV

PS. The Civil War has been over for more than 130 years, let it go man. But at least you haven't called it "the war of northern agression" yet.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< Based on this gathering, I believe Christians can disabuse themselves of any notions that their faith, or America's traditional culture on which it is based, will hold any more importance in the future than Buddhism, Islam, or any other religious faith. >>

Buddhism isn't a religious faith.
 

Mephistopheles

Senior member
May 16, 2001
410
0
0


<< Buddhism isn't a religious faith. >>



Well, it is about spiritual betterment. Just because it's atheistic doesn't mean it's not religious (i.e. set of beliefs). Or did you mean something else?
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
I guess God forgot to bless America on September 11th. There's the lesson then - don't practice prevention, because God sure doesn't do it.:frown:
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<<

<< Buddhism isn't a religious faith. >>



Well, it is about spiritual betterment. Just because it's atheistic doesn't mean it's not religious (i.e. set of beliefs). Or did you mean something else?
>>

Buddhism is more like an objective, scientific approach to 'spiritualism'. It's all about insight.

The ultimate insight (Enlightenment) is the goal of Buddhism.

For this reason Buddhism doesn't have a rigid set of beliefs, like ideologies. It's changing constantly.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91


<< EngineNr9,
When was it, exactly, that the US went about converting or killing off the unbelievers? Or, for that matter, when has any group of Protestants gone about converting or killing off unbelievers?
>>



Salem sound familiar to you? Or slightly more recent, Northern-Ireland? Converting... well... those evangelisation ships and TV evangelists aren't making snuff movies (I hope), so I presume they are trying to convert people.

When you say it used to be better in the US, do you mean before European settlers came? Before we brought racism, polution, wars, porn, Christianity and crap like that into the place? Or do you mean only a little while ago, when racism was still firmly in place and women had no rights? When people couldn't care less about the environment?
 

BigJohnKC

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2001
2,448
1
0
PastorDon, my eyes hurt from trying to read all that post at my high resolution :Q Interesting post, no doubt. Why should God bless America...well, I don't know, I'm not really sure what America has done laely that deserves blessing.
 
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