Windows 8.1 Upgrade Mandatory

[oynaz]

Linux still fails the user friendly test.

So does Windows 8.

 

[mikeymikec]

8.1 is definitely going to break those start bar replacements. I would uninstall them completely before doing the upgrade just to be sure, and then reinstall the inevitable 8.1 compatible versions afterwards.

I'm starting to wonder whether the Start button addition to 8.1 isn't about anything like "Microsoft is listening to its customers", even in a disingenuous fashion (it wasn't about the button itself, it was about having the Start menu back), but about Microsoft again trying to emphasise "our way or the highway" on the topic of Metro apps.

 

[smakme7757]

Getting the start button back does make it easier to use a Windows 8/Server 2012 PC over remote desktop as the hot-corners are a real PITA.

 

[imagoon]

Getting the start button back does make it easier to use a Windows 8/Server 2012 PC over remote desktop as the hot-corners are a real PITA.

/agree

 

[Mushkins]

Getting the start button back does make it easier to use a Windows 8/Server 2012 PC over remote desktop as the hot-corners are a real PITA.

The hot-corners are a PITA regardless of RDP, about a half inch of screen real estate around the whole border of your desktop is practically an unusable dead zone. Trying to click boxes or icons and going just a little too far activates the stupid touch gestures and you end up opening search or hot swiping back to the metro menu. It's probably fine on a tablet where it's really hard to accidentally tap the edge of the screen, but it's WAY easier to move your mouse too far and then correct, only to trigger the stupid menus.

And of course, when you actually want to trigger the menus, they dont pop up.

 

[taltamir]

I am not really surprised. Microsoft's entire strategy since Windows 8 was to push the changes onto you with no option to go classic mode at all. The fact they now think you must have the upgraded version so badly that they will rip support out form underneath you, and tie the latest version of DX to it to force everyone onto it is consistent. If ever there was a business acting like it had a monopoly it would be Microsoft with Windows. Of course it actually doesn't, its market share is slowly shrinking and other big fish came and ate its future lunch quite a few years ago, its funny in the end Unix won and nobody realised!

Microsoft has done plenty of bad things and its behaviour around Windows 8 has hit it in the pocket, but not enough yet for it to fix the illness that seems to have taken them over. No matter when they go bust our problem will be solved, am I right?!

Didn't you hear? MS is too big to fail. Also they are generous campaign donors, and generous campaign donors get the bacon.
http://www.geekwire.com/2013/score-microsoft-defense-department-windows/

Quick math shows that the US paid 1869.69$ per each individual copy of windows 8. At a time when home users had to pay a mere 40$ per copy. Talk about amazing negotiation skills.

 

[imagoon]

Didn't you hear? MS is too big to fail. Also they are generous campaign donors, and generous campaign donors get the bacon.
http://www.geekwire.com/2013/score-microsoft-defense-department-windows/

Quick math shows that the US paid 1869.69$ per each individual copy of windows 8. At a time when home users had to pay a mere 40$ per copy. Talk about amazing negotiation skills.

While I can't state this as fact...

Those copies don't magically just appear on machines because they bought it.
DoD doesn't run the same "Windows" that you or I do. It is typically a similar but more locked down code base.
They likely got a version of SA which isn't free.
Windows Enterprise was never $40
It likely includes licensing for things like SCCM.

among a few other things I am not even thinking of.

$1870 / seat could a deal TCO wise.

 

[taltamir]

While I can't state this as fact...

Those copies don't magically just appear on machines because they bought it.

And MS isn't going to be installing it for them.

DoD doesn't run the same "Windows" that you or I do. It is typically a similar but more locked down code base.
They likely got a version of SA which isn't free.
Windows Enterprise was never $40
It likely includes licensing for things like SCCM.

among a few other things I am not even thinking of.

$1870 / seat could a deal TCO wise.

Maybe... now I am curious as to what, specifically, they got.

 

[RU482]

"Mandatory"....nothing like sensationalizing the issue

 

[imagoon]

And MS isn't going to be installing it for them.

Where is the invoice so we can check? Who says that entire number doesn't include professional services?

 

[Mushkins]

And MS isn't going to be installing it for them.



Maybe... now I am curious as to what, specifically, they got.

Yeah, the DoD absolutely didn't just buy a bunch of $40/user Windows 8 licenses, thats not how licensing on that scale works at all. Enterprise licensing has *always* been considerably more expensive than retail licensing for a lot of reasons, one of the key factors being a single image-friendly product key. There's also enterprise level support directly from microsoft, other services such as SCCM, features exclusive to Enterprise versions of the OS that are restricted in Professional/Home, dedicated account representatives, and professional services related to the deployment. At that level they're not just selling you licenses and saying have a nice day, you're paying them to assist you with deploying those licenses too.

Its absolutely not the same ball game as retail licensing, and $1600/license for a deployment of 330,000 is very much a deal when you're considering the enterprise-level services and support tied to that contract. For a little perspective, I worked on a deployment contract years back for my state govt of about 12,000. The team working on it was reasonably sized when you think about all the businessmen involved, the planning teams, and the actual deployment techs. It took about two years from conception to completion of the project. I'm pretty sure the DoD is going to want a much smaller deployment timetable for... almost 30x as many installs. That's a lot of manpower, a lot of planning/testing/etc, and above all else a lot of money. As the article said, the DoD claims this project is actually saving them tens of millions in licensing costs. We'll never know how much of that is PR glad handing compared to the actual numbers, but if the cost breaks down to about $1600 per install I wouldn't be surprised at all if the transition is actually financially beneficial to the DoD and not just frivolous palm-greasing.

As for what Windows 8 will cost them in productivity... the world may never know It doesn't specify how much of that licensing is meant for the deployment of Windows 8 tablets or anything either, there's no reason to assume this is purely a deployment of 330,000 Windows 8 desktops.

 

[hoorah]

Getting the start button back does make it easier to use a Windows 8/Server 2012 PC over remote desktop as the hot-corners are a real PITA.

Agreed.

 

[taltamir]

Yeah, the DoD absolutely didn't just buy a bunch of $40/user Windows 8 licenses, thats not how licensing on that scale works at all. Enterprise licensing has *always* been considerably more expensive than retail licensing for a lot of reasons, one of the key factors being a single image-friendly product key. There's also enterprise level support directly from microsoft, other services such as SCCM, features exclusive to Enterprise versions of the OS that are restricted in Professional/Home, dedicated account representatives, and professional services related to the deployment. At that level they're not just selling you licenses and saying have a nice day, you're paying them to assist you with deploying those licenses too.

MS Customer support? for DoD? seriously?

I am personally experienced in modifying an MSDN image into a VL or OEM license key, it is a trivial thing where you change a single file on the install disk (and perfectly legal as long as you have the license and MSDN subscription). So the only way this is it is if they are they just paying a "convenience fee" here for the VL license. And convenience fees are total ripoffs. Also, last I checked bulk purchases are supposed to be cheaper not more expensive.

The only thing you listed that is an actual add on is SCCM, which by itself doesn't justify the 4650% markup over the consumer version.

 

[imagoon]

MS Customer support? for DoD? seriously?

I am personally experienced in modifying an MSDN image into a VL or OEM license key, it is a trivial thing where you change a single file on the install disk (and perfectly legal as long as you have the license and MSDN subscription). So the only way this is it is if they are they just paying a "convenience fee" here for the VL license. And convenience fees are total ripoffs. Also, last I checked bulk purchases are supposed to be cheaper not more expensive.

The only thing you listed that is an actual add on is SCCM, which by itself doesn't justify the 4650% markup over the consumer version.

It is fairly obvious you don't deal with these types of deployments nor the TCO of a project like this. That number is a bargain if it is a TCO type install. You seem to not understand that Microsoft does have a professional services arm and they might be utilizing it or contracting another vendor to do the professional services. "Swaping a file" on an MSDN disc is completely irrelevant here so I am not sure why you would bring that up.

 

[Mem]

I'm starting to wonder whether the Start button addition to 8.1 isn't about anything like "Microsoft is listening to its customers", even in a disingenuous fashion (it wasn't about the button itself, it was about having the Start menu back), but about Microsoft again trying to emphasise "our way or the highway" on the topic of Metro apps.

To be fair you could argue when Win95 was first released they wanted you to use Win95 and Start button menu their way,Win8 is new and they are doing same thing ie use it" their way",not a big deal and I still can't see what all the fuss is over the old start button menu,Win8 is a new approach just like Win95 was and easy enough to handle either.

I would say with respect I do wonder if some users should stick to consoles if they can't handle an OS like Win8 which is just a simple Windows OS with new UI,we have seen lots of those in the past since DOS days.


As to Win8.1 upgrade being mandatory I guess its not a real issue and does bring improvements etc...

 

[Mushkins]

MS Customer support? for DoD? seriously?

I am personally experienced in modifying an MSDN image into a VL or OEM license key, it is a trivial thing where you change a single file on the install disk (and perfectly legal as long as you have the license and MSDN subscription). So the only way this is it is if they are they just paying a "convenience fee" here for the VL license. And convenience fees are total ripoffs. Also, last I checked bulk purchases are supposed to be cheaper not more expensive.

The only thing you listed that is an actual add on is SCCM, which by itself doesn't justify the 4650% markup over the consumer version.

Uh... Yes, MS Customer support for the DoD. I'm not talking "call the 1800 number" level of support, im talking direct access to high level engineers and enterprise support teams. The consumer support world and the enterprise support world are practically two entirely different companies under the same name.

I've actually worked in environments with large scale enterprise licensing from Microsoft and my team engaged that level of microsoft support on more than one occasion to help us track down all sorts of high level WTF issues relating to the deployment of windows updates and why they happened to break our proprietary internal software. We needed to know what they changed and how important it was so our programmers could either work around it and deploy an emergency patch or we could roll back the update.

Changing the key on a system image has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. The business agreements, SLAs, and professional services surrounding the purchase of that key for use on 330,000 systems is absolutely what we're talking about. In fact, those services and agreements are pretty much exactly what "business" versions of things base that markup on. You're not paying $15000 for a router because it's a $15000 piece of equipment, you're paying $15000 for it to work when you need it to, or have someone who speaks clear english on the phone in minutes when it doesnt (or at your door within X hours to fix it in person). Time is money, downtime is a lot of money.

 

[mikeymikec]

To be fair you could argue when Win95 was first released they wanted you to use Win95 and Start button menu their way,

Granted, though at least Win95 was aimed at the vast majority of Microsoft's userbase (desktop/laptop users without touch-screen).

 

[Mem]

Granted, though at least Win95 was aimed at the vast majority of Microsoft's userbase (desktop/laptop users without touch-screen).

True but hardware has changed a lot since those days,no tablets or smartphones,touch screen,multi monitors etc...

 

[mikeymikec]

True but hardware has changed a lot since those days,no tablets or smartphones,touch screen,multi monitors etc...

The implication in the point that I was making was that the vast majority of today's Windows users are not using touch devices, and Win8 hasn't changed that behaviour. As a result, an OS has been designed without its primary audience in mind.

 

[Mem]

The implication in the point that I was making was that the vast majority of today's Windows users are not using touch devices, and Win8 hasn't changed that behaviour. As a result, an OS has been designed without its primary audience in mind.

That's why Win8 is a hybrid OS it can handle mouse and keyboard or touch,that's down to the user,personally I only use mouse and keyboard on my desktop and laptop,it does make Win8 a versatile OS.

Primary you mean desktop user,well a lot of those do use different devices,end of the day Win8 covers it all.

I do have a touch tablet and smartphone(Android) however I still feel Win8 tablets are too expensive and poor selection of models (stated this many times in the forums).

 

[taltamir]

Changing the key on a system image has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

not changing the key, changing a DRM config file to switch it between accepting VL keys, Retail keys, and OEM keys. Microsoft doesn't build special DRM just for the VL keys, it uses the exact same DRM system, only from a different key pool with unlimited machines per key.

My whole point is that it is basically one big convenience fee for "mass deployment". 330 million dollars is a ridiculous figure for mere deployment tools. There are a ton of third party tools that handle imaging and at this kind of budget they could hire programmers to make their own custom deployment tool.

4650% markup on a bulk purchase in exchange for less onerous DRM is a terrible deal.

 

[Mushkins]

not changing the key, changing a DRM config file to switch it between accepting VL keys, Retail keys, and OEM keys. Microsoft doesn't build special DRM just for the VL keys, it uses the exact same DRM system, only from a different key pool with unlimited machines per key.

My whole point is that it is basically one big convenience fee for "mass deployment". 330 million dollars is a ridiculous figure for mere deployment tools. There are a ton of third party tools that handle imaging and at this kind of budget they could hire programmers to make their own custom deployment tool.

4650% markup on a bulk purchase in exchange for less onerous DRM is a terrible deal.

Yes, that's how the key checking algorithm works. That still has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

It's way more than a big convenience fee for mass deployment, multiple people have tried to explain the actual business and contractual support behind it and you're just not getting it for some reason. This is not at all about software deployment tools or imaging, it's about actual people who get paid actual salaries to do actual professional project work, and ongoing high level support contracts. The actual Windows 8 software license is by and large the smallest bullet point on the list in this $600 Million dollar contract.

 

[taltamir]

Yes, that's how the key checking algorithm works. That still has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

Someone said earlier that part of the extra fee is for the keys to be VL, I am explaining how VL keys use the same DRM system and thus it is not the keys themselves that cost extra.

It's way more than a big convenience fee for mass deployment, multiple people have tried to explain the actual business and contractual support behind it and you're just not getting it for some reason

None of them said anything of any substance or accuracy (the claim made earlier that the keys are special and different is substanceful but false)
Also, none of them seem to agree. And I am still waiting for specifics of what it is about rather than just speculative platitudes

This is not at all about software deployment tools or imaging

Except,some of your vaunted "several people explaining this to you" have explicitly said it was the software deployment tools. One even suggest MS contractors will be going and personally performing the installation for the DoD instead of people with actual clearance.

it's about actual people who get paid actual salaries to do actual professional project work, and ongoing high level support contracts

Oho, a specific! (although still speculated)
So, you say that the only reason for the markup is the "enterprise level" customer support.

Take it down a notch, guys. There's no reason for this hostility
-ViRGE

 

[VirtualLarry]

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9241230/Microsoft_mandates_Windows_8.1_upgrade

Support will end for 8.0 after 2 years.
Personally, I am a little shocked by this.

It does seem harsh at first glance, but when you consider that the "gold" release of Windows 7 is also losing support very soon now, if it hasn't already, then it kind of makes sense.

Especially if 8.1 is more like a glorified service pack for 8.

Kind of like the Win98 to Win98SE step-up pack. Even better if 8.1 turns out to be completely free for 8.0 users.

 

[imagoon]

It does seem harsh at first glance, but when you consider that the "gold" release of Windows 7 is also losing support very soon now, if it hasn't already, then it kind of makes sense.

Especially if 8.1 is more like a glorified service pack for 8.

Kind of like the Win98 to Win98SE step-up pack. Even better if 8.1 turns out to be completely free for 8.0 users.

It also isn't true.