World Cries

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
31,212
12,745
136
moonbeam gets pwned again and again and again when he starts his mentally challenged trolling about things he knows nothing about.

he whines that 2 military targets were hit with atomic bombs because Japan refused to surrender.

he further thinks it would have been better that over a million casualties occur with a ground invasion rather than the 200,000 that actually did happen from dropping the 2 bombs.

I am surprised he isn't getting his knickers in a knot over the USAF refusal to bomb the railway tracks heading to Auschwitz back in 1944.
 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
4,669
266
126
I think this is the best post you've made on here. Very well said, sir! Thank you.

Whenever we look back at History and choose to Judge the people's actions from those times, I think we have to be mindful that we don't understand the context they were in. Dropping A-Bombs on cities is terrible, no doubt about it, and we should never do such a thing again, if we can help it. However, at that time so much destruction had occurred and people had been subjected to so much negative stresses the A-Bombs offered a way to bring it to an end quickly.

Not only that though, it was a way to prevent a new war between the Soviet Union and the "West". They were allies to defeat Germany and Japan, but were also diametrically opposed and enemies otherwise. Whether Stalin would have declared such a war or not is something we will never know, but from my Hollywood( iffy I know, but...) understanding of that scenario, some within the US certainly wanted to push into the Soviet Union. Dropping the A-Bombs sent a clear message of Military Superiority, albeit temporary superiority, that both sent a clear message to the Soviet Union, but also bolstered Morale in the US/West that war would not be inevitable with the Soviet Union.

I don't think anyone need be Ashamed that the A-bombs were dropped, but I also don't think being Proud about it is the right position either. I think it should be sobering, something to make us pause and reconsider before entering a state of war. As ugly as the A-Bombs are they have accomplished one thing good, they have made War between Equals obsolete. If we don't respect that, we will make ourselves obsolete.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Do you have a source on the bolded part? that sounds extremely unlikely

Japan, like Germany, had been working on them for a while. The issue at the end was not about knowing what to do, it was about resources. Japan went all around trying to find uranium. After Hitler killed himself, Germany sent over a sub with uranium. The US ended up capturing that sub. The huge amount of material being sent to Japan could only be used for 1 thing and that was a bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234

The US simply could not risk Japan stalling out and building a bomb.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,191
32,583
136
Japan, like Germany, had been working on them for a while. The issue at the end was not about knowing what to do, it was about resources. Japan went all around trying to find uranium. After Hitler killed himself, Germany sent over a sub with uranium. The US ended up capturing that sub. The huge amount of material being sent to Japan could only be used for 1 thing and that was a bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234

The US simply could not risk Japan stalling out and building a bomb.

Non-enriched uranium is to weapons production as sand is to silicon chip production, necessary but barely a start.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
As this article explains, there are *three* main schools of thought on the issue and this is something that any modern history prof who works on anything related to this would have told you.

You might want to look at this, looks like there's a decent bibliography as well so it will provide you with a starting place.

http://www.hamptoninstitution.org/hiroshima-historiography.html

God that was long. You could have done some summary work in your post.

The vast majority of historians listed are in agreement that the bombs were needed. There is a small group that make the argument that Russia declaring war on Japan was more important than the bombs the US dropped. Russia had an impact, but it was only part.

Japan was working on building a bomb. Germany was working on a bomb. The end of Germany meant that Japan knew it was next. They had stalled Russia for a while in Asia, but now that Germany was done Japan would be next. Russia wanted the areas around Russia for itself. Russia wanted resources.

Japan's expansion in WWII was mainly about resources. Being an Island nation meant that it did not have access to things like oil. Russia taking away those resources would have hurt, but Japan's position had changed from the start of the war. It was working on technologies that could have changed the game. One of those were its rocket planes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_J8M

This would have been very big. Japan with all the things it had been working on could have stalled out long enough to gets its bomb materials ready. Had that happened, the surrender would have been different. The US knew that Russia was going to be the problem in the future and a nuclear Japan and nuclear Russia would have been too much.

So no, my opinion has not changed. Japan knew that Russia would enter the war at some point. What they did not know was that the US would finish their bomb as quickly as it did.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Non-enriched uranium is to weapons production as sand is to silicon chip production, necessary but barely a start.

Not barely a start. Again, they had almost all of the technical know how. The issue was about getting enough of the resources to refine. The reason they wanted the shipment from Germany was so they could finish the bomb.

There was also a book written by Robert K. Wilcox that suggests that a test bomb was detonated in modern North Korea. We will never know if this actually happened because both the US and Japan destroyed as much as they could find about Japan's nuclear program.

When the US finished off Germany, they realized how close Germany was. Japan would also be very close. Again, the know how was pretty much done, it was just about resources.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,191
32,583
136
Not barely a start. Again, they had almost all of the technical know how. The issue was about getting enough of the resources to refine. The reason they wanted the shipment from Germany was so they could finish the bomb.

There was also a book written by Robert K. Wilcox that suggests that a test bomb was detonated in modern North Korea. We will never know if this actually happened because both the US and Japan destroyed as much as they could find about Japan's nuclear program.

When the US finished off Germany, they realized how close Germany was. Japan would also be very close. Again, the know how was pretty much done, it was just about resources.

Neither was very close. Neither had the remaining industrial capacity to pull off full scale enrichment. The scale of facilities needed to build atomic weapons is staggering.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Whenever we look back at History and choose to Judge the people's actions from those times, I think we have to be mindful that we don't understand the context they were in. Dropping A-Bombs on cities is terrible, no doubt about it, and we should never do such a thing again, if we can help it. However, at that time so much destruction had occurred and people had been subjected to so much negative stresses the A-Bombs offered a way to bring it to an end quickly.

Not only that though, it was a way to prevent a new war between the Soviet Union and the "West". They were allies to defeat Germany and Japan, but were also diametrically opposed and enemies otherwise. Whether Stalin would have declared such a war or not is something we will never know, but from my Hollywood( iffy I know, but...) understanding of that scenario, some within the US certainly wanted to push into the Soviet Union. Dropping the A-Bombs sent a clear message of Military Superiority, albeit temporary superiority, that both sent a clear message to the Soviet Union, but also bolstered Morale in the US/West that war would not be inevitable with the Soviet Union.

I don't think anyone need be Ashamed that the A-bombs were dropped, but I also don't think being Proud about it is the right position either. I think it should be sobering, something to make us pause and reconsider before entering a state of war. As ugly as the A-Bombs are they have accomplished one thing good, they have made War between Equals obsolete. If we don't respect that, we will make ourselves obsolete.

Very well said.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,271
6,637
126
Not barely a start. Again, they had almost all of the technical know how. The issue was about getting enough of the resources to refine. The reason they wanted the shipment from Germany was so they could finish the bomb.

There was also a book written by Robert K. Wilcox that suggests that a test bomb was detonated in modern North Korea. We will never know if this actually happened because both the US and Japan destroyed as much as they could find about Japan's nuclear program.

When the US finished off Germany, they realized how close Germany was. Japan would also be very close. Again, the know how was pretty much done, it was just about resources.

Hehehe, had here we have the amazing realbrad telling us which version of the historical and scholarly debate on the morality of the a-bomb is the correct version of history. Have you no shame? Let's just put it in simple reflective terms. I am right and you are wrong and I know it because I am the one who knows true history when I see it. History, my dear Sir, is what I believe it is, not what you believe it is because I believe what I believe and I as so fucking sure of myself and my whole ego validation and self worth depends on me being right. You, therefore can go fuck yourself in the ass while I stand firm here claiming as I do that there are historians who disagree that to use the A-bomb was the best moral choice. Are you listening, you deaf fucking idiot?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Hehehe, had here we have the amazing realbrad telling us which version of the historical and scholarly debate on the morality of the a-bomb is the correct version of history. Have you no shame? Let's just put it in simple reflective terms. I am right and you are wrong and I know it because I am the one who knows true history when I see it. History, my dear Sir, is what I believe it is, not what you believe it is because I believe what I believe and I as so fucking sure of myself and my whole ego validation and self worth depends on me being right. You, therefore can go fuck yourself in the ass while I stand firm here claiming as I do that there are historians who disagree that to use the A-bomb was the best moral choice. Are you listening, you deaf fucking idiot?

Not a good week for you eh?

The point you first tried to make was if it was OK to do what we as a nation did. I explained why dropping the bombs was on net a reduction in total death. I also pointed out that the god of the bible also worked with the same logic as he commanded others to kill people to protect themselves.

You then said that experts still debate the bombings. That is true just like there are people who debate global warming. On one side you have mountains of evidence, logic, and the vast majority of people educated in the field. The other side you have a handful of people who have research funded by companies that have a vested interest in global warming denial. Just saying that people debate something does not mean much.

You then shifted to saying that if we dont say evil is all around we risk becoming worse. So, even if there is not evil, we better say there is which I am sure would lead to great outcomes.

Then you said that many today think the bombings were a moral lapse. The many make up people who are not historians. The vast majority of historians that know about WWII agree that it should have been done.

I then asked you to provide some historians, and you post a wall of text about comments people made just after the war that did not know the status of Japan's development of a bomb. That was a weak response and I am sure you know it too.

So now here we are, where you have shifted the argument to me defending the morality of dropping the bombs and me having beliefs. I have supported my position, which is not a belief. I believe my position is correct, because of all the arguments and evidence I have seen. Until I have been given something that disproves what I currently believe, I have no reason to change. If you want to be all pissy and try to bait me, thats fine. You can choose to be like that or choose to not be like that. My guess is you are having a rough go and cant muster up enough decency to be civil as I have been with you. If that is the case, then I hope your life improves. Even though I disagree, I can still be mature and reasonable. Hopefully you can find your humanity and be like that as well.
 

Tormac

Senior member
Feb 3, 2011
258
56
101
The use of Atomic weapons was a terrible thing to have to contemplate.

It was only because of horrors of that war, the mass killings, genocide, rapes, and enslavement on the part of the Imperial Army, that I think that it is justifiable.

I can understand having second thoughts about using Atomic weapons, and it is the sign of people’s humanity that they still have second thoughts to this day, and certainly did then.

As to the notion that the Imperial Army was ready to surrender unconditionally that some people suggest, I have to ask why didn’t they do it? They did not surrender after the first Atomic bomb. There was an attempted coup d’etat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident) within the Imperial Army that was set to take power away from the ones who wanted to surrender after the second bomb drop to ensure that they did not surrender.

Using Atomic weapons is a terrible thing. It was only justifiable because of the terrible things that were occurring at that time. The Allies had a moral imperative to end the war as quickly and humanely as possible. The Japanese Imperial Army still held a lot of land throughout Asian, and was still committing horrible atrocities. I have read some posts here that leads me to believe that people do not appreciate the actions of the Japanese Imperial Army. The Japanese were actively starving, raping, and enslaving the other Asians.

It was not just that some Imperial Japanese soldiers were full of blood lust and killed and rapped a few civilians (a terrible thing that undoubtedly happened with everyone’s troops, also ours). Imperial Japan actively colonize Asian countries, deported and forced men into laboring for the Imperial Government, and forced women to work in brothels for the Imperial Army. I can’t think of a more accurate word for that than slavery. Again this is not something that a few soldiers did, but was the policy of the Imperial Government.

The Imperial Army’s policy was one of abuse, rape, torture, and slavery directed at indigenous populations. It is just a matter of fact.

Would these cruelties justify unleashing an Atomic holocaust on Japan in revenge? I think the answer is no. But it is important to understand that at the time when the USA used Atomic weapons against the Japanese the Imperial Army still held much of Asia, and was actively abusing the indigenous people. Blockading the home islands and starving Japan would have meant continued slavery, starvation and death for the subjects of the Imperial Army.

My grandfather fought in the European theater in WW2, and he has passed away. My wife’s grandfather fought against the Imperial Japanese Army in China. He has passed away. Most of the people who fought in WW2 on all sides have passed. There is no point in finger pointing.

But the Japanese democratic government has a history of minimizing and denying the atrocities that Imperial Japan committed against the people of Asia, continuing to modern times. I have no problem with the USA saying that it regrets the necessity of using the Atom bombs. It was horrific. But the notion that the democratic nations that fought in WW2 were the bad guys who should be condemned as murders is a mistake.

I occasionally hear of neo-Nazi groups that claim that Germany was the aggrieved party, and that the Allies overreacted and lied about what happened in Europe. In the USA it is rare to hear about Imperial Japanese supporters, although I understand that there are still a tiny amount of them in Japan.

Either way it seems like a serious mistake to claim that the democracies were the ones who murdered tens of thousands of innocent civilians because they weren't members of the human race. I can understand a little bit of metaphoric hyperbole, but that is a corruption of the words to a point where they have no meaning.

We have to keep an intact memory of the horrors of these events if we are to prevent such events in the future.
 
Last edited:

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,271
6,637
126
Not a good week for you eh?

The point you first tried to make was if it was OK to do what we as a nation did. I explained why dropping the bombs was on net a reduction in total death. I also pointed out that the god of the bible also worked with the same logic as he commanded others to kill people to protect themselves.

You then said that experts still debate the bombings. That is true just like there are people who debate global warming. On one side you have mountains of evidence, logic, and the vast majority of people educated in the field. The other side you have a handful of people who have research funded by companies that have a vested interest in global warming denial. Just saying that people debate something does not mean much.

You then shifted to saying that if we dont say evil is all around we risk becoming worse. So, even if there is not evil, we better say there is which I am sure would lead to great outcomes.

Then you said that many today think the bombings were a moral lapse. The many make up people who are not historians. The vast majority of historians that know about WWII agree that it should have been done.

I then asked you to provide some historians, and you post a wall of text about comments people made just after the war that did not know the status of Japan's development of a bomb. That was a weak response and I am sure you know it too.

So now here we are, where you have shifted the argument to me defending the morality of dropping the bombs and me having beliefs. I have supported my position, which is not a belief. I believe my position is correct, because of all the arguments and evidence I have seen. Until I have been given something that disproves what I currently believe, I have no reason to change. If you want to be all pissy and try to bait me, thats fine. You can choose to be like that or choose to not be like that. My guess is you are having a rough go and cant muster up enough decency to be civil as I have been with you. If that is the case, then I hope your life improves. Even though I disagree, I can still be mature and reasonable. Hopefully you can find your humanity and be like that as well.

Now there's my realbrad, modeling my description to a tee. You have painted the walls of your prison with blue paint and claim the world is blue. It must be wonderful to live in a world is which the evidence confirms your opinions and you get to pick the evidence.

There was a child that was to be born in Japan who would have brought light to a dying planet and saved the soul of billions but we vaporized his mother before he came to term. He died of moral justification and moral certainty.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Now there's my realbrad, modeling my description to a tee. You have painted the walls of your prison with blue paint and claim the world is blue. It must be wonderful to live in a world is which the evidence confirms your opinions and you get to pick the evidence.

There was a child that was to be born in Japan who would have brought light to a dying planet and saved the soul of billions but we vaporized his mother before he came to term. He died of moral justification and moral certainty.

Weird. There was also a child to be born in China that that would have brought happiness to the word, but was murdered by the Japanese. There was a woman in Korea who would have given birth to a child that solved all illness, but was captured and turned into a sex slave by the Japanese military.

Very sad. Perhaps its not me who is painting the world blue? Perhaps it is you seeing the color of truth is abhorrent to your ego, that forces you attack the painter. I know not what makes you hate those that the Japanese abused, but maybe one day you can find forgiveness for your own self hate which might then lead to you not hating the dead. A dreamer can dream right?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,271
6,637
126
Weird. There was also a child to be born in China that that would have brought happiness to the word, but was murdered by the Japanese. There was a woman in Korea who would have given birth to a child that solved all illness, but was captured and turned into a sex slave by the Japanese military.

Very sad. Perhaps its not me who is painting the world blue? Perhaps it is you seeing the color of truth is abhorrent to your ego, that forces you attack the painter. I know not what makes you hate those that the Japanese abused, but maybe one day you can find forgiveness for your own self hate which might then lead to you not hating the dead. A dreamer can dream right?

Now we can see the power of moral justification and moral certainty. You can even manufacture your own sadness like you manufacture imaginary victims, just as you did with all your other historical certainties. Yes, a dreamer can dream but it would be nice if you woke up some of the time.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,271
6,637
126
Information is a ah heck isn't it.

I thought you did a hell of a job by tastily cooking and seasoning his crow before showing it up his ass. I wish I knew what kind of salt you used because he came away from the experience think it was me who made a fool out of history. It was pretty funny. I also found out that things people said at the time as to why the bombing was not a mistake aren't really a part of history. That turned out great for me because now all the reasons people gave and still give justifying the bombing are simply the words of fools who had no idea what the real history was, that in fact the bombing was a terrible mistake, actually. Now I know that history is whatever I believe it is and whatever that is it has to be right because it makes sense to me and whatever makes sense makes sense because I say so.

I hope I'm not going in circles here.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
I thought you did a hell of a job by tastily cooking and seasoning his crow before showing it up his ass. I wish I knew what kind of salt you used because he came away from the experience think it was me who made a fool out of history. It was pretty funny. I also found out that things people said at the time as to why the bombing was not a mistake aren't really a part of history. That turned out great for me because now all the reasons people gave and still give justifying the bombing are simply the words of fools who had no idea what the real history was, that in fact the bombing was a terrible mistake, actually. Now I know that history is whatever I believe it is and whatever that is it has to be right because it makes sense to me and whatever makes sense makes sense because I say so.

I hope I'm not going in circles here.

Nope (although, sometimes circles are fun).

 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Information is a ah heck isn't it.

You could have given the names and pointed me to the important parts. I would bet that all you did was a quick google search, skim over it and present it to me as if it was meaningful.

I explained why it was not, but you did not just give information.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
You could have given the names and pointed me to the important parts. I would bet that all you did was a quick google search, skim over it and present it to me as if it was meaningful.

I explained why it was not, but you did not just give information.

I provided you with information. Do with it what you will.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
25,513
11,898
136
Neither was very close. Neither had the remaining industrial capacity to pull off full scale enrichment. The scale of facilities needed to build atomic weapons is staggering.

Think centrifuges. And lots of them.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Neither was very close. Neither had the remaining industrial capacity to pull off full scale enrichment. The scale of facilities needed to build atomic weapons is staggering.

You cant compare what Japan would have done to the US project. Japan did not need to produce as many or as quickly as we did. The Manhattan Project was set up to crank out bombs if needed. Japan only needed to stall out with a few to get a truce. The US was making bombs to win the war, Japan was looking to not lose the war.

Also, keep in mind there was more than one way to enrich. The US did not use only one method. Japan had already started enriching. With its military resources focused on enrichment instead of expansion, they may have come up with a way to get a bomb. A single bomb would have been a big deal.

Again, had Japan not been totally broken, the cold war would have been very different. Europe was ripped apart. That left Russia and the US. Had Japan been in the mix, things would have been far more complicated.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Japan invaded many countries and not just the USA island of Hawaii, that we stole from the natives there. I sometimes wonder why the USA was in possession of that island to begin with? Japan took over Korea and caused it to crumble to dust and be split up into two warring factions. Japan also invaded other areas in the south China Sea including mainland China where they fed candy laced with opium to children. Dont think of Japan as some kind of peace loving nation.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Japan invaded many countries and not just the USA island of Hawaii, that we stole from the natives there. I sometimes wonder why the USA was in possession of that island to begin with? Japan took over Korea and caused it to crumble to dust and be split up into two warring factions. Japan also invaded other areas in the south China Sea including mainland China where they fed candy laced with opium to children. Dont think of Japan as some kind of peace loving nation.

They did a lot worse than feed candy with opium to children. So did the US.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,470
15,439
146
You cant compare what Japan would have done to the US project. Japan did not need to produce as many or as quickly as we did. The Manhattan Project was set up to crank out bombs if needed. Japan only needed to stall out with a few to get a truce. The US was making bombs to win the war, Japan was looking to not lose the war.

Also, keep in mind there was more than one way to enrich. The US did not use only one method. Japan had already started enriching. With its military resources focused on enrichment instead of expansion, they may have come up with a way to get a bomb. A single bomb would have been a big deal.

Again, had Japan not been totally broken, the cold war would have been very different. Europe was ripped apart. That left Russia and the US. Had Japan been in the mix, things would have been far more complicated.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project
The entire Manhattan project was able to produce enough enriched U235 and plutonium for 4 bombs, (trinity, Fat Man, Little Boy, and one unused core). To generate that amount of material it took 1000s of tons of uranium 238.


In contrast the U-234 submarine only held 540KG of Uranium Dioxide, enough to synthesize maybe 20% of the fissile material needed for a bomb. If they had had the technology to do so. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234

The seperation techniques required years for the Manhattan project to work out. Each process was similar in requiring huge industrial facilities using large amounts of power. Japan had neither the time, the industrial capability, the infrastructure, the scientific manpower, nor the stocks of potential fissile material to create a bomb.

Japan had no chance of creating a bomb.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |