Windows Vista Rules.

[Quinton McLeod]

Originally posted by: Slackware

Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod

Originally posted by: BD2003

Honestly, at this point, I've chosen to ignore the troll. Unless people start actually agreeing with him about the BS and lies he spouts, I'm just going to assume everyone already realizes he has no idea what he's talking about.

Have you even tried any other OS for more than 6 months?
You've been using Windows XP for majority of what you do. You can't tell an improvement from a chalked-on feature found on another OS.

Most people here don't know much about Linux and OS 10. So, they cannot comment. Same goes for you.

Take a look at my name and guess.

Not really used XP all that much but i'm probably more knowledgable about it's inner workings than most though.

I know more about Linux than you will ever learn, i don't know what OS 10 is though.

Most people here are very knowledgable about ALL current OS's and you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, you have lost every argument you ever attempted to make and you have pretty much made sure that everyone knows about your ignorance with your constant bickering.

If i were you i'd go for the full triple and post nude pics of myself in a thong.

I said most people. Obviously, you do not fall in that category.

 

[Slackware]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
Well Creative has always been known for putting out crap hardware and software so I doubt Vista is any way responsibel for that and nVidia supposedly released Vista RTM drivers recently so their issues might be gone.

I wholeheartedly agree with the first point, but the new Nvidia drivers seem to have a whole heap of problems too.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod

Originally posted by: JonnyBlaze

is it impossible to make a os that is as widely used as windows virus proof.

No, it is NOT impossible. Microsoft doesn't yield to the security experts when they are told not to program something a certain way. The end result leads to security exploits and more viruses that utilize those exploits.

Not good enough. Be specific. Show us you actually know what YOU'RE talking about, not that you can find links of other people who know what they're talking about.

What improper programming methods do they use that lead to viruses and exploits? Enlighten me.

 

[Quinton McLeod]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Instead of Microsoft making their OS virus-proof. They simply release an anti-malware suite to remedy the problem. That's just as bad as a car dealer selling you a car and then saying, "Oh, and since our car is known to have X issue, you'll need to buy these X items here to repair them."

Any sufficently open operating system will have the issue of people writing malicious code for it and exploiting that openness. By your horrible car example, it's if you say since you can run your car into a tree and destroy it, you must not sell cars.

And again, what is your security qualifications to be making such a comment?

I did say I wouldn't talk to you any more, but I like debating

Your claim isn't true. Apache is open source and IIS is closed source. IIS is targeted more than Apache and Apache is used on majority of the web servers out there.

Linux is open source and OS 10's source code is out there, yet there aren't as many exploits.

Just because the source is out there, doesn't make it more vulnerable.

If you run a car into a tree, then that is YOUR fault, and not the dealer's

 

[bsobel]

No, it is NOT impossible. Microsoft doesn't yield to the security experts when they are told not to program something a certain way. The end result leads to security exploits and more viruses that utilize those exploits.

Specific examples please. I can't wait to see what you consider a security expert, and what they've told MS to do that they haven't.

And generally speaking, viri don't exploit exploits. But I wouldn't expect you to get your terminology write since you have no idea what your talking about.

Bill

p.s. We still want to see that security resume of yours....

 

[Quinton McLeod]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod

Originally posted by: JonnyBlaze

is it impossible to make a os that is as widely used as windows virus proof.

No, it is NOT impossible. Microsoft doesn't yield to the security experts when they are told not to program something a certain way. The end result leads to security exploits and more viruses that utilize those exploits.

Not good enough. Be specific. Show us you actually know what YOU'RE talking about, not that you can find links of other people who know what they're talking about.

What improper programming methods do they use that lead to viruses and exploits? Enlighten me.

Ok!

Windows XP:
Everyone is set as Administrator. When infected by a virus, the virus has admin rights to the machine

Browser is integrated with the kernel. When there is an exploit in the browser, it immediately turns into a critical exploits because the entire system is in jeopardy.

System files can be tampered with without approval by the OS. The OS doesn't block programs from tampering with system files

The registry. If the registry is destoryed, the OS doesn't boot. The registry can go corrupt very easily.

Audio, video and other hardware services can be accessed directly by the kernel. If your video card drivers crash, so does your OS. That is because the drivers have direct access to the kernel. Same with your sound.

I can list more if ya want me to.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod

Originally posted by: bsobel

Instead of Microsoft making their OS virus-proof. They simply release an anti-malware suite to remedy the problem. That's just as bad as a car dealer selling you a car and then saying, "Oh, and since our car is known to have X issue, you'll need to buy these X items here to repair them."

Any sufficently open operating system will have the issue of people writing malicious code for it and exploiting that openness. By your horrible car example, it's if you say since you can run your car into a tree and destroy it, you must not sell cars.

And again, what is your security qualifications to be making such a comment?

I did say I wouldn't talk to you any more, but I like debating

Your claim isn't true. Apache is open source and IIS is closed source. IIS is targeted more than Apache and Apache is used on majority of the web servers out there.

Linux is open source and OS 10's source code is out there, yet there aren't as many exploits.

Just because the source is out there, doesn't make it more vulnerable.

If you run a car into a tree, then that is YOUR fault, and not the dealer's

Enough with the generalizations. We need specifics. Until you can provide them, you are talking out of your ass. You're the expert here, right?

 

[Quinton McLeod]

Originally posted by: bsobel

No, it is NOT impossible. Microsoft doesn't yield to the security experts when they are told not to program something a certain way. The end result leads to security exploits and more viruses that utilize those exploits.

Specific examples please. I can't wait to see what you consider a security expert, and what they've told MS to do that they haven't.

And generally speaking, viri don't exploit exploits. But I wouldn't expect you to get your terminology write since you have no idea what your talking about.

Bill

p.s. We still want to see that security resume of yours....

Several viruses take advantage of Windows exploits. A real famous one is the MSBlaster virus.

 

[Slackware]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Instead of Microsoft making their OS virus-proof. They simply release an anti-malware suite to remedy the problem. That's just as bad as a car dealer selling you a car and then saying, "Oh, and since our car is known to have X issue, you'll need to buy these X items here to repair them."

Any sufficently open operating system will have the issue of people writing malicious code for it and exploiting that openness. By your horrible car example, it's if you say since you can run your car into a tree and destroy it, you must not sell cars.

And again, what is your security qualifications to be making such a comment?

I promised myself i wouldn't start bickering about this again but seriously man, you do realize that all that code is open to each and everone of thousands of devs and exploits have been found sooner for NO other operating system than the open ones.

Open source programming ensures QC and safety like no other programming model regardless of what you might thing there is enough evidence to back that up to make it a fact.

That is NOT to say that running W2K3 server is an unsafe practice, as many apache admins have shown the actual reporting of bugs and exploits does not always alarm the admin responsible for fixing it.

The best practice is to have a good admin, or for home machines, a good user.

A user that doesn't always just click accept because they learn to do just that.

 

[bsobel]

Just because the source is out there, doesn't make it more vulnerable.

You completely misunderstood me. By open operating system I mean extensible (as in you can control what runs on the OS, not the OS itself. As examples Linux, Solaris, Windows are open operating systems. The code running on my dishnetwork box (even being a linux derrivative) is a closed system.

If you run a car into a tree, then that is YOUR fault, and not the dealer's

Exactly, and if you choose to run malicious code on your system, it can't be MS's fault. Althougth your claiming it is and they should make their system malicious code proof.

Still waiting on that resume? Wondering if I'm gonna get it while your still able to post here....

 

[BD2003]

Windows XP:
Everyone is set as Administrator. When infected by a virus, the virus has admin rights to the machine.

Fixed in Vista - UAC.

Browser is integrated with the kernel. When there is an exploit in the browser, it immediately turns into a critical exploits because the entire system is in jeopardy.

IE7 runs in a protected mode, away from the kernel.

System files can be tampered with without approval by the OS. The OS doesn't block programs from tampering with system files.

Not entirely true - WFP will throw a fit whenever a system file has been modified. System restore also keeps a good copy of system files just in case.

The registry. If the registry is destoryed, the OS doesn't boot. The registry can go corrupt very easily.

The last known working registry is automatically backed up, and you can easily choose it on boot. System restore is a second layer of protection.

Audio, video and other hardware services can be accessed directly by the kernel. If your video card drivers crash, so does your OS. That is because the drivers have direct access to the kernel. Same with your sound.

Sound is now completely out of the kernel. All drivers for x64 must be signed, and x86 vista and XP will warn you if you try and do a silly thing like installing an unsigned, unverified driver.

I can list more if ya want me to.

You're apparently going to have to, because all of yours have either already been addressed, or aren't security holes.

 

[bsobel]

I promised myself i wouldn't start bickering about this again but seriously man, you do realize that all that code is open to each and everone of thousands of devs and exploits have been found sooner for NO other operating system than the open ones.

Slackware, by open I mean extensible, not open source. Sorry for any confusion.

Bill

 

[Slackware]

So this mysterious OS 10, is there an actual follow up to OS 9?

Unless he's talking about OSX10.x

I preferred not to use it on my PowerBook. At all.

See, that is closed source code mixed with open source, kinda nifty but not all that, and when i tried to get stuff like avidemux or blender... well that just won't work, not even the FreeBSD ports will work right.

So i installed Slackware.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Slackware
So this mysterious OS 10, is there an actual follow up to OS 9?

Unless he's talking about OSX10.x

I preferred not to use it on my PowerBook. At all.

See, that is closed source code mixed with open source, kinda nifty but not all that, and when i tried to get stuff like avidemux or blender... well that just won't work, not even the FreeBSD ports will work right.

So i installed Slackware.

OS 10 = OS X.

I personally think it's a usability abomination, but thats just one man's opinion. I cringe whenever I forced to use a mac, especially a laptop. One button?!?!

 

[bsobel]

But I wouldn't expect you to get your terminology write since you have no idea what your talking about.

Several viruses take advantage of Windows exploits. A real famous one is the MSBlaster virus.

Blaster is a worm, not a virus. But thank you for proving my terminology point.

Browser is integrated with the kernel. When there is an exploit in the browser, it immediately turns into a critical exploits because the entire system is in jeopardy.

You posted a bunch of FUD and a bunch of things which are fixed or improved in Vista (remember, you said MS wouldn't listen to security experts, yet they've fixed some of the legitimate issues you raised. Funny how your still wrong). But this one I need to touch on, care to explain exactly HOW the browser is intergrated with the kernel. Because this statement is completely wrong and false.

 

[Slackware]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Windows XP:
Everyone is set as Administrator. When infected by a virus, the virus has admin rights to the machine.

Fixed in Vista - UAC.

Browser is integrated with the kernel. When there is an exploit in the browser, it immediately turns into a critical exploits because the entire system is in jeopardy.

IE7 runs in a protected mode, away from the kernel.

System files can be tampered with without approval by the OS. The OS doesn't block programs from tampering with system files.

Not entirely true - WFP will throw a fit whenever a system file has been modified. System restore also keeps a good copy of system files just in case.

The registry. If the registry is destoryed, the OS doesn't boot. The registry can go corrupt very easily.

The last known working registry is automatically backed up, and you can easily choose it on boot. System restore is a second layer of protection.

Audio, video and other hardware services can be accessed directly by the kernel. If your video card drivers crash, so does your OS. That is because the drivers have direct access to the kernel. Same with your sound.

Sound is now completely out of the kernel. All drivers for x64 must be signed, and x86 vista and XP will warn you if you try and do a silly thing like installing an unsigned, unverified driver.

I can list more if ya want me to.

You're apparently going to have to, because all of yours have either already been addressed, or aren't security holes.

Except it is NOT fixed in Vista, the user gets used to click accept and in a week you can get him to click accept to a popup that says "remove your balls right now with a blowtorch" without any problem.

Protected mode does not really help either, neither does the offload of the drivers into userspace, moving the problem won't make it go away.

OTOH, i could probably make a description for a linux noob that involved cd / && rm -rf

In a long line of other commands, they are used to copying and pasting, or stick it in a script that made that a cron job, wonder how many machines i could hit in three months, 1000, 100000? Probably, maybe more.

the point is that most users are idiots and will click accept or copy and paste anything, they have no idea what they are doing anyway.

 

[Slackware]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: Slackware
So this mysterious OS 10, is there an actual follow up to OS 9?

Unless he's talking about OSX10.x

I preferred not to use it on my PowerBook. At all.

See, that is closed source code mixed with open source, kinda nifty but not all that, and when i tried to get stuff like avidemux or blender... well that just won't work, not even the FreeBSD ports will work right.

So i installed Slackware.

OS 10 = OS X.

I personally think it's a usability abomination, but thats just one man's opinion. I cringe whenever I forced to use a mac, especially a laptop. One button?!?!

That makes no sense, if 10= roman number X then OSX.4 would be the current version?

Most people who like it like it for it's usability, for that, it's not bad, way better than that abomination they call gnome, not only is it hell alone to compile but to use it is even worse.

And that is my opinion (no hard feelings GNOME users).

 

[BD2003]

Except it is NOT fixed in Vista, the user gets used to click accept and in a week you can get him to click accept to a popup that says "remove your balls right now with a blowtorch" without any problem.

Protected mode does not really help either, neither does the offload of the drivers into userspace, moving the problem won't make it go away.

OTOH, i could probably make a description for a linux noob that involved cd / && rm -rf

In a long line of other commands, they are used to copying and pasting, or stick it in a script that made that a cron job, wonder how many machines i could hit in three months, 1000, 100000? Probably, maybe more.

the point is that most users are idiots and will click accept or copy and paste anything, they have no idea what they are doing anyway.

Well, thats the problem with UAC - the average linux user is likely to be more savvy than windows users. A linux user would tend to know WHY they're entering the password/clicking the prompt. And there's nothing MS can do about idiot users. But regardless, MS did what they could. I agree that its so intrusive and commonplace that it has the net effect of crying wolf.

And I'm personally not a fan of IE7, I use opera. MS certainly did program IE too deeply into the core of windows, and now that it's standard and expected, it's not quite so easy to dig it out. Protected mode is pretty much the best they can do without breaking apps that rely on the core OS browser functionality. That functionality does have it's uses, and although I know how to avoid a virus, most people apparently do not, and the benefit is far outweighed by the disadvantages.

As far as drivers go - thats a problem with the manufacturers that write the drivers, not MS. I've personally only had recent driver problems with creative cards, but then again, I've never NOT had a problem with creative cards, no matter the OS.

 

[stash]

Except it is NOT fixed in Vista, the user gets used to click accept and in a week you can get him to click accept to a popup that says "remove your balls right now with a blowtorch" without any problem.

How would you solve this problem?

Protected mode does not really help either

I'm not sure you understand how protected mode works...read up on integrity levels.

neither does the offload of the drivers into userspace, moving the problem won't make it go away.

?

 

[stash]

Open source programming ensures QC and safety like no other programming model regardless of what you might thing there is enough evidence to back that up to make it a fact

Oh please, not this canard again. The many eyes theory is crap, and has been debunked repeatedly by basically all fair observers of software development.

 

[Slackware]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Except it is NOT fixed in Vista, the user gets used to click accept and in a week you can get him to click accept to a popup that says "remove your balls right now with a blowtorch" without any problem.

Protected mode does not really help either, neither does the offload of the drivers into userspace, moving the problem won't make it go away.

OTOH, i could probably make a description for a linux noob that involved cd / && rm -rf

In a long line of other commands, they are used to copying and pasting, or stick it in a script that made that a cron job, wonder how many machines i could hit in three months, 1000, 100000? Probably, maybe more.

the point is that most users are idiots and will click accept or copy and paste anything, they have no idea what they are doing anyway.

Well, thats the problem with UAC - the average linux user is likely to be more savvy than windows users. A linux user would tend to know WHY they're entering the password/clicking the prompt. And there's nothing MS can do about idiot users. But regardless, MS did what they could. I agree that its so intrusive and commonplace that it has the net effect of crying wolf.

And I'm personally not a fan of IE7, I use opera. MS certainly did program IE too deeply into the core of windows, and now that it's standard and expected, it's not quite so easy to dig it out. Protected mode is pretty much the best they can do without breaking apps that rely on the core OS browser functionality. That functionality does have it's uses, and although I know how to avoid a virus, most people apparently do not, and the benefit is far outweighed by the disadvantages.

As far as drivers go - thats a problem with the manufacturers that write the drivers, not MS. I've personally only had recent driver problems with creative cards, but then again, I've never NOT had a problem with creative cards, no matter the OS.

And you don't have to enter your password as the only user on your computer, the way it will be in most cases is that the user enters the admin password and his user password and then he runs on the default, which is his user accoundt with admin rights by clicking accept.

They removed IE for EU, so obviously it can be done.

Take note, i am NOT bashing MS, if you noted my response, i bashed common linux practices by most new users harder than i did MS noob practices.

 

[Nothinman]

Audio, video and other hardware services can be accessed directly by the kernel. If your video card drivers crash, so does your OS. That is because the drivers have direct access to the kernel. Same with your sound.

Just like in any other system, the kernel is there to arbitrate access to the hardware so it needs access to it. Hell on Linux I can run 'cat /dev/urandom > /dev/mem' and overwrite all of my system memory, does that mean the kernel shouldn't have access to my memory? Have you used the nVidia drivers on Linux? They're no more stable than the Windows drivers and can oops the kernel just like any other module, same with sound on Linux.

Browser is integrated with the kernel. When there is an exploit in the browser, it immediately turns into a critical exploits because the entire system is in jeopardy.

IE was never integrated with the kernel. MSHTML is depended upon by a lot of the shell and other parts of Windows, but it's nowhere near the kernel.

In a long line of other commands, they are used to copying and pasting, or stick it in a script that made that a cron job, wonder how many machines i could hit in three months, 1000, 100000? Probably, maybe more.

Within the last 3 months or so someone noticed that their apt repo had been added to some list of "must have repos" on the Ubuntu forums. He didn't like this cause it caused his bandwidth usage to skyrocket so he replaced one of his packages with one that replaced the user's wallpaper with a scary warning and disabled the user's ability to change their wallpaper. People are too trusting no matter what software is being used.

neither does the offload of the drivers into userspace, moving the problem won't make it go away.

So essentially the only way to fix everyone's computer is to disable all of the software and turn it into an electric heater?

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Slackware

Originally posted by: BD2003

Except it is NOT fixed in Vista, the user gets used to click accept and in a week you can get him to click accept to a popup that says "remove your balls right now with a blowtorch" without any problem.

Protected mode does not really help either, neither does the offload of the drivers into userspace, moving the problem won't make it go away.

OTOH, i could probably make a description for a linux noob that involved cd / && rm -rf

In a long line of other commands, they are used to copying and pasting, or stick it in a script that made that a cron job, wonder how many machines i could hit in three months, 1000, 100000? Probably, maybe more.

the point is that most users are idiots and will click accept or copy and paste anything, they have no idea what they are doing anyway.

Well, thats the problem with UAC - the average linux user is likely to be more savvy than windows users. A linux user would tend to know WHY they're entering the password/clicking the prompt. And there's nothing MS can do about idiot users. But regardless, MS did what they could. I agree that its so intrusive and commonplace that it has the net effect of crying wolf.

And I'm personally not a fan of IE7, I use opera. MS certainly did program IE too deeply into the core of windows, and now that it's standard and expected, it's not quite so easy to dig it out. Protected mode is pretty much the best they can do without breaking apps that rely on the core OS browser functionality. That functionality does have it's uses, and although I know how to avoid a virus, most people apparently do not, and the benefit is far outweighed by the disadvantages.

As far as drivers go - thats a problem with the manufacturers that write the drivers, not MS. I've personally only had recent driver problems with creative cards, but then again, I've never NOT had a problem with creative cards, no matter the OS.

And you don't have to enter your password as the only user on your computer, the way it will be in most cases is that the user enters the admin password and his user password and then he runs on the default, which is his user accoundt with admin rights by clicking accept.

They removed IE for EU, so obviously it can be done.

Take note, i am NOT bashing MS, if you noted my response, i bashed common linux practices by most new users harder than i did MS noob practices.

True. Entering the password every time would only be for non-admins. I personally think they're just trying to soften the blow and ease users into the whole "Don't always run as admin" thing. Unfortunately, they're forced to cater to the general idiot user, and there's no feasible way around that. But thats an issue of general population security.

As far as your own personal security goes, you have every right to run yourself as a general user and input that password. So while you can say UAC is a joke and won't solve security problems for most windows users, it can certainly solve some of your own, and thats the real issue at hand.

Although I have heard rumors that the next major windows release will break compatibility with ALL current apps. After 20 years, it's about time to start fresh - hopefully they can make some huge, much needed changes without having to worry about legacy apps.

 

[Slackware]

Originally posted by: stash

Open source programming ensures QC and safety like no other programming model regardless of what you might thing there is enough evidence to back that up to make it a fact

Oh please, not this canard again. The many eyes theory is crap, and has been debunked repeatedly by basically all fair observers of software development.

By all observers with vested inerest in discarding it you mean?

It's kinda strange that the only real module with regards to the linux kernel that has had a serious security problem for the last seven years is a BINARY CLOSED SOURCE MODULE, wouldn't you say?

No, of course you wouldn't, because according to the refutal, that is impossible, completely and utterly impossible, yet it is a fact

 

[Quinton McLeod]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Windows XP:
Everyone is set as Administrator. When infected by a virus, the virus has admin rights to the machine.

Fixed in Vista - UAC.

Browser is integrated with the kernel. When there is an exploit in the browser, it immediately turns into a critical exploits because the entire system is in jeopardy.

IE7 runs in a protected mode, away from the kernel.

System files can be tampered with without approval by the OS. The OS doesn't block programs from tampering with system files.

Not entirely true - WFP will throw a fit whenever a system file has been modified. System restore also keeps a good copy of system files just in case.

The registry. If the registry is destoryed, the OS doesn't boot. The registry can go corrupt very easily.

The last known working registry is automatically backed up, and you can easily choose it on boot. System restore is a second layer of protection.

Audio, video and other hardware services can be accessed directly by the kernel. If your video card drivers crash, so does your OS. That is because the drivers have direct access to the kernel. Same with your sound.

Sound is now completely out of the kernel. All drivers for x64 must be signed, and x86 vista and XP will warn you if you try and do a silly thing like installing an unsigned, unverified driver.

I can list more if ya want me to.

You're apparently going to have to, because all of yours have either already been addressed, or aren't security holes.

I was talking about Windows XP. I even stated it. Go ahead and look at my post

As far as Vista is concerned, Microsoft did change a few things after security experts nagged about it for YEARS. However, they only implemented half of the fixes. Vista still has major issues.

For example: Microsoft is still integrating features directly in the kernel. WDDM and DRM controls. These things should NOT be in the kernel layer. These things can be done outside the kernel.