Windows 8 Dev Preview

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HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,832
37
91
This is Windows...there will be TONS of hacks, tweaks, mods and utilities available, you know companies like Stardock are not just gonna sit there. So i don't understand why anyone should really give a crap about the UI at this point in time.

Its said W8 will use less services and smaller footprint, boot faster than W7 sp1. You can also use all your regular apps....Faster and Compatable...so whats the real complaint here?
 

smartpatrol

Senior member
Mar 8, 2006
870
0
0
1. You don't close metro apps. They keep running until you change to another metro app or use the classic desktop. The tile puzzle app will keep playing a video if I leave it, but the audio doesn't play if I'm in another metro app. That could be a bug.. only MS would know for sure.

Got it. It must just be a bug. I was referring to the "Tube Rider" game. And I just tested it -- it does indeed keep playing even if you exit out to the Start screen. I'd imagine that's not the intended behavior.

2. Hit Win + I and use the power button in the bottom middle.

Thanks. Is there any other way to bring up that menu? Just wondering if there is some easily-discoverable way that an average user would figure out.

3. What other ways did you launch programs in windows 7 aside from the start menu or a shortcut on your desktop? On a Pc, the metro UI is the new start menu, essentially.

I just find it jarring that you have to essentially navigate away from the desktop, and scroll through all your live tiles/Metro apps, just to launch a non-Metro application.
 
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finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
to shut down, just go to settings on the "start" menu, and go to shut down on the rght
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Another day of playing around with Win8...

They really need to put in a better way to manage tasks. Alt Tab or swiping from the left is a bit inefficient, especially when you have a number of apps open. It would be nice if you down swiped from start screen and saw a visual representation of all your running apps.
The metaphor they're going for in Metro is the same as a tablet/phone - you're not supposed to care what's open because it's going to be suspended when it's not active. There are a few exceptions to this (e.g. media players), but those have to make additional API calls to be allowed to do anything while in the background.
2. How do I shut down? The only ways I've found are either from the ctrl-alt-delete menu, or else by logging off, unlocking your computer, and selecting shut down from the logon screen.
Win + I has already been mentioned. The "normal" way would be to bring up the charm list (touch: swipe left from edge; mouse: click in the bottom-left corner), go to the Settings charm, and the requisite controls are in there.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
69,873
13,431
126
www.anyf.ca
I've been playing around with it in a VM, it's kinda neat, at least for a home environment, but I hope this stuff can be turned down to windows classic, for corporate environments. I can't imagine myself actually using such a "toyish" interface for work. But that's just me. I also hope it wont be TOO concentrated on touch screens. While I do think PC based tablets have a certain use, perhaps even in a work environment, for a desktop PC mouse and keyboard is where it's at.
 

Griffinhart

Golden Member
Dec 7, 2004
1,130
1
76
The metaphor they're going for in Metro is the same as a tablet/phone - you're not supposed to care what's open because it's going to be suspended when it's not active. There are a few exceptions to this (e.g. media players), but those have to make additional API calls to be allowed to do anything while in the background.

I understand that. But part of task management is being able to easily move from app to app, and cycling through a bunch of running apps through swipes or alt-tab being the default way of multitasking is terribly inefficient. There is nothing like the taskbar or expose to simply select what running application you want to quickly move to.

Try this with Windows 8.

Open 3 Metro style apps. Something that won't close automatcially after a few minutes. Explorer, and active remote desktop and control panel are good. Now open 3 traditional Windows apps.

Using the touch "swipe from the left" gesture to move between windows, how many tasks are you moving through? Answer: 4 the 3 metro apps and the one Windows Desktop. The Metro UI sees these 6 Apps as only 4.

Now, use Alt-Tab. It more properly cycles through all 6 apps individual. It doesn't matter if it's a Metro-style app or a traditional windows app. It will cycle through each individual app.

If you are running a lot of apps at once, which is something I do all the time, Alt-tab is terribly inefficient to move between apps. I know I almost never use Alt-Tab or Win-Tab to move between windows today.

If you are using a combination of Traditional and Metro syle apps, and touch only, you will be in situations where you have to swipe between apps to get to the "windows desktop" and them seperately pick apps from the taskbar to move them into focus. This is extremely inconsistant and bad design.

The Metro UI is extremely suited to touch, tablet and other small form factor devices, and for users that merely do a handful of things with their machines. A game , e-mail, a bit of surfing. This type of user or these type of devices will never see a problem since there isn't much to manage. On the other hand, a more sophisticated user on a more capable machine will be hamstrung.

Another problem I have with this new metaphor is that Metro does away with the "desktop" concept. Or at least it's trying hard to do away with it. Many pundits are speculating that MS won't even include the traditional windows desktop on ARM devices, as they will not be able to run x86/x64 apps and only need to run Metro-Apps.

What makes the desktop metaphor so great is that it give the user a natural workspace to manage current tasks, both in the form of running applications and as a place to work and store currently relevant documents and other files. The Metro UI doesn't provide a logical and natural way for me to manage my physical workflow. It is simply something that lets me run and swap between apps. I find the traditional desktop metaphor an extremely valuable too for managing my current projects. It's a virtual extension to my physical desktop.

Another problem with the who Metro metaphor is that it wants us to live in full screen apps. At best, you will be able to partially split screen between two metro apps. This is fine data consumption, light work, or small screens where you need to run an app in that mode for it to be useful, but on a desktop PC, especially one with mutliple monitors, the Metro metaphor is extremely limiting and hinders productivity.

The way Win8 looks today, I will recommend it to friends and family that are extremely casual computer users, or if they want to have a tablet type device. But, to my friends that use desktops and use it to get actual work done, I won't be able to recommend it to them. A number of changes need to happen before I am willing to do that.

-The Swipe gesture needs to cycle between all running apps, not just metro apps.
-There needs to be a more efficient way to swap between apps, for when you have many running. An example would be a gesture, hotspot, or keystroke that would bring up an expose like window allowing me to more quickly and effeciently move between apps.
-There needs to be an easy method for "power users" to treat the metro UI as optional with a way to run all windows applications in either full screen or windowed mode.

There is still plenty of time for all of this to happen, and it may well be the eventual plan. This is, after all, just a developer preview and the first time the Windows Metro UI has been put in the public's hands. We'll see how the development moves ahead.

All this said, I will be running Win8 on my Asus EP 121 tablet and my HP TM-2. It will be especially welcome on the Asus machine. But on my desktop, this still remains to be seen. The way Win8 appears TODAY, I see heavy adoption for tablets and some low end PCs, but general computer usage sticking to Win7 for some time to come..
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
I don't have a problem with change. I have a problem when change doesn't bring a benefit. Just being different isn't enough.
Exactly.

The whole concept of Metro leaves me underwhelmed to say the least. And yes, even as a tablet interface. And it it takes legions of geeks pages and pages of chatter to explain why it's sooooooo great- then it's not that great. Truly great human interfaces speak for themselves.

But I see a lot of promise in other features and improvements in Windows 8.
 
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Oct 27, 2007
17,009
5
0
Open 3 Metro style apps. Something that won't close automatcially after a few minutes. Explorer, and active remote desktop and control panel are good. Now open 3 traditional Windows apps.

Using the touch "swipe from the left" gesture to move between windows, how many tasks are you moving through? Answer: 4 the 3 metro apps and the one Windows Desktop. The Metro UI sees these 6 Apps as only 4.

Now, use Alt-Tab. It more properly cycles through all 6 apps individual. It doesn't matter if it's a Metro-style app or a traditional windows app. It will cycle through each individual app.

If you are running a lot of apps at once, which is something I do all the time, Alt-tab is terribly inefficient to move between apps. I know I almost never use Alt-Tab or Win-Tab to move between windows today.

If you are using a combination of Traditional and Metro syle apps, and touch only, you will be in situations where you have to swipe between apps to get to the "windows desktop" and them seperately pick apps from the taskbar to move them into focus. This is extremely inconsistant and bad design.
Wow, this sounds awful.
 

jobz

Member
Jun 9, 2009
117
0
0
We wouldn't be in this mess if ms didn't try to shoehorn tablet UI into a desktop os. They're still trying to rely on the Windows brand, which says a lot about the company.

Many has mentioned this is only a dev preview version, give them a chance. I'd say ms is a big company with plenty of resources, this is the best they have come up with in all this time!!
 
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Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,027
0
76
I'm not impressed. The start button sometimes screws up and doesn't come up on mouseover, having both Metro and traditional desktop interfaces feels awkward, I had to shut down through cmd because I couldn't find the shutdown button for the life of me, and in general it just seems slow and...well, crappy.

On the other hand, I can imagine it being quite cool having this on a tablet or smartphone. The Metro UI would work pretty well for touchscreen devices.

I know it's just a developer's preview, and I'm sure hoping it will improve greatly before it ships. Otherwise I think for non-touchscreen devices, Microsoft will have another XP/Vista on its hands.
 

espaghetti

Junior Member
Oct 23, 2009
2
0
0
I used Win 8 for about 4 hours. I guess MS wants me to get rid of my G9x, G11 & 24' monitor. Just trying to use the desktop was a lesson in futility. Navigation is very unintuitive. I own a iPhone and a nook. I can appreciate a mobile touchscreen GUI.
Sitting at my desk, I looked up how to turn the metro GUI off. Now Windows 8 behaves like a faster windows 7. BTW, my task manager shows up blank. Resource monitor works though.
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71
I bet most of you were absolutely dreaming about the day that you could have an interactive interface similar to that seen in Minority Report. That seems to have become the standard by which computer user interfaces are gravitating.

That said, have any of you tried using on a laptop with a touchpad? I too was a bit annoyed, then I installed the multi-touch drivers for my laptop's touchpad and the UI got more usable. Now I am considering installing the OS on my desktop and then installing the drivers for my Bamboo pad to see what else I can get out of it.

Bottom line, they never said this wasn't intended to be a touch interface. The keynotes I've watched they repeatedly stated that they see a day when the mouse goes away entirely, meaning some kind of touch interface will be the standard. Quite frankly, I welcome the demise of the mouse.

Also, everyone needs to remember that this is barely even an alpha build. This is little more than a public tech demo. Half of what you guys are complaining about are "solved" in the more advanced builds they've showcased elsewhere. This is what it is, a way to put the interface out there and get developers to consider how to build better apps for it.
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,832
37
91
I bet most of you were absolutely dreaming about the day that you could have an interactive interface similar to that seen in Minority Report. That seems to have become the standard by which computer user interfaces are gravitating.

That said, have any of you tried using on a laptop with a touchpad? I too was a bit annoyed, then I installed the multi-touch drivers for my laptop's touchpad and the UI got more usable. Now I am considering installing the OS on my desktop and then installing the drivers for my Bamboo pad to see what else I can get out of it.

Bottom line, they never said this wasn't intended to be a touch interface. The keynotes I've watched they repeatedly stated that they see a day when the mouse goes away entirely, meaning some kind of touch interface will be the standard. Quite frankly, I welcome the demise of the mouse.

Also, everyone needs to remember that this is barely even an alpha build. This is little more than a public tech demo. Half of what you guys are complaining about are "solved" in the more advanced builds they've showcased elsewhere. This is what it is, a way to put the interface out there and get developers to consider how to build better apps for it.

The complaints are about its potential/eventual use on the desktop Pc with mouse and kb. Not its use on touchscreens or fantasies of some movie you saw too much of. Everyone knows its alpha capt. obvious, some just dont like Metro UI which is going to be in the final release in some form or fashion regardless.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Griffinhart, I'm going to be honest that sounded like a really weak reason to make that rant. Even from a user perspective keeping the two separated by the barrier of the desktop app makes sense. I honestly would have made the same design decision. also win+tab tiles in 7 and you can literally use your mouse to click on any application you see on screen(same in alt+tab) how is this any less efficient or slower than swiping through your list of running applications? It isn't.

TBH I'm not sure how I like the Metro UI on a desktop, I've only spent a little time with it and it seems like it's going to take some getting used to.
 

M0RPH

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,302
1
0
I tried the Win8 preview and couldn't really figure out what the hell is going on. How exactly are you supposed to switch apps? (other than alt-tab, which I've never used) Are you supposed to click the Start button to switch to another app?
 

Griffinhart

Golden Member
Dec 7, 2004
1,130
1
76
Griffinhart, I'm going to be honest that sounded like a really weak reason to make that rant. Even from a user perspective keeping the two separated by the barrier of the desktop app makes sense. I honestly would have made the same design decision. also win+tab tiles in 7 and you can literally use your mouse to click on any application you see on screen(same in alt+tab) how is this any less efficient or slower than swiping through your list of running applications? It isn't.

TBH I'm not sure how I like the Metro UI on a desktop, I've only spent a little time with it and it seems like it's going to take some getting used to.

Using ALT-Tab in Win 7 is really only efficient if you only have a couple of windows open. But if you have a fairly large number of windows open, it's not very. That's one problem. The other problem is the inconsistancy in design. There is no way to ALT-Tab through running apps when using touch only and as a result, no easy, single place to go to see what's running and easily switch between all running apps.

As I have mentioned before, I plan to get Win8 for my tablets. I think it's going to be a big help there and. But, on my Desktop, I see a few neat features that I like, but mostly I see a computing metaphor that is not going to work as well as Win 7 for getting work done.

I honestly feel that full screen metro apps aren't going aren't going to be this huge thing that MS hopes. I predict that the vast majority of Metro apps will be small, generally "light" versions of current applications by small software houses that make using touch devices more useful. Stuff that doesn't take a lot of time and money to develop.

Major software developers will do one of three things:

They will continue to only release traditional style windows apps since it doesn't require them learning new API's. or limit their market. A traditional Windows App will run in Win 8 as well as Win7, Vista, XP... Metro apps will only run in Win8. I just don't see companies abandoning traditional apps all together and giving up all the potential customers not on Win8. Especially considering that Win7 only just surpassed XP in the CONSUMER market. If you factor in Win2K and Vista, Win7 is still less than half of the consumer market, and even less of the business market.

They may add a Metro view to their apps that becomes enabled on Win8 Machines, but likely the real emphasis will still be on the traditional side of the app since that's what the majority of their customers will be using.

In both of these scenarios, a coherant and consistant desktop design in Windows is still hugely important.

The final possibility we'll likely see are "Lite, Metro Only" vesions of major software releases focused around touch developed independantly from the primary desktop versions. I can see, as an example, Adobe evolving "Elements" into a touch friendly metro app, eventually, but I just don't see Photoshop, Lightroom, etc becoming full screen only Metro apps. Those that heavily use this software won't go for it.

So, the traditional desktop isn't going to go away soon, if ever. Win8 needs to meld bothi the touch friendly Metro UI with the existing desktop UI in a way that works consistantly and coherantly. If they don't do it, you're going to see that Win8 will only be popular on tablets but the desktop world will mostly ignore it.
 
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lol123

Member
May 18, 2011
162
0
0
People have different cognitive styles ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_style ).

For many that are new (or tried and gave up) the choice of less verbal oriented system might be a savior.

For Savvy users. If they want to use the Metro they will have to learn few more units of None verbal info.

Unfortunately there will be always people that Cognitively can not deal with Visual/Tactile memory, have inflexible Cognitive system, or just an oppositional personalty. Those can stick with the none Metro old interface.


Was that the official Microsoft policy with regard to the corporate customers who refused to upgrade from XP as well? That they have an "oppositional personality" and should really just be ignored?

You can sulk all you like about how we don't appreciate your innovation, but when you have another Vista disaster on your hands I suspect the Board of Directors and the shareholders will have a few things to say about how you developers are running things.
 

smartpatrol

Senior member
Mar 8, 2006
870
0
0
Windows 8 will have a curated app store for Metro apps. I'd imagine lots of developers will embrace it. It gives consumers an easy way to discover and buy their software.

I do hope MS make it easy to disable the Metro interface altogether and revert to the Windows 7 style Start menu. That way it would essentially be a faster & more efficient version of Windows 7. I'd imagine that would be more attractive for business/enterprise users.
 

DirkGently1

Senior member
Mar 31, 2011
904
0
0
I really don't understand the direction Microsoft are going with this. Yes, it's sensible to have one OS that can be used accross multiple devices but why not have seperate SKU for each? i.e Windows 8 Smartphone Edition/Tablet Edition/Desktop Edition.

Who needs great honking tiles on a desktop??
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
I would hate to be a windows programmer right now. Watch some of the build presentations on how they are changing the way programs are run and all the new layers they are adding. It looks like a convoluted mess that is going to be a breeding ground for malware.

The windows runtime:
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/PLAT-874T

Watch that one and there are a dozens of other video streams from Build that wil give you a better idea of what they are doing.
 

donutt

Junior Member
Sep 21, 2011
2
0
0
hi all - newbie here
win 8 preview - same problem on 2 different installs different pcs

usb flash drives 2gb / 4gb and external unpowered 250gb are not recognised -

but a powered wd elements 1tb is seen ok - HELP !!

anyone else experience this unpowered versus powered usb mass storage issue ?

anyone know of any workaround for it ? - I simply cannot copy to or from my usb drives as they arent "seen"
 
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Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
hi all - newbie here
win 8 preview - same problem on 2 different installs different pcs

usb flash drives 2gb / 4gb and external unpowered 250gb are not recognised -

but a powered wd elements 1tb is seen ok - HELP !!

anyone else experience this unpowered versus powered usb mass storage issue ?

anyone know of any workaround for it ? - I simply cannot copy to or from my usb drives as they arent "seen"

USB ports are specified to be able to deliver 500 mA (0.5 amps) of current to each device. The flash drives don't draw much, but combined with the motor on the unpowered HD, you may be drawing more current than your system can deliver. This is most likely to happen if you're plugging your devices into an unpowered multi-port expander which is then plugged into your system. I've found that laptops are sometimes more sensitive to this because they may not be able provide the full 500 mA to as many ports as they have.

The powered drive offloads this problem by providing current for the drive motor.

Hope that helps.
 

donutt

Junior Member
Sep 21, 2011
2
0
0
thanks Harvey

but its definitely a Windows 8 issue (i guess we have to expect that in a pre-release)

Because I have Windows 7 dualbooting on each of the 2 PC's and Windows 7 sees ALL the USB devices i mentioned in my first post ( on BOTH PC's - and allows copying to and from them - its only when I use Windows 8 Preview that this happens - i'd be interested if anyone else experienced the same issue

other than that Win8 Preview has done everything ive asked of it so far but this is really frustrating
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
I would hate to be a windows programmer right now. Watch some of the build presentations on how they are changing the way programs are run and all the new layers they are adding. It looks like a convoluted mess that is going to be a breeding ground for malware.

The windows runtime:
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/PLAT-874T

Watch that one and there are a dozens of other video streams from Build that wil give you a better idea of what they are doing.
I agree it's a convoluted mess. However I'm not sure why it would be a breeding ground for malware?
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
I agree it's a convoluted mess. However I'm not sure why it would be a breeding ground for malware?

The more complex you make something the more the chance that programmers will not understand it completely. This will lead to a greater chance of places where security is likely to fail.
 
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