Will Anand sell out?

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Adul

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
32,999
44
91
danny.tangtam.com
also

For this particular review we?re going to be looking at SPEC CFP2000 performance since it seems to stress memory performance much more than the Integer benchmarks. In order to be fair to both AMD and Intel, we used the same config files that they used to submit their benchmarks to SPEC
 

jhalada

Member
Dec 6, 1999
84
0
0
NOX,

So you call Anand a sell out because Intel makes a crappy processor, and MAYBE, because the review which isn?t even ready yet (who knows when it will be ready), will show some of the P4?s strong capabilities, because Anand decided to use SPEC?

I just find the timing of 2 events curious:

1. Intel hypes Piv's SPEC scores
2. Anand (for the first time) devotes 4 pages of SPEC scores on the eve of Piv review

Do you think it is a coincidence?
 

NOX

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
4,077
0
0


<< In order to be fair to both AMD and Intel, we used the same config files that they used to submit their benchmarks to SPEC? >>

Do you find it a coincidence that both AMD and Intel use SPEC to benchmark their CPU?s, and submitted the config files to Anand?

<< Troll >>

Shame...
 

PCAddict

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 1999
3,804
0
0
Anand isn't a sellout, that is why his site has always been as successful as it is. It's also the reason all of us come here.

 

jhalada

Member
Dec 6, 1999
84
0
0
CRV,

You ask a question..Will Anand sell out? What pile of steaming slanderous B.S. are you trying to spread around here, for something that hasn't even happened yet?

I guess you missed the Rambus review and the backtracking called &quot;Part 2&quot;. So as far as using the term sell-out, you can't say there isn't a precedent.

Overall, I like Anand's site and his reviews and visit it regularly. I would like Anand to maintain independence. I am hoping that the number of ads that I have seen and clicked through (as did many others) are enough to keep his site impartial and I hope that he will resist Intel's carrots and sticks.
 

Remedy

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 1999
3,981
0
0
Trolls shouldn't be seen or even heard here in the forums of anandtech. Know your position, Because the mods know thiers...
 

JohnP

Junior Member
Oct 26, 1999
16
0
0
I am sure Anand has no chance but to do the benchmarks that Intel has selected, but his own selected benchmarks should comprise an at-least-equal amount of space and time. Here's some suggestions:

1. Compare all benchmarks to the best AMD and the best P3 system you can buy, such as Micron 1200 Athlon DDR2100 (or faster).

2. Sysmark - don't just report the total, tell us each application so that we can see which apps the P4 is strong/weak in.

3. Games -
a)include some OPENGL and Direct3D games that have no specific optimizations except what comes with Windows. The vast majority of games sold at retail are NOT optimized except for what comes free through the OS!.
b)run the games at realistic resolutions of 1024x768
c)3DMark is a useless benchmark, use REAL GAMES

4. Internet - include the Ziff-Davis internet suite.

5. SPEC - you've already said that you will break it down, but don't go overboard. Most people don't run SPEC or LINPACK! If you use a special Intel-supplied compiler don't allow the switches for the SPEC benchmark to be different from the LINPACK benchmark.

6. SPECVIEWPERF, thats a good one, why not add an AUTOCAD benchmark

7. There's a chess benchmark out there someplace!

THIS ONE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT:
Decide ahead of time which non-Intel-required benchmarks you will run, and run them all. Better yet, publish the list ahead of time.
 

adams

Golden Member
Sep 12, 2000
1,412
0
0
Its interesting that so many people reply with so much hostility. Is this how you interact with people face to face in your daily lives?

Somebody has raised a question which is of interest to them? I see nothing wrong with that. If you disagree, then say so, but I see no reason to be insulting.
 

medic

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,160
0
0
I guess you missed the Rambus review and the backtracking called &quot;Part 2&quot;. So as far as using the term sell-out, you can't say there isn't a precedent.

I absolutely DIDN'T miss the Rambus review and NOTHING about it gives you the right to slander him and call him a possible sellout. The first part described the technology:
Quote:
A sort of rule of thumb we've always kept around AnandTech is that real world performance should always be the final judge when it comes to recommending or denouncing a particular product. For those of you that took Part 1 of our Rambus DRAM investigation to be a recommendation for RDRAM or denunciation for DDR SDRAM, that was not the intent of the article. Rather, it was intended to establish the basis for the argument that there is a need for a higher bandwidth memory solution and that RDRAM is capable of filling that role in the future.
But now comes the time to evaluate whether or not there is a tangible use for RDRAM in the future and to reiterate the fact that RDRAM is currently not a viable option for consumers as it is easily outweighed by technology that has been around in systems for a much longer time.

If you had even read Part2 and understood it....you would NOT spread this B.S.
 

jhalada

Member
Dec 6, 1999
84
0
0
CRV,

I absolutely DIDN'T miss the Rambus review and NOTHING about it gives you the right to slander him and call him a possible sellout.

I think it was the single worst article that Anand published recently. There was no indication of Part 2 in the original article until there was a huge outcry. I agree that part 2 put it in perspective

A sort of rule of thumb we've always kept around AnandTech is that real world performance should always be the final judge when it comes to recommending or denouncing a particular product.

I agree, and that's why I find the departure from using real world shrink wrapped applications that millions of people to battle of compilers and optimizations flags of SPEC as something that's not desirable. I can tell you the one benchmark I would really like to see: Time to boot up a computer to Windows 2000. I do it daily at least twice: Once on the server, and after it is up on my workstation. I will gladly pay money for a processor or other hardware that will cut thi time down.
 

jhalada

Member
Dec 6, 1999
84
0
0
JohnP,

I like your selection of benchmarks.

In addition to publishing the results of those benchmarks, I would like to see a disclosure if there were any conditions placed on the reviewers by Intel as to which benchmarks they have to run in order to receive the evaluation systems.
 

Macro2

Diamond Member
May 20, 2000
4,874
0
0
Wouldn't surprise me one bit if Anand had to relent to some benchmarks to get a P4 system to test. I expect P4 will do well on SPEC and Quake III.
I also think a lot of naysayers will be crying foul if this is the case.
Very suspicious that SPEC got added just now...very suspicious...
We will see...


Amc
 

GD695372

Senior member
Oct 24, 2000
386
0
0
This forum is premature. what evidence has anand given that he's going to sell out. I personally have the utmost confidence in Anand's integrity, and shall continue to, until such a time as I see his actions taint that integrity.

I just hope RAMBUS goes away soon.
 

jaydee

Diamond Member
May 6, 2000
4,500
3
81
You guys are smoking something, he won't sell out, has no motivation to, and no added incentive. He uses benchmarks he feels appropriate, regardless of what intel wants him to. Absolutely no reason for him to do otherwise.
 

FordLorider

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,493
0
0
This is rather interesting...Juniors take a lot of crap around here but in some instances (this one) it is well deserved. My only question, was it ever a point in any of your childish flames/trollings to every make a point that was wasn't anti-Anand. Anandtech must not be your favorite site but still, that is no reason for your &quot;AMD is King&quot; howlings. It would be a miracle if people like yourself shut your mouth about your Intel 'phobia and used your knowledge to help others with Hardware issues.
 

BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76


<< A sort of rule of thumb we've always kept around AnandTech is that real world performance should always be the final judge when it comes to recommending or denouncing a particular product. >>



CRV,

I just want to point out, that this statement is often not the case here. Most of the people on these forums root for AMD, and try to talk trash about Intel. This doesn't hold true to everyone, but there are many who do this.

Another example of this, is between nVidia and 3dfx. Say a GF2 GTS beats a V5 5500 by 9 FPS when running at 1600x1200 @ 32bit. Who cares. 90% of the people here cannot run at resolutions that high. Then you look at the scores at something like 1024x768 @ 32bit, and each card beats the other in some test by like 3 FPS. Thats real world performance.

In the real world, both cards are great cards, that pull off great framerates, in great visual quality. The better card is only what can be found for a better price. Is that the responce that most people have? No. Apparently the GF2 uses the V5 to mop piss off the floor.
 

Macro2

Diamond Member
May 20, 2000
4,874
0
0
<<&quot;You guys are smoking something, he won't sell out, has no motivation to, and no added incentive. He uses benchmarks he feels appropriate, regardless of what intel wants him to. Absolutely no reason for him to do otherwise&quot;>>


What if, to get a P4 system to test, you had to sign an NDA and then agree to showcase the P4 using certain benchmarks.

If you don't agree you don't get a system.

What if these benchmarks appear in the beginning of the review?

I'm sure Anand will do his best to explain all the P4 benchmarks when we see the review. I'll bet the P4 does really well on Spec2000 and Quake III...
I don't recall seeing these SPec benchmarks so promenantly used in the front of an Anand review before the DDR review...
I hope Intel isn't setting up the guy.
Mac
 

NOX

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
4,077
0
0


<< Somebody has raised a question, which is of interest to them? I see nothing wrong with that. If you disagree, then say so, but I see no reason to be insulting. >>

Are you suggesting calling Anand a ?sell out? is not insulting? Please, if you want to dispute Anands decision to include SPEC as a benchmark then do so, but calling Anand a sell out before the review is even published, is very offensive to the members who put there thrust in Anand to be fair to all manufacturers. Further more, if someone suggested to me that I was a sell out, yes I would respond in a hostile manner!

<< In addition to publishing the results of those benchmarks, I would like to see a disclosure if there were any conditions placed on the reviewers by Intel as to which benchmarks they have to run in order to receive the evaluation systems. >>

Ohhh?what about from AMD??? Biased request!

<< I am sure Anand has no chance but to do the benchmarks that Intel has selected, but his own selected benchmarks should comprise an at-least-equal amount of space and time. Here's some suggestions: >>

Hahaha??Intel?! Do you have evidence that this is even the case? Also, can you please post a link to your website, showing a review which you have done, involving benchmarking CPUs? Thanks!

I wouldn?t be surprised if Anand replied to defend himself, from you anti-Intel.

<< Very suspicious that SPEC got added just now...very suspicious...
We will see...
>>

So if Anand or any other website for that matter decided to include a benchmarking program they?re automatically sell outs?
 

Anand Lal Shimpi

Boss Emeritus
Staff member
Oct 9, 1999
663
1
0
Thanks for the support guys, but there's no reason to flame someone because of his opinion.

jhalada expresses a valid concern, he is worried that the inclusion of SPEC benchmarks will show the Pentium 4 to be better than the Athlon. Before I get to my reasons for including it let's talk about a philosophy of mine that I believe in, this is the philosophy that I founded AnandTech on.

When you come to the site you are placing a great deal of trust in me. The way I picture it is like this, when you come to the site you're placing your money in my hands. Whether it be $100 for a cheap CPU upgrade, or $1000 for a nearly complete system upgrade, you are trusting me with your money. And even if only one person visited AnandTech, that's enough of your money to make me want to give you the most honest, unbiased recommendation I can put together based on the data I have. However a recommendation alone isn't enough, I also need to provide you all with enough data that you can formulate your own conclusions as well. I'm not here to tell you all what to buy, I'm here to educate, and with that education comes the ability to make a more well rounded decision. Now let's take a look at the big picture, AnandTech has close to 2 million individual readers now. Using the upgrade figures alone, you're looking at around $900,000,000.00 every month that all of my readers are entrusting me with (assuming $450 upgrade on average, I know the numbers don't always work out to that but for the sake of the argument let's assume that everyone is planning to upgrade this particular month). There isn't a sum of money on the face of this earth that I would take to jeopardize the hard earned money of each and every one of my readers. Understand that you all are the reason that I am here today, and I am forever thankful for the opportunity that you all have given me.

So there's reason one why I would never succumb to the pressure of a manufacturer assuming that one was present.

Secondly, you've got to give me some credit here. What you're assuming is that the minute someone flashes a green bill in my face I'll immediately drop to my knees and become their whore. I have just a *tad* more integrity than that. You're just going to have to take my word on this one since there's no real way I can prove it to you or anyone else other than by giving me a chance and letting my actions speak for themselves. The net is very self-regulating, and I've always believed that those that aren't reporting the truth or aren't making a conscious effort to provide honest information will eventually feel the effects of the self-regulating internet.

In close to four years that I've been running AnandTech I've been accused of being Intel biased, AMD biased, 3dfx biased, NVIDIA biased, Matrox biased, ATI biased and any other sort of bias that's even theoretically possible. Something tells me that you can't be both Intel and AMD biased at the same time, nor can you be biased towards all manufacturers, yet I've always received at least some email claiming one thing or another. This assumes yet another thing that is completely untrue, that I have something to gain by favoring one manufacturer over another. I don't own any stock in any of the companies I review products for, I don't hold positions on their boards, and I don't get a monthly bonus if I write one thing or another (I'll get to the issue of advertising in a second). I report the truth as I see it, and as I mentioned before, I provide all of the readers with the very same information I use to come to my conclusion in the reviews. It works like this, I use factors A, B and C to determine whether or not I recommend product Z. I provide explanations of those three factors in the review as well as whether or not I recommend product Z. Now if I just put together a quick thing on how product Z is awesome without even presenting those three factors then I can see where there would be a problem, but that's not how I do things.

Now we get to the issue of advertising. We've all got to make money somehow, so here's where we've got Anand, right? Wrong. I used to sell ads for AnandTech through about the end of 1998, and I quickly realized that I really hated selling ads. I wasn't here to do that, and I never really enjoyed it. I hated following up deadbeat advertisers, I hated negotiating with these guys, I hated everything about it. Ever hear of the separation of Church and State? Well, that's how advertising on AnandTech works. AnandTech, Inc. handles editorial content, and nothing more. Instead, I have a small sales force in California (with some reps in Taiwan) and they handle all of the ads. I don't know when a banner is going up until it actually appears on the site or until someone let's me know that the company has just signed on. I don't take advertising requests, I forward them all to my sales staff. And any editorial requests they receive are forwarded back to me. Don't get me wrong, often times manufacturers attempt to pull advertising based on things I have written, but those threats never make it to this side of the coast. I make it *very* clear that the only thing I deal with is editorial content and my sales staff makes it *very* clear that they hold no influence over what I write. Sure, I lose advertisers this way but I'm not here to please advertisers, I'm here because you all have placed your trust in me and your hard earned money in that trust as well. Would you turn down a $30,000 ad contract because it jeopardized that very philosophy? I would, and I have on many occaisions and I will continue to do so. Don't believe me? Disguise yourself as an advertiser and just see how far you'll get with a request to control editorial.

What next, ah yes, stipulations for review samples. I wake up in the morning, go to my morning classes, and when I get back I see packages at the office. I open them up, and what do I see? CPUs, video cards, motherboards, what have you, but no where in the package are a list of stipulations that I have to follow, benchmarks I have to run, or anything like that. The first example that was brought up was the Naturally Speaking benchmark. Let's look back at that review (Pentium III 500) which was published on February 22, 1999. On one page of the 13 page review I included three benchmarks provided by Intel, all three used heavy SSE optimizations and I clearly stated that in the review. If anything, the benchmarks illustrated what SSE *can* do, and we do know that SIMD instructions do play a key part in the performance of today's and future CPUs. Take a look at my Desktop CPU Comparison published in September 1999, read the second section on the first page to read my take on the problem with benchmarks: Desktop CPU Comparison - September 1999

So this brings us to the final point, why on earth would I include SPEC numbers in a review and what do they have to do with anything at all? The Pentium 4 will do wonderfully in some of the SPEC tests, no doubt about it, but is that my reason for including the benchmarks? No. I give both manufacturers an equal chance of succeeding here, I use the most optimized compilers for AMD and the most optimized compilers for Intel. I use the config files that AMD uses as well as the config files that Intel uses. The AMD 760 platform is currently the fasted x86 platform in the SPEC CPU2000 benchmarks, you could just as easily accuse me of following AMD's benchmarking guidelines by including SPEC in the DDR review. But if you've paid any attention to everything I've written above, you may begin to realize that this isn't how I function. Let's look at what SPEC shows us. jhalada asked the following:


<< BTW, how often do you run a weather prediction algorithm on your computer? Do you simulate Northbridge Earthquake? Do you use your computer for face recognition? How about simulation of &quot;large systems of molecules&quot;? >>


And the answer is obvious, you don't. But how often do you run Linpack? How often do you play Expendable? The point of the benchmark isn't to benchmark a specific task that you do, instead it's supposed to point out architectural advantages and disadvantages. Remember that these algorithms and tests were the things that were run on supercomputers not too long ago and the performance under these tests can help predict the performance of a particular CPU/architecture in the future. How long do you think it will take before face recognition is something that is important to desktop users? Do you think you'll be typing in a password to login to your OS indefinitely? Why would you want to run a weather prediction algorithm on your computer? You wouldn't, but analysing the performance of your system when dealing with such a large amount of data can help to predict how a particular CPU/architecture can perform in other situations that aren't as extreme. The point of these benchmarks is to help analyse performance, I don't want you to come and read the review without paying attention to what the benchmarks are saying, I want you to gain a greater understanding from them. If a platform can handle something with a large data set, then what does that say about its FSB, memory bus and cache? If it can't where a competing platform can, what does that say?

I hope I've covered all bases there. jhalada, like I said, you express a valid concern, and you're entitled to an explanation. I've made mine, I hope this can remain as an example to everyone of exactly how passionately I feel about the integrity behind AnandTech. This post isn't directed at jhalada alone, but anyone that has any questions about the honesty and integrity behind AnandTech.

Why is it that me and the rest of the AnandTech team kill ourselves on a daily basis to bring you the most thorough information we can? Why is it that every leading member of our editorial staff is currently juggling school and putting in up to 80 hour work weeks to keep cranking out the reviews? If it were about making the most money with the least amount of work, I guarrantee you that things would be different. There wouldn't be any all nighters, no reviews being posted at 6AM, and definitely no reviews with 100s of benchmarks. Would I run 12 hour SPEC tests just to make Intel happy? Would I buy a $560 copy of Compaq Visual Fortran so I could give AMD a fair chance just to make the Pentium 4 look better? You've got to be kidding

Take care,
Anand
 
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