WoW question

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: torpid
Yeah I wasn't accounting for level. They all seem to be about 10-30.

Personally, I find shaman to be significantly more enjoyable than paladin. What is their role in end game instances though?

From what I've always seen, they typically take up a healing role and a support role with their totems. As for what totems, it depends on what party you're in (as in what classes you must support and their roles). I still think Paladins make better healers though... their holy talent (Illumination) to return all mana spent on a healing crit is just TOO GOOD. That's why you'll see holy Paladins try to stock up on some nice spell crit gear as it makes em mana machines.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
You can't forget that all mitigation has changed so heavily in BC. I saw this the hard way as I was tanking The Sunken Temple yesterday on my Rogue for my Shaman. At this point, my rogue's Dodge was killed by leveling (~30% down to ~20%) and my mitigation was dropped a decent amount (I believe ~25% to ~19%). I think I found out the hard way that mitigation also does not factor in level whatsoever as these elite mobs hit me as hard as they hit my same-level Shaman who was wearing a mix of cloth, leather and mail healing gear with a staff. I'm actually tempted to stop leveling my Shaman so I can level my Warrior+Priest combo up to 70 and I can use my Warrior instead. I watched my brother solo almost all of BRD on his warrior (he had some problems with Thaurissan.. understandable as you need a separate person for Mora), but I highly doubt I could do this, unless you count my ability to skip almost everyone. But even then, I'd have to blow a lot of cooldowns and my (talent-affected) abilities require me to get behind my opponents... not possible for bosses.

By far the biggest nerf for melee DPS was the change of +weaponskill.
A HUGE nerf to fury warriors and I'd suspect rogues aren't much better off.

 

[quikah]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
You can't forget that all mitigation has changed so heavily in BC. I saw this the hard way as I was tanking The Sunken Temple yesterday on my Rogue for my Shaman. At this point, my rogue's Dodge was killed by leveling (~30% down to ~20%) and my mitigation was dropped a decent amount (I believe ~25% to ~19%). I think I found out the hard way that mitigation also does not factor in level whatsoever as these elite mobs hit me as hard as they hit my same-level Shaman who was wearing a mix of cloth, leather and mail healing gear with a staff.

The % mitigation is based on the level of the mob hitting you, not your level. It doesn't matter if you are lvl 60 or 70, a lvl 50 mob is going have its damage reduced the same if your armor is the same.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas<img src...-happy.gif" border="0">amage_reductionamage_reduction

You were getting hit the same probably because your armor sucks, despite being lvl 70. I know that I am at about 2000 armor on my rogue at lvl 69, hasn't really changed much at all since 60, a top lvl 70 rogue on my server is at about 2800 armor.

Dodge was kind of messed up, but it should be partially offset by the lvl difference.

 

[quikah]

Arg, guess the forum doesn't like links with colons in them.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas<img src...-happy.gif" border="0">amage_reduction

 

[Aikouka]

I have about 2.5k armor (a nice 500 over you, sir ) and I still think when my Shaman (18 levels below me) takes nearly the same damage (I watched some of it today.. I took 200-ish vs his 280-ish) per hit with less armor (I think he had about 2100 armor)... I get 33% vs his 21%.

But even then, the calculations don't come out right. If my rogue was being hit for around 200 and my shaman around 280... .67x represents my rogue's mitigation amount and .79x represents my shaman's mitigation amount. 200/.67 != 280/.79 (or even come close to it).

Also, with this, I'm tempted to respec my rogue to make him more tank-ish as I don't feel like leveling my warrior to 70 just to do BRD runs for my Shaman .

I was thinking something like this ( http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZMxEz0VzxbooZxroo ). It looks kinda weird... but I wanted to keep Imp Sap, because I've been told of lucrative sneaky things that rogues can do in the (Edit: Heroic) Slave Pens using Imp Sap to sap a single elite and steal a chest . Unfortunately, I can't do that yet, because I don't have revered with Cenarion Refuge (only like 1000 off ).

Originally posted by: Sunner
By far the biggest nerf for melee DPS was the change of +weaponskill.
A HUGE nerf to fury warriors and I'd suspect rogues aren't much better off.

Well, I think this really hurt Human rogues the most to be honest. Their weapon skill racial was practically reduced to crap as you'd be max level and all it did was raise your crit rate against them a bit... whoop-de-doo. They had pretty decent DPS because all they needed was a tiny bit more +sword skill and they would receive almost no glancing attacks. Although, it also made the rogue talent Weapon Expertise absolute garbage.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: torpid
Yeah I wasn't accounting for level. They all seem to be about 10-30.

Personally, I find shaman to be significantly more enjoyable than paladin. What is their role in end game instances though?

In raid instances? Healing, buffs, and mana tide totem. You could conceivably do dps, but you'll never beat similarly equipped members of pure dps classes.

A friend of mine who has a Shammy does some really nice damage as enhancement, though he claims it is because WF is bugged

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: jman19
A friend of mine who has a Shammy does some really nice damage as enhancement, though he claims it is because WF is bugged

Sounds like he's talking about the Windfury Rank N and Windfury Rank N-1 application bug. It allows you to circumvent the new 3 second invisible cooldown on Windfury. Unfortunately for your friend, Blizzard is fixing this and the blues have stated so .

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: jman19
A friend of mine who has a Shammy does some really nice damage as enhancement, though he claims it is because WF is bugged

Sounds like he's talking about the Windfury Rank N and Windfury Rank N-1 application bug. It allows you to circumvent the new 3 second invisible cooldown on Windfury. Unfortunately for your friend, Blizzard is fixing this and the blues have stated so .

Oh he knows it, but he's enjoying it while he can

 

[quikah]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I have about 2.5k armor (a nice 500 over you, sir ) and I still think when my Shaman (18 levels below me) takes nearly the same damage (I watched some of it today.. I took 200-ish vs his 280-ish) per hit with less armor (I think he had about 2100 armor)... I get 33% vs his 21%.

Well, you must be misreading something then.

For enemies from level 1 to 59, the reduction to physical damage, as a percentage, is given by the following formula
%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * Enemy_Level)) * 100


For enemies from level 60 and up, the reduction to physical damage, as a percentage, is given by the following formula
%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * Enemy_Level)) * 100

It has nothing to do with your lvl. If you are seeing something different, figure out the formula and update www.wowwiki.com (search for damage reduction, I left enough broken posts in this thread already).

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I have about 2.5k armor (a nice 500 over you, sir ) and I still think when my Shaman (18 levels below me) takes nearly the same damage (I watched some of it today.. I took 200-ish vs his 280-ish) per hit with less armor (I think he had about 2100 armor)... I get 33% vs his 21%.

But even then, the calculations don't come out right. If my rogue was being hit for around 200 and my shaman around 280... .67x represents my rogue's mitigation amount and .79x represents my shaman's mitigation amount. 200/.67 != 280/.79 (or even come close to it).

Also, with this, I'm tempted to respec my rogue to make him more tank-ish as I don't feel like leveling my warrior to 70 just to do BRD runs for my Shaman .

I was thinking something like this ( http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZMxEz0VzxbooZxroo ). It looks kinda weird... but I wanted to keep Imp Sap, because I've been told of lucrative sneaky things that rogues can do in the (Edit: Heroic) Slave Pens using Imp Sap to sap a single elite and steal a chest . Unfortunately, I can't do that yet, because I don't have revered with Cenarion Refuge (only like 1000 off ).

Originally posted by: Sunner
By far the biggest nerf for melee DPS was the change of +weaponskill.
A HUGE nerf to fury warriors and I'd suspect rogues aren't much better off.

Well, I think this really hurt Human rogues the most to be honest. Their weapon skill racial was practically reduced to crap as you'd be max level and all it did was raise your crit rate against them a bit... whoop-de-doo. They had pretty decent DPS because all they needed was a tiny bit more +sword skill and they would receive almost no glancing attacks. Although, it also made the rogue talent Weapon Expertise absolute garbage.

Any melee DPS with half a clue would stack up on +weaponskill, though of course orcs and humans had an easier way to get it high.
This combined with retarded itemization had the unfortunate side effect of making a pair of lvl 44 epic gloves the best DPS gloves in the game bar none for warriors of course, but that's because Blizzards itemization guys are retards, and nerfing +weaponskill hit any competent(as in having some +wskill) melee DPS'er hard.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: quikah
Well, you must be misreading something then.

For enemies from level 1 to 59, the reduction to physical damage, as a percentage, is given by the following formula
%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * Enemy_Level)) * 100


For enemies from level 60 and up, the reduction to physical damage, as a percentage, is given by the following formula
%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * Enemy_Level)) * 100

It has nothing to do with your lvl. If you are seeing something different, figure out the formula and update www.wowwiki.com (search for damage reduction, I left enough broken posts in this thread already).

I went there and ran the numbers and that's what I came up with. Just use simple values of my rogue having 2450 and my shaman having 2100 and my rogue receiving 200 damage while my shaman receives 280... you'll see that things don't add up. Also note that I believe 200 was on the high end that my rogue received as I saw a crit for 340, and that'd be indicative (at least to me), that the damage could go even lower. However, I recall my shaman's damage taken to stay pretty consistently around 280.

I mean, there's really no argument here, rogues still suck as tanks even on mobs 20 levels below them. I have absolutely no problem doing anything if I simply use my rogue skills (sap one, kill the other via stun locks using mutilate) rather than being forced to just pull mobs (sometimes there's no way around it).

Oh and this link would work fine if you told Anandtech forums not to parse emoticons:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulasamage_reduction

Originally posted by: Sunner
Any melee DPS with half a clue would stack up on +weaponskill, though of course orcs and humans had an easier way to get it high.
This combined with retarded itemization had the unfortunate side effect of making a pair of lvl 44 epic gloves the best DPS gloves in the game bar none for warriors of course, but that's because Blizzards itemization guys are retards, and nerfing +weaponskill hit any competent(as in having some +wskill) melee DPS'er hard.

Heh, I remember people looking for trying to get Edgemaster's Handguards pretty feverishly.. these being warriors that were doing Naxxramas none the less! Before that, they were considered vendor trash! (Okay, maybe not Vendor Trash, but pretty crappy to most).

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Sunner
Any melee DPS with half a clue would stack up on +weaponskill, though of course orcs and humans had an easier way to get it high.
This combined with retarded itemization had the unfortunate side effect of making a pair of lvl 44 epic gloves the best DPS gloves in the game bar none for warriors of course, but that's because Blizzards itemization guys are retards, and nerfing +weaponskill hit any competent(as in having some +wskill) melee DPS'er hard.

Heh, I remember people looking for trying to get Edgemaster's Handguards pretty feverishly.. these being warriors that were doing Naxxramas none the less! Before that, they were considered vendor trash! (Okay, maybe not Vendor Trash, but pretty crappy to most).

Heh, I got lucky with mine, found them in Mara while boosting a guildie's alt, and this was right around the time Fury warriors started climbing in the DPS lists

Still, it felt a bit sad to know that even if Gauntlets of Annihilation dropped, those would be more of a PvP/Solo PvE toy, while the good ole lvl 44 gloves would be the raiding gloves...

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Heh, I got lucky with mine, found them in Mara while boosting a guildie's alt, and this was right around the time Fury warriors started climbing in the DPS lists

Still, it felt a bit sad to know that even if Gauntlets of Annihilation dropped, those would be more of a PvP/Solo PvE toy, while the good ole lvl 44 gloves would be the raiding gloves...

Well, honestly, I'm a bit disappointed in how Blizzard handled the change of weapon skill. There are really only two reasons I can think of: (1) rectify poor itemization (2) lower end-game DPS.

But now, there's some issues here with these.

(1) This is just a slap in the face with BC being released. There are items from 68-70 level quests with +weapon skill on them! Like the axe and dagger from "Nexus King Salhadaar"... they both have +weapon skill on them. The thing is... why do we want it? We don't! With Blizzard's change to weapon skill, all it does is raise your crit rate on a higher level mob (assuming your weapon skill for that type is maxed out, if not it actually helps fill that in). The thing is, you can just get +Crit Rating and raise your crit on higher level mobs and all other same level or lower level mobs! It is practically deplorable for them to be putting any weapon skill on high level items (as most players will never even see the benefit of them because their weapon skill is maxed)

(2) There are two ways Blizzard is lowering end-game DPS at the moment. Glancing and Resisting. Higher level mobs have a chance to resist, it's just that simple. The thing is, casters get spell penetration and spell hit chance that helps them "lower" the resist % of their target. Originally, the way for a melee fighter to lower their equivalent limiter of resist (i.e. glancing) was to get weapon skill. Now, Blizzard removed this and we lost our only way to remove the end-game limiter for melee classes. Note that this doesn't even include armor as we still have to deal with high armored mobs (but armor or even high-armor isn't indicative of end-game, so that doesn't count).

Also, if I remember correctly, they also nerfed defense in the same manner of removing its ability to prevent crushing blows or something to that effect. Although, I believe defense still provides parry and dodge, so it is still useful.