World Cries

[piasabird]

After defeating Japan people in the USA sent gifts to the Japanese and other war-torn areas like Germany. After receiving packages of crayons and pencils, one school sent some of their hope for the future drawings back to the church where they received the supplies from. It sat in their archives till now. It was restored and sent back to Japan to be put on display.

http://www.voanews.com/media/video/drawings-children-hiroshima-hope-peace/3346645.html

I like this story a lot. However, to truly understand World War II it might be helpful to visit a cemetery in Europe like the one in Anzio, Italy where there is nothing but polished white tombstones for as far as the eye can see. Millions of people lost their lives and people can still not understand why we bombed Japan. People were tired of sending their sons to die. It is that simple.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/70511/BEACH HEAD WAR CEMETERY, ANZIO

We ask only for a place to bury our dead.

 

[werepossum]

After defeating Japan people in the USA sent gifts to the Japanese and other war-torn areas like Germany. After receiving packages of crayons and pencils, one school sent some of their hope for the future drawings back to the church where they received the supplies from. It sat in their archives till now. It was restored and sent back to Japan to be put on display.

http://www.voanews.com/media/video/drawings-children-hiroshima-hope-peace/3346645.html

I like this story a lot. However, to truly understand World War II it might be helpful to visit a cemetery in Europe like the one in Anzio, Italy where there is nothing but polished white tombstones for as far as the eye can see. Millions of people lost their lives and people can still not understand why we bombed Japan. People were tired of sending their sons to die. It is that simple.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/70511/BEACH HEAD WAR CEMETERY, ANZIO

We ask only for a place to bury our dead.

Well said.

 

[pcgeek11]

Excellent post and well put. Thanks.

 

[swamplizard]

Greetings,

A horrific end to a horrific war. I served with many who had fought in that war and none will ever say that the use of the atomic bomb was not justified. Sadly, my soul grieves for all that lost their lives throughout the war. Hopefully, man has learned and evolved past murder on such a grand scale as Germany and Japan.

But, look at post war China and the USSR, Cambodia and Iraq and we still see murder and genocide. When will man ever learn to walk upright?

 

[Darwin333]

I read something the other day that our number one target in Japan was the place that the Emperor lived (Kyoto?) but was vetoed by the minister of war because he honeymooned there. The crazy thing is that the military didn't want to end the war and even tried to kill the Emperor to prevent him from ending the war. So basically if we had gone ahead with our original targets the bombs would not have brought an end to the war because the military would have been in charge after we nuked the Emperor.

Crazy how some things work out due to sheer coincidence, if one specific dude hadn't honeymooned in a specific city the war could have dragged on much longer completely negating the reason we were dropping the bombs or we would have been forced to drop more bombs or some combination of the two.

 

[Greenman]

I read something the other day that our number one target in Japan was the place that the Emperor lived (Kyoto?) but was vetoed by the minister of war because he honeymooned there. The crazy thing is that the military didn't want to end the war and even tried to kill the Emperor to prevent him from ending the war. So basically if we had gone ahead with our original targets the bombs would not have brought an end to the war because the military would have been in charge after we nuked the Emperor.

Crazy how some things work out due to sheer coincidence, if one specific dude hadn't honeymooned in a specific city the war could have dragged on much longer completely negating the reason we were dropping the bombs or we would have been forced to drop more bombs or some combination of the two.

Interesting story, pretty good movie plot, but it seems extremely unlikely to me.

 

[FerrelGeek]

My dad was a Marine and fought on Tinian and Saipan. He was also in Nagasaki 3 months after the bomb was dropped. He was fully convinced that dropping the bombs was the only way to end the war. Before he got to Nagasaki, he was part of a patrol duty in Japan. One day, their platoon leader pointed out a beach and told the guys that if the war hadn't ended, that that beach would've been their landing target for an invasion. Conservative (no political pun intended) were that far more lives would've been lost (on both sides) if an invasion would've been necessary. My dad survived 2 beach invasions and friendly mortar fire. The odds wouldn't have been in his favor if it had come to an invasion.

It's also interesting that the island he helped liberate (Tinian) was the island where the Enola Gay took off to drop the bomb on Hiroshima.

Like others have said, I hope we learned our lesson and never have to use such drastic measures again.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

"We ask only for a place to bury our dead."

The actual inscription at the American cemetery on Normandy beach reads;
If ever proof were needed that we fought for a cause and not conquest, it could be found in these cemeteries. Here was our only conquest: All we asked was enough soil in which to bury our gallant dead.
General Mark w. Clark

http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries-memorials/europe/normandy-american-cemetery

 

[Moonbeam]

What we did was to convince ourselves that it was OK to murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians because they weren't members of the human race thereby forcing every American citizen to be a member of the only country on Earth to have used nuclear weapons against another country. And now we lie to ourselves by pretending what we did was something other than ignominious. One nation under God drops the atomic bomb on civilians and still manages to justify it, all because our egotism will admit to mo guilt. We never see what hypocrites we are.

 

[Blue_Max]

Reminds me of the less-positive but just as important project from ~10 years ago, The Hiroshima Pictures; where survivors drew/painted things they remembered from that fateful day - and many of the horrors experienced on the ground were totally unanticipated by the science of atomics.

One must remember, lest we repeat.

 

[realibrad]

What we did was to convince ourselves that it was OK to murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians because they weren't members of the human race thereby forcing every American citizen to be a member of the only country on Earth to have used nuclear weapons against another country. And now we lie to ourselves by pretending what we did was something other than ignominious. One nation under God drops the atomic bomb on civilians and still manages to justify it, all because our egotism will admit to mo guilt. We never see what hypocrites we are.

And yet that same god commanded people to fight and kill others in defense as well.

Also, make sure to ignore the horrific death toll the Japanese had racked up. Was there a better way to stop the Japanese from raping and murdering all over Asia?

 

[Subyman]

What we did was to convince ourselves that it was OK to murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians because they weren't members of the human race thereby forcing every American citizen to be a member of the only country on Earth to have used nuclear weapons against another country. And now we lie to ourselves by pretending what we did was something other than ignominious. One nation under God drops the atomic bomb on civilians and still manages to justify it, all because our egotism will admit to mo guilt. We never see what hypocrites we are.

Everyone is to blame for the atrocities. Some more than others, but that was an immensely dark time for humanity.

 

[Sonikku]

Me so sowy for cratering your city. :'( I know this doesn't completely make up for it, but have some crayons.

 

[Tormac]

What we did was to convince ourselves that it was OK to murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians because they weren't members of the human race thereby forcing every American citizen to be a member of the only country on Earth to have used nuclear weapons against another country. And now we lie to ourselves by pretending what we did was something other than ignominious. One nation under God drops the atomic bomb on civilians and still manages to justify it, all because our egotism will admit to mo guilt. We never see what hypocrites we are.

Hello Moonbeam,

I’m curious what you think a better response of the US military would be with the knowledge and logistics of the situation at the time. The Japanese Imperial Army showed no sign of agreeing to an unconditional surrender, and was still actively murdering Chinese, Koreans, and other civilians through Asia at the time. The Allies were largely exhausted, and wanted to end the war as quickly and painlessly as possible. It seems to me our options beside the A-bomb was to allow the Japanese to hold onto their empire, or continue fire-bombing their cities in preparation of a land invasion.

Allowing the Imperial Army to maintain control of Japan through the figurehead of the Emperor was not acceptable to us, and would sentence millions of Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians to live as slaves under the Japanese rule. Firebombing Japanese cities was in most measurable ways crueler than the A-bombs, resulting in hundreds of thousands of civilians burning alive, and rendering survivors homeless. And after we had firebombed the rest of their cites the Allies’ only choice would be a land invasion. I have read estimates that the predicted casualties of “Operation Downfall” was in the millions for Allied troops, and tens of millions for Japanese civilians. The Imperial Army showed every intention of pitting the Japanese civilian population against the Allied troops. (Indeed they attempted a coup against the Emperor to force him to take back his surrender).

What do you think would have been a better way to bring a resolution to WW2 and the Imperial Army’s dream of Empire?

It seems to me that while the use of Atomic weapons was regrettable, it was the cleanest, fastest, and most humane way to force a surrender.

 

[MajinCry]

And yet that same god commanded people to fight and kill others in defense as well.

Also, make sure to ignore the horrific death toll the Japanese had racked up. Was there a better way to stop the Japanese from raping and murdering all over Asia?

Would have been better if the Allies didn't start raping the Japanese once the country surrendered. The men raped our women, so we raped their women as payback. Urrrr.

Also pretty fucked up how the Allies (US in particular?) protected enemy scientists, that conducted horrific experiments and torture, after the war, in exchange for their research and manpower.

Evil all 'round.

 

[interchange]

We declare ourselves winners because another has lost.

And in deep hindsight, some of us cannot remember why we it was important to win, and yet even more wonder if, in fact, we were not winners at all -- merely second loser.

Perhaps someday we will focus on outrunning the bear instead of outrunning the other guy.

 

[Moonbeam]

Everyone is to blame for the atrocities. Some more than others, but that was an immensely dark time for humanity.

When else is ones humanity tested?

 

[Moonbeam]

Hello Moonbeam,

I’m curious what you think a better response of the US military would be with the knowledge and logistics of the situation at the time.

I think the answers will come easily to you if you start to think in terms of dropping nuclear weapons on your family. But know that I don't think there were actual alternatives because we are all sleeping killing machines. We do not have free will and we are not moral beings. We are marching zombies driven by ego need. Here and there a few people awaken. Dark times are our perennial state.

At the very least we could have warned the Japanese what we had and to evacuate their cities which we would destroy one by one with no information on order. And we could have dropped the first at a specific location in the sea so they could observe what was coming.

 

[Tormac]

I think the answers will come easily to you if you start to think in terms of dropping nuclear weapons on your family. But know that I don't think there were actual alternatives because we are all sleeping killing machines. We do not have free will and we are not moral beings. We are marching zombies driven by ego need. Here and there a few people awaken. Dark times are our perennial state.

At the very least we could have warned the Japanese what we had and to evacuate their cities which we would destroy one by one with no information on order. And we could have dropped the first at a specific location in the sea so they could observe what was coming.

I agree with the spirit of your post Moonbeam. The problem that I have with is I am imagining my family be enslaved by the Imperial Army (an activity that they were good at, and were still actively doing while the US had come in from the west and taken their islands away). Compared to the fate that the Imperial Army visited on the civilians of the nations that they conquered, death by A-bomb seems quick and easy.

I think many Westerners do not appreciate that anything that prolonged the War with the Imperial Army meant starvation, slavery, and death for all of the Asian nations that the Japanese still controlled.

The Atom bombs were shockingly terrible, but no worse that the firebombing that the USA’s Airforce had mastered, just more efficient. Once we as a species accepted total-war combined with massive bombing campaigns there is no place to hide for civilians.

The fact is the Atom bombs were demonstrably the most humane way to end a terrible, terrible war.

 

[Moonbeam]

The fact is the Atom bombs were demonstrably the most humane way to end a terrible, terrible war.

I didn't argue against its use, only the means by which it was used. If you were paying attention to what I said rather than how to defend your position, that would have been more obvious, I think. You believe what we did was morally justified; I do not. I believe that the hideous behavior of the Japanese war machine pulled us down to their level. We did not regard the Japanese as human beings, but worthless vile animals as many of them were. There was punishment intended, revenge.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

At the very least we could have warned the Japanese what we had and to evacuate their cities which we would destroy one by one with no information on order.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-leaflets/

And we could have dropped the first at a specific location in the sea so they could observe what was coming.

That simply would have not been possible.

 

[Subyman]

When else is ones humanity tested?

Survival seems to always trump morals.

 

[MongGrel]

Hello Moonbeam,

I’m curious what you think a better response of the US military would be with the knowledge and logistics of the situation at the time. The Japanese Imperial Army showed no sign of agreeing to an unconditional surrender, and was still actively murdering Chinese, Koreans, and other civilians through Asia at the time. The Allies were largely exhausted, and wanted to end the war as quickly and painlessly as possible. It seems to me our options beside the A-bomb was to allow the Japanese to hold onto their empire, or continue fire-bombing their cities in preparation of a land invasion.

Allowing the Imperial Army to maintain control of Japan through the figurehead of the Emperor was not acceptable to us, and would sentence millions of Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians to live as slaves under the Japanese rule. Firebombing Japanese cities was in most measurable ways crueler than the A-bombs, resulting in hundreds of thousands of civilians burning alive, and rendering survivors homeless. And after we had firebombed the rest of their cites the Allies’ only choice would be a land invasion. I have read estimates that the predicted casualties of “Operation Downfall” was in the millions for Allied troops, and tens of millions for Japanese civilians. The Imperial Army showed every intention of pitting the Japanese civilian population against the Allied troops. (Indeed they attempted a coup against the Emperor to force him to take back his surrender).

What do you think would have been a better way to bring a resolution to WW2 and the Imperial Army’s dream of Empire?

It seems to me that while the use of Atomic weapons was regrettable, it was the cleanest, fastest, and most humane way to force a surrender.

I'm going to agree with this response.

 

[Bart*Simpson]

What we did was to convince ourselves that it was OK to murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians because they weren't members of the human race thereby forcing every American citizen to be a member of the only country on Earth to have used nuclear weapons against another country. And now we lie to ourselves by pretending what we did was something other than ignominious. One nation under God drops the atomic bomb on civilians and still manages to justify it, all because our egotism will admit to mo guilt. We never see what hypocrites we are.

My father spent three years in a Japanese POW camp on Hokkaido and he died before we could get his military records and start to learn about what horrors he went through. I can't even begin to write about what he went through.

And while I like the Japanese for who they are now and I hold no animus towards them for the sins of their past I have no problem saying that if I were in Truman's place I wouldn't have stopped at just two bombs.

Oh, and GFY.

 

[Tormac]

I didn't argue against its use, only the means by which it was used. If you were paying attention to what I said rather than how to defend your position, that would have been more obvious, I think. You believe what we did was morally justified; I do not. I believe that the hideous behavior of the Japanese war machine pulled us down to their level. We did not regard the Japanese as human beings, but worthless vile animals as many of them were. There was punishment intended, revenge.

Hi Moonbeam,

I hope I don’t sound too contentious, as I really like most all of your posts, and you as a poster. I did not miss that you suggested that we use a demo of the bomb first, many have argued that we should have given the Japanese a demo of the a-bomb rather than use it against a city off the bat.

I do not think that it was reasonable for the time to use an a-bomb as a demo because we really did not have the resources to drop that many, even the plutonium bombs. In hind sight it also seems obvious that a demo would not have moved the Imperial Army, as we had to drop a second one, and even after that there was a coupe to force the Emperor to back out of his surrender. While this was going on the Imperial Army was still committing atrocities throughout Asia, particularly in China and Korea. Delay was causing more casualties, and more casualties was reinforcing the Imperial Army’s hope that they could put us through enough of a meat grinder that we would accept a conditional surrender from them that would allow them to stay in power.

I mentioned the firebombing of Tokyo particularly, because I believe that people have forgotten that we can achieve just a horrific a level of destruction through conventional means, it is just not as efficient. I see nothing extra immoral about when we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki in comparison with what we did to Tokyo.

I agree with you in some ways that the hideous behavior of the Imperial Army forced us to stoop to their level. But I don’t see a better way. To call the use of atomic weapons “murder” seems to me to be a corruption of the word. We were at war with an enemy that was happy to kill and enslave others, and was actively doing so. Attempting to force them to stop was not immoral. The bombs were the best option to force a quick end to the war. It likely saved tens of millions of human lives compared to what we would have done in Operation Downfall.