Why Vista?

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CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
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Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
It has been proven that there are more changes to the OS Shell and subsystem in Vista than to the Interface. Therefore it proves that the "*real substance*" (ie: ANYTHING BUT FLUFF) has had more changes than the "fluff".

change simply for the sake of change could be *FLUFF*, couldn't it?

show us what benefits we receive from these changes, and that will add substance. simply proving there are changes means, well.. nothing.

working with files, finding pictures, etc. has been made easier. if you get the 'ultimate' there are certainly some media center benefits, but at this point VISTA doesn't offer us much more than what most of us have with XP and third party enhancements (security and UI for example). seems to me driver's need to improve and dx10 need to become useful before there is any substantial benefit over XP..
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: apoppin

*agreed* Wreckage ... much bigger!

That's almost sig worthy


but NOT as big an advance as 2K was over ME.

M.E. was the biggest pile of ****** every placed upon this planet.
almost

and *i* was the one that started the rumor that MS created WinME for the *sole purpose* of selling WinXP :Q

.... you HAD to upgrade from that buggy blue-screen-of-death OS or face possible death by certain insanity.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
No windows 3.1x was the biggest pile of crap I was a Mac user back then and couldn't beleive how archaic it was relative to MacOS. Win98 made me switch which I found to be fine as well but some games will not work under it and dx support stopped so I upgraded to 2000. Similarly I will be forced to upgrade to Vista and I don't have a problem with that so long as it can be made "clean" and "sleek" with low overhead.. I don't need or want any of the "features" pimped by microsoft or thier fanboys. I can find all my files in a second now. I have never had a virus. I've never noticed a memory problem once I made Dual core move as everything is instant. etc
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
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Originally posted by: CaiNaM
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Originally posted by: CaiNaM
i've been around computers since the ti99, and used windows since the first release. this is the very FIRST time I haven't been running the latest version of windows by release... not sure if/when i'll take the plunge. not likely until dx10 games make it mandatory.

another first for me today - i tend to agree with Gstanfor that vista may actually hurt microsoft's OS monopoly (at least current version). it will likely be the slowest widespread adoption for an MS operating system in history - there will be many still running w2k/xp for some time.

the only reprieve for MS is that linux isn't viable as an entertainment platform (this from me who has over a dozen servers running some flavor of 'nix), and outside the coporate world there aren't many pc's which aren't used for gaming.

well, it's nice to see that, for the most part, i still don't agree with you

The way I see it, you can always dual boot into you existing copy of XP when you want to game (and we gaming enthusuiasts need to make it abundantly clear to the industry that we don't think abandoning Xp "just because" is an acceptable move, just as we need to impress upon Micro$oft that no DX10 for XP is unacceptable).

"rebooting" simply to game is not what i would consider "user friendly". not only is that cumbersome, but i actually do many tasks in the background while i'm gaming.

Having said that, there is a very significant proportion of home-pc's that do not get used for gaming (the owners tend to be older or have young families with consoles) and mainly use their computer for internet/photography/music/video.

based on what? your wish? from "hello kitty" to "world of warcraft", you'll find some type of game on the majority of pc's.

the latest data i know of from 2001 showed almost 70% of ppl used the pc's to play games. some more recent facts:

1. US computer and video game software sales grew six percent in 2006 to $7.4 billion ? almost tripling industry software sales since 1996.

2. Sixty-nine percent of American heads of households play computer and video games.

3. The average game player is 33 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.

4. The average age of the most frequent game buyer is 40 years old. In 2006, 93 percent of computer game buyers and 83 percent of console game buyers were over the age of 18.


5. Eighty-five percent of all games sold in 2005 were rated "E" for Everyone, "T" for Teen, or "E10+" for Everyone 10+. For more information on ratings, please see www.esrb.org.


6. Eighty-seven percent of game players under the age of 18 report that they get their parents? permission when renting or buying games, and 89 percent say their parents are present when they buy games.

7. Thirty-five percent of American parents say they play computer and video games. Further, 80 percent of gamer parents say they play video games with their kids. Sixty-six percent feel that playing games has brought their families closer together.


8. Thirty-eight percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (23%).


9. In 2005, 25 percent of Americans over the age of 50 played video games, an increase from nine percent in 1999.

10. Forty-four percent of game players say they play games online one or more hours per week. In addition, 32 percent of heads of households play games on a wireless device, such as a cell phone or PDA, up from 20 percent in 2002.

Linux, especially flavours such as PCLinuxOS will do everything they require and more, all without costing a cent or ripping up your rights.

i love linux, and am a big advocate of it. it helps support my family. it's more efficient, uses less overhead, and is, in general more secure (especially if you know what you're doing; most however do not).

the truth, however is that (while installation has become much better), most people are curious, but intimidated by it. when they buy their computer at bestbuy, it has windows installed, not linux. linux is a niche, and is nowhere near mainstream. that's why 90% of the world runs windows.

I've been building PC's for average families since 1996, been involved in introducing people to PC's since 1999 in an Online Access Centre (Internet Cafe with training & education focus), and been mucking with computers in general since the original calculator style keyboard Commodore PET, and I can tell you categorically most consumers (here in Tasmania, Australia at least) do not buy PC's with gaming as their primary purpose, and most of those who do experiment with gaming and far more likely to try the likes of Links LS, Kyodai and Hoyle Casino/Card games than they are Quake, Half-Life II or Oblivion.

Most people are quite willing to learn Linux if they are shown and helped how to go about it, and most coming to Linux from Windows are delighted at not having to spend a fortune on plugging micro$ofts never ending security holes.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
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Most people are quite willing to learn Linux if they are shown and helped how to go about it, and most coming to Linux from Windows are delighted at not having to spend a fortune on plugging micro$ofts never ending security holes.

It's not unique to MS. MS is the primary OS in the world. Virtually everyone uses it, therefore virtually all of the hackers are going to try to exploit it in any way shape or form. Not to discredit Linux, because personally I love it, I love how secure and streamlined everything is, but Linux isn't in near the limelight that Windows is in.

-Kevin
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
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Really guys, enough about Linux. Windows 3.1 was easier then, than Linux is today.
Stick to XP vs. Vista please.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Really guys, enough about Linux. Windows 3.1 was easier then, than Linux is today.
Stick to XP vs. Vista please.



Hehe .......Vista IMHO is a upgrade to XP,how much well that is like saying "how long is a piece of string" and depends on the person you ask.

What I like about Vista is fast on install,nice layout,stable,great at memory management, very good security,long life and DX10 support for the future games,cheap to buy,most of the unneeded drivers have been take out of the kernel to improve stability and debugging,no legacy 16 bit crap on the x64 version.



 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
31,442
30,760
146
I have systems with XP pro, XP home, and 2kpro, I'll stick with them, at least till MS stops supporting them completely. My 360 is my primary gaming platform now, so DX10 gaming isn't a big push for me yet. GoW, CrackDown, Halo3, Bioshock, ect. will eat up all the hours I can allocate to gaming, for the foreseeable future.

Hell, the X2 system I built in the summer of '05 is by far the longest I've gone on a CPU&board combo since the turn of the century, and I have zero plans to upgrade this year. Perhaps in 18-24 months when I do upgrade my primary PC I 'll put a copy of Vista on it, but MS will get my $ from their 360 stuff until then.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
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Originally posted by: apoppin
they could have done the *exact same thing* with XP's search

There was no reason for them to replace the Windows XP search.

Originally posted by: apoppin
... and *security* is no advantage with Vista [yet].

Says who? You obviously have no experience with the operating system other than the FUD you've read on the Intarwebz from reputable sites like The Inquirer. Features such as UAC keep the PC from running programs without the user's consent and can keep programs from running with high amounts of permissions. Not to mention even the Event Viewer has been drastically changed from merely including 3 items to including about 100 separated by type such as boot time. Have you ever tried scrolling through an event viewer full of stuff? It's not a good time trying to find something useful.

Originally posted by: apoppin
FUTURE dx10 gaming . . . is not a +plus+ ... yet

It's already an advantage whether or not it's being used.

Originally posted by: apoppin
it's a pretty interface loaded with DRM infection

More FUD. There is absolutely no issue with playing media that I have ever had while running Vista and I've played everything from a Windows Media file to a Matroska file.

Originally posted by: apoppin
i'm giving it some time before i pay to be a beta tester for MS and when the *real forum people* that i *trust* - not MS viral *seeds* giving a knee-jerk thumbsup - on these forum report it is *mature* and relativly *fixed*, i will buy it ...

Now this section here pissed me off to no end. Not only do you spout a bunch of crap, you just called every one who actually TRIED THE OS IN QUESTION a viral advertiser for Microsoft and completely discredited our opinion on the solidity and cohesiveness of the OS... simply because you think it's bad because of some doomsday prophets on the net.

Originally posted by: apoppin
until then there is NO advantage whatsoever for me to migrate to Vista ... now ...
nada ... zero ... zip

Good, hopefully once games start using DirectX 10, you'll leave and we won't have to have posts filled with more smilies than text.

Originally posted by: apoppin
i don't need to post *proof* ... you don't post any when you give *your opinion*

You fail to realize that some of us have actually used the OS unlike yourself. You're the only one who's going off without proof where quite a few of us actually have proof in our own use.

Originally posted by: Acanthus
WinFS, the revolutionary new file system that was supposed to power Windows to a new level of file and OS level managment, was abandoned a year ago.

It is still an NTFS kernel.

WinFS was merely an SQL implementation built off of NTFS... wanna try again?

Originally posted by: apoppin
you ARE giving your *opinion* ... it is only "fact" in your own mind

and i gave my *opinion* about Vista and stand by it

Wrong, we're giving our user experiences, you're giving an opinion that's heavily tainted with Internet FUD about things that you have no idea whether or not they're even right! You're making yourself look like a fool.

Originally posted by: apoppin
look ... hypocrite ... you START by calling me a *Smart Ass* and then say *i* am pushing you

You started everything by telling every Vista user that our testaments in here are nothing but Microsoft viral advertisements. When it comes to my own uses, I consider myself fairly credible in providing both positive aspects and negative aspects (which it is quite obvious to see that I have provided both). To just come off and say that... I was and still am quite livid!

Originally posted by: Zebo
...i see no reason to upgrade until Mr. Gates forces the issue by making DX10 a Vista only option

But it is Vista-only. Unless you mean games start coming out for DirectX 10.

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
change simply for the sake of change could be *FLUFF*, couldn't it?

Not necessarily. Fluff is hard to simply define... do you consider Aero fluff? I'd say if Microsoft removed Aero and left the standard interface or left in a Luna clone, people would cry foul over the removal of a feature that some users do in fact use. One of the few aspects of Windows that I could see being considered fluff are the newer games that are included with Windows (and have been since XP). Although Vista does add a couple new games and the MahJongg is pretty nifty!

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
show us what benefits we receive from these changes, and that will add substance. simply proving there are changes means, well.. nothing.

Increased security through new features such as UAC. Increased usability through a refined Windows Explorer (it's much better than the prior versions).

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
if you get the 'ultimate' there are certainly some media center benefits, but at this point VISTA doesn't offer us much more than what most of us have with XP and third party enhancements (security and UI for example). seems to me driver's need to improve and dx10 need to become useful before there is any substantial benefit over XP..

Vista Home Premium and Vista Ultimate both include Media Center.

Also, based on the logic you've shown here, XP was a worthless upgrade to 2000. XP provided very little to 2000 other than adding in Luna and adding in some of the user-friendly features from the 9x series. At least in the case of Vista, you actually have changes to the graphic, sound and network substructure.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: apoppin
thanks for *your opinion* Aikouka

it is clearly different than mine as you DO swallow the MS hype

still *livid*?

too bad

Sorry, but there's a difference between "DA INKWIERER SAID VISTUH HAS DMCA!!!! AND I NEVUR LICKED THAT BAND RUN DMCA!!!!" and actually presenting the facts about the operating system. It seems that you have swallowed the anti-Microsoft hype if anything.

EDIT: Best part is your only defense to the points I made translates into "nuh uh! m$ sux and I'm cool because I call it m$!"
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Aikouka
Originally posted by: apoppin
thanks for *your opinion* Aikouka

it is clearly different than mine as you DO swallow the MS hype

still *livid*?

too bad

Sorry, but there's a difference between "DA INKWIERER SAID VISTUH HAS DMCA!!!! AND I NEVUR LICKED THAT BAND RUN DMCA!!!!" and actually presenting the facts about the operating system. It seems that you have swallowed the anti-Microsoft hype if anything.

EDIT: Best part is your only defense to the points I made translates into "nuh uh! m$ sux and I'm cool because I call it m$!"
you're just late to the party here

i just *don't care* to *retread* the *same old arguments* ...

especially with you ...

who can't see the *difference* between *his opinion* and *facts*

and who won't really read my replies [as usual] but is determined to shout his PoV because *in your own mind* you are *right*

just go for it ... i am *tired* and won't *repeat*

i'll let someone else debate you [if they feel it is worth it]

all i will say is *time will tell* about Vista .... i played with the RC2 ... no interest whatsoever in buying it now and i wouldn't install it if i got it for free now

i just don't want *buggy fluff* in my life ... at least right now ... perhaps later, when i hear from forum members i respect that Vista is really *ready* i will consider it then ... or perhaps if i am *forced* to go to Vista for gaming

carry on

final Edit

Did you say the *same thing* about Vista now that you said about WinME? --7 years ago?

were you even *around* for the ME launch?
:Q

MS hyped the hell outta that OS and we know how it turned out

i have been thru MANY MS launches ... many of them ARE *fluff*

and yet you defend them to the death

good for you!
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: apoppin
you're just late to the party here

I believe I posted in this thread before you did.. too lazy to go and check.

Originally posted by: apoppin
i just *don't care* to *retread* the *same old arguments* ...

Good, because they're complete garbage that I actually sat down (okay, I was already sitting) and read.

Originally posted by: apoppin
especially with you ...

Well, that's not nice.

Originally posted by: apoppin
who can't see the *difference* between *his opinion* and *facts*

Stating a truth about an operating system sounds like a fact to me :roll:. Saying an OS is "DRM infected" when all it does is protect HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs.

Originally posted by: apoppin
and who won't really read my replies [as usual] but is determined to shout his PoV because *in your own mind* you are *right*

Oh, I actually painstakingly read every single one of them. Hence why I'm so annoyed.

Originally posted by: apoppin
i'll let someone else debate you [if they feel it is worth it]

Sorry, there doesn't exist anyone else with your amazing credentials and incredible prowess to argue against me.

Originally posted by: apoppin
all i will say is *time will tell* about Vista .... i played with the RC2 ... no interest whatsoever in buying it now and i wouldn't install it if i got it for free now

Congratulations, you formed an opinion. The next step is realizing that no one gives a damn. This thread is for facts about the OS to put forth reasoning of why or why not to upgrade, not for saying "well, I'm just not interested because... well... I'm not" Such a compelling argument... must've been the captain of your peewee league debate team with that.

Originally posted by: apoppin
i just don't want *buggy fluff* in my life ... at least right now ... perhaps later, when i hear from forum members i respect that Vista is really *ready* i will consider it then ... or perhaps if i am *forced* to go to Vista for gaming

Yes, because people are crying horrid tales of bad bugs in Windows software. The only issues I've ever had are with non-MS drivers.

Originally posted by: apoppin
Did you say the *same thing* about Vista now that you said about WinME? --7 years ago?

No, I never bought and refused to buy Windows ME. When ME was out, I was running Windows 2000. So nice try.

Originally posted by: apoppin
were you even *around* for the ME launch?
:Q

Yes, I remember running OS/2 Warp and Windows 3.11 way back in the day... how about you?

Originally posted by: apoppin
MS hyped the hell outta that OS and we know how it turned out

There's two scenarios:

1) Something is hyped and it doesn't live up.
2) Something is hyped and it does live up.

I'd say Vista is somewhere in the middle. It most certainly isn't as bad as you're trying to make it out to be. Also, I really don't see much hype about Vista. Comparatively, it is the first major OS from Microsoft in 5 years and it receives ad campaigns because of that. Intel puts out ads for new processors every 1-2 years in a similar fashion.

Originally posted by: apoppin
and yet you defend them to the death

Wrong, I defend the fact that you're telling the lot of us that we're "wrong" simply because you don't agree. Yet, we're presenting the facts about our experiences running the operating system in an unadulterated manner. You are simply on a fast train to FUDtown like you typically are.

Apoppin, your posts are either Anti-Microsoft or Anti-nVidia. It's so blatantly obvious that you're just as bad of a troll as you try to accuse others of being. Not to mention the coherency of your posts are atrocious... and with that I pose a serious and non-defamatory question... did you even get an education that was satisfactory enough to form a well-written post?

EDIT: To better describe how your posts are annoying just based on how they're written... see, your posts remind me of some people in a chat room that I run. Now, I'm nice when it comes to administration and I don't remove people for inefficient ability to chat. But I do find it quite annoying when people take a thought such as "Hey you, I went out today and purchased the tickets for the show! It should be awesome!" and turn that into about 6-10 lines of text.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
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Dude (Aikouka) chill out, you are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is saying, although they made a number of changes under the hood, he believes the Aesthetics were the main thing.

You are really blowing it way out of proportion. He just doesn't feel like it is a worth while upgrade yet.

-Kevin
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
well i started with assembly language with ASCII graphics on the Atari 800

let me shoot your quote right back at you Aikouka ... it applies perfectly to you
Congratulations, you formed an opinion. The next step is realizing that no one gives a damn.

EDIT: thanks, Kevin

that IS what i am saying ...

the *changes* are not as deep or innovative as the Hype [that some here buy into] leads us to believe ... and i cannot make a final judgement

WinME was hyped just as much as Vista is now ... and the *lessons of the Past* do not escape me.

for me -- NOW ... there is no *why Vista?* ... there is no need whatsoever
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Dude (Aikouka) chill out, you are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is saying, although they made a number of changes under the hood, he believes the Aesthetics were the main thing.

You are really blowing it way out of proportion. He just doesn't feel like it is a worth while upgrade yet.

-Kevin

Dude (Kevin) learn to read, I'm annoyed by the fact that the retard known as apoppin dared to call me (Aikouka) a viral marketer for Microsoft. Does such a simple thing bother me? Sure does, because it's attempting to discredit my statements with false accusations because he cannot do anything other than that. Petty? Maybe, but I won't sit by idly and let myself be called a viral marketer because Apoppin needs to spew off more crap from that thing he calls a mouth (or technically fingers in this case).

Also, the fact that aesthetics were NOT the main thing upgraded is a point I've been trying to make. The idea of skins were added as a main feature in Windows XP and Windows Vista merely changed the skin from Luna to Aero. Haven't you seen the Aero skins for Windows XP that do a decent job in emulating Aero? So in other words, skins certainly aren't new to Vista, yet the Aero skin and the system that runs it have been renovated/changed/added. There's a lot more than Apoppin ignores for the pure sake of his crusade against Microsoft (although at least I haven't seen him call it "M$" like others... god, that's one of the most childish things you can do).

To say nothing has changed "under the hood" is complete and utter garbage. Such a statement deserves immediate an discredit of said post, because they obvious don't know what they're talking about. Which is a bit surprising, as I remember Apoppin going on and on about ATi and Microsoft with the new graphics subsystem. Maybe he just forgot this fact because this thread isn't about his other love (ATi).

Originally posted by: apoppin
let me shoot your quote right back at you Aikouka ... it applies perfectly to you
Congratulations, you formed an opinion. The next step is realizing that no one gives a damn.

You seem to (still) fail to realize that there is a pretty fine line between presenting a fact and giving an opinion. Let me explain it even more. A statement like, "Windows has ___ feature" is not the same as, "I don't like Window's ____ feature." There's a difference, learn it.

Originally posted by: apoppin
the *changes* are not as deep or innovative as the Hype [that some here buy into] leads us to believe ... and i cannot make a final judgement

What's the hype saying... that you will have an improved user experience? Well, all that's relative. For me, (now, this is an opinion) the user experience has improved. Although there are some quirks with current software not playing well with UAC (you can simply turn it off), I haven't had a single glaring problem (unless you include my 90s boot times ). I was happy with Windows XP, but I'm enjoying Windows Vista a lot more. I see absolutely no reasons why I should throw my other HDD back in my PC and switch back (especially since I paid $200 for Vista! :Q)
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
I can read, now you are going to attack me??

I still fail to see where Apoppin says "You are a Viral Marketer".

Additionally I don't believe anyone said, including him, that Vista has ONLY aesthetic improvements. I believe, if I am reading it correctly, he said that he felt that despite the numerous changes under the hood, he still feels that Aesthetics were the main thing that changed.

-Kevin
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I can read, now you are going to attack me??

If you dance with the devil, prepare to get burnt.

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I still fail to see where Apoppin says "You are a Viral Marketer".

Read this quote I pasted below. In fact, he refers to everyone who posted positive remarks as "MS viral *seeds*". I don't take kindly to my reporting of facts as being attempts to virally push Vista. This thread was created to put forth the Good, the Bad and the Ugly and damnit, I've done all three (except maybe the ugly... since I haven't really found anything I'd consider ugly).

Originally posted by: apoppin
i'm giving it some time before i pay to be a beta tester for MS and when the *real forum people* that i *trust* - not MS viral *seeds* giving a knee-jerk thumbsup - on these forum report it is *mature* and relativly *fixed*, i will buy it ...

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Additionally I don't believe anyone said, including him, that Vista has ONLY aesthetic improvements. I believe, if I am reading it correctly, he said that he felt that despite the numerous changes under the hood, he still feels that Aesthetics were the main thing that changed.

I am trying to put forth that Vista isn't just XP + Aero. The "fluff" that he tries to put forth is Aero and supposedly that they could've done the same thing to XP. He even goes as far as to say, "and *security* is no advantage with Vista [yet]." Do I even need to explain how this is a load of horse hockey? I could see if you were using that Vista meant for 3rd World countries .

My question is this... for those bickering, whining and moaning over Vista having DRM embedded.. have you ran into anything that you've done with Vista (if you've even used it) where DRM hampered your experience? If not, do you ever expect it to? If not, why are you complaining then?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
i just don't want *buggy fluff* in my life ... at least right now ... perhaps later,

Must be single ..anyway that's all it is! Fluff. I read the supposed 100 advantages over at Microsoft's Vista web site and as far as I can tell all 100 advantages fall into one of three categories I have no need for "improvement" upon in the first place.

a) Security (never had virus or malware and I don't even use XP security features but third party stuff on w2k)

b) Automation features - like backups, favorite programs mem, etc (hate automation with a passion always doing exactly what and when I don't want it to do)

c) Prettier Looks (subjective and resource hogging)



 

jjzelinski

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2004
3,750
0
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Does anyone know if Universities in general will be selling Vista to students and faculty for a discount price? The University of Texas is distributing an "Enterprise" edition, which I'm not sure I'm interested in...
 
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