Word Perfect on 4K

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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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100% accurate, no (technically I'm emulating a portion of a display that's 75% of 4k). But I'm pretty sure it answers the question adequately of "does WP look like it is capable of scaling sufficiently and properly to be usable on a 4k display running at its native resolution", unless someone wants to put forward a substantial argument to the contrary or flat-out prove me wrong by trying WP X9 on a 4k display running at native resolution and producing results utterly different to what I've found. We can compare results with screenshots.

What I'm about to say is not a developer's insight who has studied the APIs and written my own apps with those APIs, but as a techie who has used the various scaling features that Windows has made available over the years:

When Win10 has the scaling option enabled (ie. beyond 100%), it is asking programs to show their UI elements a bit bigger, that's all that's going on (ignoring the OS UI for the purpose of this discussion). If the program has a standard menu bar, it's using standard UI elements provided by libraries designed by Microsoft. So for example in WP X9 the text menu bar is using those elements as the menu bar scales correctly. However, what it's using for its toolbars (with options such as bold, italic and underline) is either using massively out-of-date libraries (e.g. win32 api libraries from the days of Win9x) or WP's own custom libraries, then chances are those libraries don't support the functions required to respond correctly to Windows's request that the program scales the content beyond 100%, therefore teeny-tiny buttons.

Also, if WP X9 fails such a basic 'at a glance' test then it basically proves that the developers haven't bothered to test it in such circumstances and therefore there are probably going to be more gremlins beneath the surface such as what happens if the user inserts an image on to the page, are the UI elements that allow the user to manipulate that image going to scale correctly, or as I've already suggested, other UI elements such as multiple-choice message boxes (e.g. "do you want to save this document before closing Y/N" may not be rendered correctly, so for example the text of the message box ought to be able to wrap to the size of the box but doesn't, or one of the buttons is half-cut-off by the end of the message because because its position and size was static while the size of the message box was dynamic.
 

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
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I have to say Windows Store apps are the only ones that can scale perfectly because it's always full screen.

None of the Windows Desktop applications can scale.

You can only scale by adjusting Windows 10 PC Settings, System, Display, Scale and Layout, Change the size of text, apps and other items. from 100% to 175%, but it affect all programs.

That scaling is achieved by graphics card, not by program itself. Expecting a specific desktop program to scale itself is just not possible.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
19,971
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I've thought of one way I could be wrong about my "poor man's test":

I have no idea about the physical size of the 4k display. I'm pretty sure I've seen a 4k display that was maybe 12 - 13" diagonally, at which point the number of pixel density has to be very high compared to say a 4k display that measures say 65" diagonally. With 100% scaling on both displays, the 65" display is going to be a lot easier to read say a 12pt font at 100% zoom than the 13" display.

Therefore my "poor man's test" is only relevant on a reasonably similar physical screen size to my own (21.5"), so therefore so content scaling would have to occur, though I can hardly imagine anyone wanting to do word processing on say a 65" screen.

Side note: The guy I knew who had that small 4k display had screen scaling set to 200%. I once encountered an app that refused to scale at all and the text was so small that I'm pretty sure I would have had headaches if I had to use it for a period of time (luckily it was just an offer that an app put on the screen to try and get me to sign up to a subscription).

I think it's safe to assume that most users needing a 4k monitor to sit within a metre of are going to go with a monitor that's less than 30 inches in size, so therefore some level of content scaling is likely to be required. WP X9 is probably manageable if the scaling is set to 125% or thereabouts (ie. any deficiencies in its design leading to an incorrect scaling implementation are likely to be manageable), but 150% and beyond is likely to be problematic.

One significant variable in this is the user and how good their eyesight is: On a similar display to my own, my dad requires 150% scaling, whereas I'm fine with 100%.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
19,971
14,282
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I have to say only Windows Store apps are the only ones that can scale perfectly because it's always full screen.

None of the Windows Desktop applications can scale.

You can only scale by adjusting Windows 10 PC Settings, System, Display, Scale and Layout, Change the size of text, apps and other items. from 100% to 175%, but it affect all programs.

That scaling is achieved by graphics card, not by program itself. Expecting a specific desktop program to scale itself is just not possible.

The logic of your post is not internally consistent, nor does it jibe with my experience. Take the demo of WordPerfect X9 as an example yourself with content scaling enabled, then compare to say LibreOffice 6x. There are clear differences in how they look, and clearly have nothing to do with the graphics card (otherwise there would be similar issues). There are plenty of non Store apps that scale in a far superior manner than say WP X9 (Firefox and Chrome for example), I'm not going to say "perfectly" because that would require a level of experience with a number of apps at all manner of resolutions that I simply don't have.

Store apps are more likely to scale better because they're likely to be using far newer APIs that are far better suited to today's possible environments (and basically impossible to be using say a decade-old UI-relating API), but I highly doubt that any reputable developer would sign off on say perfect 8k support without testing their app with it first, even if the referenced APIs claim to support it perfectly. Traditional Windows applications are somewhat more likely to have legacy luggage predating today's possible environments and so therefore are more likely to have problems with UI scaling.
 

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
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Found this High DPI Desktop Application Development on Windows doc.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...pi-desktop-application-development-on-windows

Yes, Firefox and Chrome does scale perfectly, in the so called client area, however, but not the menu icons area.

OK, I have to admit I'm not expert on this topic even though I developed Windows applications long, long time ago.

There is
Per-Monitor and Per-Monitor (V2) DPI Awareness
that developer can use. It seems that if the developer wrote a program that's PMv2 aware, then let's say you have a laptop with 1080p resolution and have an external monitor that's 4K resolution, if you move the application from laptop screen to 4K external display, then it will scale perfectly.

Anyway, I'm not expert. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
 
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mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
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aviwil

Senior member
Mar 23, 2000
285
0
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Thanks mxnerd - well done - looks good - I'm wading my way through it .
You checked on another display and works ?
This will work for any Win Version , do you think ?
I've always been wary of Register changes - this looks something minimal here ?
 

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
1,103
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Thanks mxnerd - well done - looks good - I'm wading my way through it .
You checked on another display and works ?
This will work for any Win Version , do you think ?
I've always been wary of Register changes - this looks something minimal here ?

Like I said, I don't have 4K display to verify.

And no, I don't think it works on any version of Windows, you have to have latest Windows 10.

And yes, the registry modification is minimal.
 

aviwil

Senior member
Mar 23, 2000
285
0
76
OK mxnerd - yes I saw what you said , but next line says "Verified it works" - thought this may be you .
With your permission , I'll post that on WpUniverse .
 

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
1,103
126
OK mxnerd - yes I saw what you said , but next line says "Verified it works" - thought this may be you .
With your permission , I'll post that on WpUniverse .
I'm not the one who uploaded those Youtube videos in 2017 using their own 4K displays.

Yes, of course you can post it on WpUniverse.
 

aviwil

Senior member
Mar 23, 2000
285
0
76
OK mxnerd - I understand that verified , refers to the Youtube's .
Thanks again .
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
19,971
14,282
136
Maybe the following method can solve the scaling issue per application?

You have to create manifest file to go along with application and modify Windows registry

https://community.spiceworks.com/how_to/137758-4k-dpi-scaling-issues-solved

I don't have 4K display to test.

==

Verified. It works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M_7OQNM4CIIt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMgUL1hqpec

I wonder why on earth there has to be a registry setting to say "pay attention to that manifest file"... any amount of time spent looking at Process Monitor output will show that those manifest files are routinely referenced, yet for some reason not paid attention to unless Windows is forced to? Bizarre.
 

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
1,103
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I wonder why on earth there has to be a registry setting to say "pay attention to that manifest file"... any amount of time spent looking at Process Monitor output will show that those manifest files are routinely referenced, yet for some reason not paid attention to unless Windows is forced to? Bizarre.
The problem is that the registry entry PreferExternalManifest does not even exist.

So even if a program does query the registry entry, it will not get a value at all. And the program probably will not reference manifest file even if it exists.

What I see from Process Monitor is application is querying the registry entry, not the manifest file.
 
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mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
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