WoW question

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I like how you imply that rogues are not overpowered, then state how you almost never lose, except in situations where you are caught off guard, but that even then you still have a good chance to win or escape. >.>

That's because I've had my rogue for over two years. I know how to play and was regarded as a talented rogue (if I cared to show it ) with people who knew me on my server.

Also, a good player will attempt to make a rogue's escape futile. Such as a warrior applying Rend (or not if his Deep Wounds procs off a crit) and using some sort of slowing technique. Sure we can vanish... some rogues can sprint to get rid of it, but that's only once ever so often...

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
You think druids are overpowered, and state pounce, cat mangle, and moonfire as an example, yet those are not what are being nerfed. Besides, if a pounce (stun+damage over time), one mangle, and one moonfire killed your rogue, then you must have a lot of -stamina gear because that combination would only do around 1200 damage.

Wrong, the combination that she did totaled around 4000 damage.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Druids are in general strong against rogues, so using one anecdotal example is meaningless.

If they know how to play. Most druids are funny because I catch them (while in the middle of a fight against me) out of an armor-increasing form and then they die quite quickly.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
By the same token I could say that warlock's fear should break on any damage, have a maximum duration of 5 seconds, and have a 2.5 second cast time, because often a warlock can kill a mage from 100% to 0% entirely while feared.

We all know that Warlocks should receive that treatment .

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I don't see what this has to do with rogues...

He's talking about the main problem with rogues in BC PVE at the moment. Blizzard even acknowledged how bad this problem was and they're changing cleave to work in a conic arc instead of a chaining AoE.

Originally posted by: Smilin
They have high dps which is very much level limited rather than equipment limited and they have stealth.

Nah, there's a fairly healthy equipment benefit. The one difference we have versus poor warriors is a nice flat damage attack (Eviscerate, Rupture, Garotte) so no matter what, it will at least do a certain amount, even naked with a starting weapon.

Originally posted by: Smilin
Any AOE = no stealth. Any DOT = no stealth. The 'magical' flare that can reveal a rogue but the rogue can't see??? nutty. Rogues get first strike and it's a hard one for sure..but not enough to end the fight. After that they are a f'n melee class with tissue paper for armor.

Well, that's really always been the rogue's problem to deal with. Which is why I rarely (if ever) duel on my rogue. Frankly, in duels, the rogue (and somewhat druid) is at the highest disadvantage, because instead of a normal PVP situation, you know he's there and you know he's going to attack in a certain area. You don't get this in normal PVP. Sure, you may know some of these sometimes, but the pure fact that a rogue can usually choose their fight is their sole best advantage (and is practically necessary).

Originally posted by: Smilin
All the limitations of a melee class (hunters, mages ... you guys know how to deal with melee) and none of the benefits. After the first strike is over with how well does a rogue fare standing toe to toe with a warrior? hahah overpowered. That's a good one.

Not every class should be able to beat every class easily. Also, rogue vs warrior can be one of the harder fights to learn how to do properly as a rogue (bleed kiting).

Originally posted by: Smilin
People just like to whine because they get beaten by a rogue...and that only happens if you can't play your class right. Any well played class should be able to beat a rogue in a duel. Even if you have your head up your butt and are unable to break the first strike you should still beat them. They have no hp and no armor. What, you can't avoid a rogue long enough for his evasion to wear off?

Well, now Rogues have a lot more survivability with the inclusion of vanish removing hunter's mark (used to not remove it a bit ago) and Cloak of Shadows.

Originally posted by: ggnl
Aikouka's anecdotal evidence aside, (pre-BC, lvl 60) I've been on teh receiving end of plenty 1.8k ravages and 1k bear mangles. Not exactly spectacular dps, but when its being inflicted by a character with 8k armor and 7k health it's a little ridiculous. Add frenzied regeneration and the bash + regrowth + rejuv combo and it was just about impossible to kill even a modestly well geared druid with any of my lvl 60's (rogue, priest, or shaman).

Exactly what I was trying to push. Just because I mention one specific story doesn't mean this cannot occur elsewhere. The person did have epics but nothing incredibly uber designed for feral druids, so it was possible for other druids to do this as well. The other thing is, this person had 10-11k armor in Dire Bear, so my own mitigation was pretty darn bad. It felt like I was fighting a protection warrior with tanking gear on and the ability to actually do damage.

Although, now I should do a lot better against druids, because one thing I never mentioned is that she had Feral Instincts (druid talent similar to MoD) and I didn't have MoD at all. Now that I have MoD and being a Night Elf gives me almost a 4 level increase in Stealth-ability. Also, I just realized one of the easiest ways to beat a druid that I never thought of. All rogues know that we need to get them out of an armor-increasing form (caster being the nicest) and what's the one time a druid will always shapeshift... when removing an incapacitating/slowing effect. But now, you need to give them a reason to shapeshift... so start treating them like a warrior with bleed kiting (except without the bleed) and they'll either waste feral charge (gouge them) or they'll shapeshift. Keep your hand over Blind and be ready to blind if they switch forms.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Well I admit rogues may have a hard time in certain raid situations, but for solo'ing and pvp, which is 75% or more of the game, rogues are extremely strong. The only classes they have trouble with are warriors and druids, and druids are being nerfed into the ground. Most classes have another class which they are weak against. Mages < Warlocks, Warriors < Mages, Rogues > Warlocks, Warriors > Rogues, etc. Claiming that Rogues are weak because they have trouble with one class, which they can avoid altogether by using stealth, is not a reasonable argument.

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard. If you're caught off-guard by a rogue, the rogue does have a strong advantage in that situation. This is why people generally disregard Rogue vs Rogue duels, because there's a strong advantage between whoever's lucky enough to find the other one first rather than there necessarily being a skill difference.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I agree that druid's bear mangle is strong, but it only does really high amounts of damage while wearing DPS gear. You won't see a feral druid doing 2k mangle crits and have 20k armor at the same time. Druids wearing tanking gear do somewhat more damage then protection warriors, but that is because bears can only hold aggro via damage, they don't get the threat modifiers and abilities that warriors do. A bear in DPS gear does about the same damage as a MS warrior, and has about the same health and armor as well.

No one expects incredible armor and high damage, people see high damage and high armor, yet there's still the ability to stop the opponent, heal and go back to fighting. Albeit, this isn't as easy as say... a Paladin bubbling and healing. Don't forget, druids have a talent that raises threat from each attack. Druids also use some of the same methods as warriors when it comes to raising aggro on multiple mobs.. debuffing.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
While bears can bash and heal, (feral regeneration is actually pretty weak, requires a full rage bar to heal half health and on a 3 min cooldown), rogues can stun lock. Cats have good opening moves, but we don't have vanish, blind, kick, etc. We can't make use of rage or energy potions either. Druids SHOULD be able to do heavy damage and have high armor and health, because that is our only defense. We don't have the versatility that the pure classes have.

You forget that you can shapeshift out and heal. That's the one area where a lot of druids aren't good at... managing their different forms and knowing how to use them effectively. Of course I'm not trying to downplay players... it isn't easy nor is it supposed to be.

Originally posted by: Smilin
That high ap stuff is high ap stuff *only*. Same with other gear. If you pickup an item with a high ap it's not going to have much in the way of hit, crit or agility. What good is ap if you miss all the time? What good is ap if you give up agility and can't dodge? The same applies to gear for other classes. You won't find high defense AND high strength for instance. Not on the greens.

You know, one of the problems I have right now with Rogue gear is the ability to find a decent blend. There simply isn't gear that tailors toward the different rogue builds. I've been looking for some gear that provides essentially crit, hit, stam and ap, but it seems that you can really only specialize in 3 of those unless you get the PVP gear. Note that I'm getting these for a Mutilate build, which unfortunately (unlike Backstab) needs the crit as there's no talent to raise the crit rate. Also, since agility lost some of its potency during 60->70, it now takes 10 more agility per crit, so crit rating is now seen as the way to go. The problem is, Blessing of Kings ( now being available to both factions ) will not touch your crit rating, but it will raise your agility .

Originally posted by: CKent
Very little of it has AP only. Need I point out the new "of the bandit" suffix? Please... My armor (6k at 60 w/ shield) used to mean something, and stunlock used to be a tradeoff of damage for control. Now a rogue can kill me at over 7k armor in about 3 seconds, while using all his energy for stuns and letting autoattack do the work. It's bullsh!t, to be frank. Same goes for hunters, and to a lesser extent warriors and feral druids - this is an itemization thing, I'm not picking on rogues in particular.

In PvP, rogues are overpowered. No ifs, ands or buts. My belief is that it's due only to AP itemization (I'm not crying about CloS, I think that ability is fine, though I wouldn't complain if the cooldown were increased to 2-3m).

You're ignoring what he's trying to discuss. Yeah, AP is nice, but you can't just focus on Stam and AP as a rogue. If you do, you will fail when your mutilate (for example) misses completely. I have had a mutilate not hit the mob at all, which you may see as odd since it is two physically separate attacks. But the first strike missed and the second strike was dodged (by a gouged target none the less). Also, there's no way a rogue will kill you with pure auto attacks unless you have extremely low health. Also not to mention they'd never be able to stun you, because they'd only have 2 combo points (possibly 3 if they're sub specced and have opportunity) from Cheap Shot . They could get 5 if they had premed though.

Originally posted by: Anubis
rogues have been nerfed in basically every patch sence beta, amazingly they didnt nerf us in this one also

Eh, I remember some "nerfs" were nothing more than rogues complaining. I remember when Seal Fate was "nerfed"... oh wait, Blizzard fixed it, yet I still remember the rogues on my old server complaining about only receiving 1 extra combo point instead of 2. The only other things I remember people complaining about were AP normalization and the vanish change.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Please name the patch where your damage was decreased by half. Half as in your critical hits that used to hit for 1000 now only hit for 500. Meaning you do about as much damage at 70 as a Shaman at 50.

I lost damage when AP was normalized~

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: torpid
Did they ever make the hunter skill to detect rogues and others useful? When I played a hunter in pvp I remember having less than 1 second to react if I saw a blip because the range was about 2 feet.

You don't think it would be a bit overpowered to be able to track stealthed players on your minimap from a range greater than a few yards?

Yeah, but it's dumb to have a skill that's totally useless. Hunters have several. They should just get rid of it, not sure anyone would miss it much since flare is significantly better anyway. Just wondering if they ever actually made it useful or not.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: CKent
Very little of it has AP only. Need I point out the new "of the bandit" suffix? Please... My armor (6k at 60 w/ shield) used to mean something, and stunlock used to be a tradeoff of damage for control. Now a rogue can kill me at over 7k armor in about 3 seconds, while using all his energy for stuns and letting autoattack do the work. It's bullsh!t, to be frank. Same goes for hunters, and to a lesser extent warriors and feral druids - this is an itemization thing, I'm not picking on rogues in particular.

In PvP, rogues are overpowered. No ifs, ands or buts. My belief is that it's due only to AP itemization (I'm not crying about CloS, I think that ability is fine, though I wouldn't complain if the cooldown were increased to 2-3m).

You're ignoring what he's trying to discuss. Yeah, AP is nice, but you can't just focus on Stam and AP as a rogue. If you do, you will fail when your mutilate (for example) misses completely. I have had a mutilate not hit the mob at all, which you may see as odd since it is two physically separate attacks. But the first strike missed and the second strike was dodged (by a gouged target none the less). Also, there's no way a rogue will kill you with pure auto attacks unless you have extremely low health. Also not to mention they'd never be able to stun you, because they'd only have 2 combo points (possibly 3 if they're sub specced and have opportunity) from Cheap Shot . They could get 5 if they had premed though.

You're claiming you need to give up AP for hit, crit & agi, and this simply isn't the case. You could focus specifically on hit, crit and agi, and due to the itemization still end up with hundreds of raw AP. It's far too much, the math behind either the new AP or the new armor rating needs to change. I'm a mail wearer with a shield. This used to mean something. I now may as well wear cloth. Hitpoints don't mean much either, I could drop from 7500 to 5k and it would take physical damage dealers 2 seconds to kill me instead of 3... what's the point?

 

[Vortex22]

Didn't read the thread because it looks like it's degraded into a WoW forum nerf calling arguement (lolz), but I would say rogue or warlock would be equally great partners.

Rogue is awesome for any caster, especially against melee because they can control the target while you kill, saving you all the time and mana you would have spent trying keeping distance.
Warlock is great because your damage boosting abilities stack with each other and you will be able to destroy basically anything that doesn't have the capability to dispel magic.
Feral druid can be argued as a good duo partner for almost any class because of their versatility, but I think the other two choices would be better for a shadow priest.

Also, the recent feral nerfs are technically the "largest in WoW history" if you go by the numbers, but I'm still able to MT Karazhan and don't have any problems contributing to my arena teams, so it's not that bad.
<-- 70 feral druid

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: CKent
You're claiming you need to give up AP for hit, crit & agi, and this simply isn't the case. You could focus specifically on hit, crit and agi, and due to the itemization still end up with hundreds of raw AP. It's far too much, the math behind either the new AP or the new armor rating needs to change. I'm a mail wearer with a shield. This used to mean something. I now may as well wear cloth. Hitpoints don't mean much either, I could drop from 7500 to 5k and it would take physical damage dealers 2 seconds to kill me instead of 3... what's the point?

Believe it or not, I can't sit back and watch my AP stay that low or else I won't be powerful enough to really be potent when it comes to damage. Keeping my AP closer to my level 60 amount would be detrimental as the mobs raise in health and armor. It's really all about balancing, which I'm just finding so much harder in BC. I think it may just require a setup of handpicked epics, but I grew to dislike PVE enough that I don't like just doing it.

About pwnerizing Shamans... I never had a problem even when they had a shield . Well, as long as I got the first hit that is. I think I've mentioned it before, but I remember taking one down so fast, I was just like ":Q".

Question though... would you prefer Enh/Ele for leveling or Enh/Rest... I've been leaning more toward Rest being my minor tree so I can fight against elites easier. But I could always do evil tactics such as Frost Shock kiting with Ele as my minor tree.

Originally posted by: Vortex22
Didn't read the thread because it looks like it's degraded into a WoW forum nerf calling arguement (lolz), but I would say rogue or warlock would be equally great partners.

Hehe, that's kind of typical of WoW discussions when it comes to talk of classes. Really almost anywhere.

Originally posted by: Vortex22
Also, the recent feral nerfs are technically the "largest in WoW history" if you go by the numbers, but I'm still able to MT Karazhan and don't have any problems contributing to my arena teams, so it's not that bad.
<-- 70 feral druid

I suspected that they'd still be able to tank and such. But I think these changes really came about from Warriors crying foul. I can understand where they come from, it sucks to play a class that really has one role yet another class was changed to be proficient enough to play multiple roles inside of a party. Then when this class takes loot that has bonuses meant for another class... ohhh that makes my blood boil.

Although I do admit to using cloth on my Shaman for healing... but that's due to poor mail itemization for healing. And at least the cloth doesn't have set bonuses that only work on Cheap Shot or Kidney Shot .

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: CKent
You're claiming you need to give up AP for hit, crit & agi, and this simply isn't the case. You could focus specifically on hit, crit and agi, and due to the itemization still end up with hundreds of raw AP. It's far too much, the math behind either the new AP or the new armor rating needs to change. I'm a mail wearer with a shield. This used to mean something. I now may as well wear cloth. Hitpoints don't mean much either, I could drop from 7500 to 5k and it would take physical damage dealers 2 seconds to kill me instead of 3... what's the point?

Believe it or not, I can't sit back and watch my AP stay that low or else I won't be powerful enough to really be potent when it comes to damage. Keeping my AP closer to my level 60 amount would be detrimental as the mobs raise in health and armor. It's really all about balancing, which I'm just finding so much harder in BC. I think it may just require a setup of handpicked epics, but I grew to dislike PVE enough that I don't like just doing it.

About pwnerizing Shamans... I never had a problem even when they had a shield . Well, as long as I got the first hit that is. I think I've mentioned it before, but I remember taking one down so fast, I was just like ":Q".

Question though... would you prefer Enh/Ele for leveling or Enh/Rest... I've been leaning more toward Rest being my minor tree so I can fight against elites easier. But I could always do evil tactics such as Frost Shock kiting with Ele as my minor tree.

At 60 I owned everyone except warlocks. And by owned I don't mean beat... I mean owned. Even 2-3 at once was a common occurrance. I was around 5k hp/mana, close to +500 lightning damage and 6k armor with my shield.

A rogue would have to be exceptionally well geared and at that, exceptionally lucky to kill me. First shot was a given, without that they'd last as long as a snowflake in hell. I even banked my PvP trinket as I geared up - I could easily survive the stunlock, unlike now. Most rogue fights would go something like Cheap Shot -> tap tap tap (melee) -> Kidney Shot -> tap tap tap -> start running -> poison cleansing totem -> earthbind totem -> spam decursive if needed (cure poison after the dynamic window nerf) -> flame shock -> get distance -> trinket up, hit EM and electrocute their ass. I'd say a rogue stood maybe a 5% chance in a 1v1 situation getting the jump on me. 10-15% if they were very well geared, and by that I mean full tier 2 or better for the ap to cut through my armor, not PvP sta / agi gear.

Getting used to having the PvP survivability of wet tissue paper in TBC has been difficult. There's no longer really any difference between cloth & mail, shield or no. I'm now a mage without frost nova or blink, and only one real spell school (though I can heal). It's my opinion that this is due to the AP itemization.

The trend this expansion has been a return to traditional roles. This has meant new ranks for dps casters, new AP for physical dps, and horrid nerfing of healers' / warriors' DPS trees to encourage them to spec healing/tanking. It stinks. It means only LOLDPS!!1!1 classes have a chance of ever seeing their epic mounts and makes them very overpowered in PvP.

--------------------

As for levelling a shaman, god it's been so long I forget, and what I remember is probably no longer relevant. The 1.11 review, which took place LONG after I was 60, essentially made us spec enhancement for the same melee proficiency we used to have without that spec. So whatever whacky noob build I levelled with was fine since I could melee well heh...

I'd stay away from the "suicide spec" ele/enh. Just IMO, but the two trees require such vastly different gear that you can only really be effective in the tree you're both specced and geared for. Whichever tree you use, supplement it with resto for utility talents like Imp HW and Healing Focus, two talents I consider to be 100% necessary for shamans. I don't know what level you are, but I'd probably go all 41 in enh before looking at resto as you level. Healing Focus is nice for "oh sh!t" situations and virtually necessary to heal 5mans though, so this is your call depending on your playstyle, what you do most, etc. Don't bother with elemental till you can get at least 300-400+ spell damage, this won't happen till TBC (didn't happen without raiding pre-expansion). I'm at almost 600 and it's woefully inadequate compared to even just 400 pre-expansion. The gear really doesn't offer much more, it's simply more available.

Originally posted by: Vortex22
Didn't read the thread because it looks like it's degraded into a WoW forum nerf calling arguement (lolz), but I would say rogue or warlock would be equally great partners.

Hehe, that's kind of typical of WoW discussions when it comes to talk of classes. Really almost anywhere.

I'm sure we can handle this like the mature adults we are... isn't that right, Mr. Poopy-pants?

Seriously, nothing wrong with a good discussion. Nobody's being an ass.

 

[QuantumPion]

That's because I've had my rogue for over two years. I know how to play and was regarded as a talented rogue (if I cared to show it ) with people who knew me on my server.

Also, a good player will attempt to make a rogue's escape futile. Such as a warrior applying Rend (or not if his Deep Wounds procs off a crit) and using some sort of slowing technique. Sure we can vanish... some rogues can sprint to get rid of it, but that's only once ever so often...

Again, you contract yourself. "I can't escape, well I mean I can escape against any class except warriors, although I can escape from warriors when I use my relatively short cooldown". So in other words, rogues are just fine. Just because you can't win 100% of fights doesn't mean you are not overpowered. Quite the contrary, the fact that you can win 75% means, by definition, you are overpowered.

I've had a mage for two years and know how to play him extremely well. Yet even still I pretty much have zero chance at beating a competent warlock in half-decent gear. Just because unskilled rogues can't win all their fights doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. Quite the contrary--the fact that, with practice, rogues can win far more often then they lose by definition means they are overpowered.

Wrong, the combination that she did totaled around 4000 damage.

Maybe you should check thottbott and see what these abilities actually do.

Pounce - 4 second stun, requires stealth, does a few hundred damage over TWENTY seconds. I'm guessing what you are really referring to is Ravage, which is like a rogue's ambush.
Moonfire - requires caster form, does a few hundred damage with a few hundred more over 10 seconds.
Mangle - this is the only one of the three abilities mentioned that does significant damage. It costs 40 energy, increases damage done by bleed effects, and does by itself maybe 1000 damage at level 70. It is possible to get two mangles in during a pounce stun.

Two mangles and a moonfire wouldn't do 4000 damage. A ravage crit and mangle crit might, using trinkets. In any case, if your rogue at level 70 only has 4000 hp, then you deserve to die that easily. Even mages have >6000 hp nowadays. Rogues are far more capable of doing more damage more quickly with stuns in between then druids are.

If they know how to play. Most druids are funny because I catch them (while in the middle of a fight against me) out of an armor-increasing form and then they die quite quickly.

Druids have to do this in order to heal themselves in a fight. A druid that did not shift out during a fight is one that doesn't know how to play. Still, it is difficult and risky, especially vs a rogue. That's why druids need high armor and attack power, because that is our only defense. We don't have blind, vanish, etc. We can't use shields or switch to defensive stance.

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard.

So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

All these comments are moot anyway. Cat form is for questing solo, or maybe dps'ing in a group (not likely there would be a shortage of real dps'ers and an excess of healers). Cat form sucks for pvp, except for an opening move when you catch someone off guard (like a mage sitting down drinking, tee hee). Cats die very quickly in any prolonged combat because we have low armor and no other damage mitigation. Thats why in pvp you may see a cat open up with a ravage or pounce, but then immidiately shift to bear form for the rest of the fight. And it is bear form that has been horribly, horribly nerfed. We are back to the 2005/6 days now, 100% free honorable kill.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

Originally posted by: JohnAn2112

Originally posted by: Anubis

LOLOLOLOLOL @ "biggest nerf in wow history"

you get 1 patch of nerfs, lol

rogues have been nerfed in basically every patch sence beta, amazingly they didnt nerf us in this one also

LOL fellow rogue here and I laughed at that too. It's always been tough playing a rogue, but I enjoy it a lot despite the nerfs we received.

Edit: BTW, I'm sure we'll be seeing a nerf on CloS since casters have been crying about it since it became a trainable talent.

Please name the patch where your damage was decreased by half. Half as in your critical hits that used to hit for 1000 now only hit for 500. Meaning you do about as much damage at 70 as a Shaman at 50.

patch 1.8

the Wepon Speed Normalization Patch

 

[Vortex22]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

Originally posted by: JohnAn2112

Originally posted by: Anubis

LOLOLOLOLOL @ "biggest nerf in wow history"

you get 1 patch of nerfs, lol

rogues have been nerfed in basically every patch sence beta, amazingly they didnt nerf us in this one also

LOL fellow rogue here and I laughed at that too. It's always been tough playing a rogue, but I enjoy it a lot despite the nerfs we received.

Edit: BTW, I'm sure we'll be seeing a nerf on CloS since casters have been crying about it since it became a trainable talent.

Please name the patch where your damage was decreased by half. Half as in your critical hits that used to hit for 1000 now only hit for 500. Meaning you do about as much damage at 70 as a Shaman at 50.

patch 1.8

the Wepon Speed Normalization Patch

If I recall correctly, the tests run after that patch with the best (at the time) available weapons showed a ~5% decrease in damage output, only for the normalized skills as well.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard.

So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

Wait, hold on, is a hunter with flare supposed to win that fight? Because I still lost about 75% of the time when I used to play a hunter.

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard.

So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

It isn't a factor in arenas and BGs (the only place that pvp really matters) because you're expecting to get jumped. If you still freak out when you get cheap shotted in organized pvp then you need to learn to get over your newbie shakes.

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard.

So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

Wait, hold on, is a hunter with flare supposed to win that fight? Because I still lost about 75% of the time when I used to play a hunter.

Maybe you're just a bad hunter...

I'm not a good PvP hunter though. In PvE I'm fine and I can kite great, but I get lost in PvP.

As rogue, I think I did fairly well in PvP.

Before TBC (I haven't played my rogue much since TBC came out), with my super blue armor (lol), I didn't have too much trouble in PvP. The only class that really gave me trouble were Paladins. After their revamp, I didn't get a chance to dial down the strat for taking them out.

Shamans didn't give me that much trouble either, even though I only really dealt with them in duels. (And a few times in arena play)

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard.

So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

Wait, hold on, is a hunter with flare supposed to win that fight? Because I still lost about 75% of the time when I used to play a hunter.

what spec were you and how was yoru gear, even if i get teh jump on a decent hunter its got a sure win, before with teh FD trap macro the sec you arnt stunned we are ina ice trap and then itwe get kited to death

back when i was speced for PVP (Hemo) i pretty much killed everyone with ease, this was before TBC, havent PVPed much at 70

 

[MDE]

A Priest\Warrior team is pretty good if you're going to be playing together most of the time.

 

[QuantumPion]

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard.

So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

It isn't a factor in arenas and BGs (the only place that pvp really matters) because you're expecting to get jumped. If you still freak out when you get cheap shotted in organized pvp then you need to learn to get over your newbie shakes.

It's not just about the surprise factor in world pvp. It's the fact that even if your opponent knows you are after him, you still get to make the first move. And that first move will usually be a stun, followed by damage and more stuns. And in the arenas, you get to use all your cooldowns every fight, which is a huge huge advantage for rogues compared to other classes.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard.

So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

Wait, hold on, is a hunter with flare supposed to win that fight? Because I still lost about 75% of the time when I used to play a hunter.

what spec were you and how was yoru gear, even if i get teh jump on a decent hunter its got a sure win, before with teh FD trap macro the sec you arnt stunned we are ina ice trap and then itwe get kited to death

back when i was speced for PVP (Hemo) i pretty much killed everyone with ease, this was before TBC, havent PVPed much at 70

I wasn't spec'd for PvP because I rarely played it. If I got a freeze trap in, it was a pretty easy victory. The issue was, my freeze trap was usually cooling down since I was usually on a battleground.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: CKent
At 60 I owned everyone except warlocks. And by owned I don't mean beat... I mean owned. Even 2-3 at once was a common occurrance. I was around 5k hp/mana, close to +500 lightning damage and 6k armor with my shield.

I never ran into Shamans that could beat me that badly. In fact, the Shaman that I spoke of beating quickly was geared out in AQ40 gear and still went down like a sack-o-potatoes. Although, elemental can do quite a lot of damage in a PVP situation and I could see how you can take out a group of people rushing in a BG quickly with a quick Elemental Mastery + damage increaser (ToEP etc) + Chain Lightning + Nature's Swiftness + Chain Lightning.

Although, I don't think I ever fought the one guy on LB who was considered the best Shaman. We always had a mutual respect for each other so we'd never fight out in the PVE world. In fact I actually helped him at some points. I probably should've asked for a duel or something before I left.

Originally posted by: CKent
A rogue would have to be exceptionally well geared and at that, exceptionally lucky to kill me. First shot was a given, without that they'd last as long as a snowflake in hell. I even banked my PvP trinket as I geared up - I could easily survive the stunlock, unlike now. Most rogue fights would go something like Cheap Shot -> tap tap tap (melee) -> Kidney Shot -> tap tap tap -> start running -> poison cleansing totem -> earthbind totem -> spam decursive if needed (cure poison after the dynamic window nerf) -> flame shock -> get distance -> trinket up, hit EM and electrocute their ass. I'd say a rogue stood maybe a 5% chance in a 1v1 situation getting the jump on me. 10-15% if they were very well geared, and by that I mean full tier 2 or better for the ap to cut through my armor, not PvP sta / agi gear.

A rogue would run away after the Kidney Shot or you would? First off, the rogue should've been using Crippling Poison. I don't care if you can remove it, because I not only use Wound Poison on Shamans (5 stacks, Cure Poison only removes 1 at a time), but I also have Vile Poisons, so you may not even be able to get rid of my poison each time (gives chance per point to have your poisons be immune to dispel (this even includes the mage's talent Blazing Speed)). Not to mention, I'd just gouge you .

Originally posted by: CKent
Getting used to having the PvP survivability of wet tissue paper in TBC has been difficult. There's no longer really any difference between cloth & mail, shield or no. I'm now a mage without frost nova or blink, and only one real spell school (though I can heal). It's my opinion that this is due to the AP itemization.

I donno... I can't see it being that bad. Can you link me your armory?

Originally posted by: CKent
The trend this expansion has been a return to traditional roles. This has meant new ranks for dps casters, new AP for physical dps, and horrid nerfing of healers' / warriors' DPS trees to encourage them to spec healing/tanking. It stinks. It means only LOLDPS!!1!1 classes have a chance of ever seeing their epic mounts and makes them very overpowered in PvP.

The thing is, we need more AP to scale with the higher HP of mobs. My rogue had about 900 AP pre-BC and now he has like ... 1225 or something like that. Compared to the heavy drop in crit chance (~28% to ~19.5%!!), this increase is minimal. Although, I think I did also raise my hit chance a bit.

Originally posted by: CKent
I'd stay away from the "suicide spec" ele/enh. Just IMO, but the two trees require such vastly different gear that you can only really be effective in the tree you're both specced and geared for. Whichever tree you use, supplement it with resto for utility talents like Imp HW and Healing Focus, two talents I consider to be 100% necessary for shamans. I don't know what level you are, but I'd probably go all 41 in enh before looking at resto as you level. Healing Focus is nice for "oh sh!t" situations and virtually necessary to heal 5mans though, so this is your call depending on your playstyle, what you do most, etc. Don't bother with elemental till you can get at least 300-400+ spell damage, this won't happen till TBC (didn't happen without raiding pre-expansion). I'm at almost 600 and it's woefully inadequate compared to even just 400 pre-expansion. The gear really doesn't offer much more, it's simply more available.

That's pretty much what I suspected. I don't know, I saw some people talking about enhancement + elemental, but I suspected that it wouldn't be great together... maybe in BC as I see quite a bit of gear with spell damage and strength on it. One thing I found kind of disappointing is that Blizzard was smart enough to make all caster daggers main-hand only . I wanted to dual-wield caster daggers on my Shaman and wtfpwn with dual +spell damage enchants hehe.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Again, you contract yourself. "I can't escape, well I mean I can escape against any class except warriors, although I can escape from warriors when I use my relatively short cooldown". So in other words, rogues are just fine. Just because you can't win 100% of fights doesn't mean you are not overpowered. Quite the contrary, the fact that you can win 75% means, by definition, you are overpowered.

How am I contradicting myself? Just because I only mention one class? The fact that I decide to not mention every single class's mechanism for stopping a rogue from stealthing or vanishing or whatever-ing doesn't mean it doesn't exist! Just to make you happy, I'll list each classes way of stopping a rogue and the only ways around it.

Preventing Stealth:
Rogue: Garotte (Dwarf Racial or Luffa), Rupture (Dwarf Racial or Luffa), Deadly Poison (Elixir of Poison Resistance, Strong Anti-Venom)
Warrior: Deep Wounds (Dwarf Racial or Luffa), Rend (Dwarf Racial or Luffa)
Druid: Faerie Fire (Cloak of Shadows), Moonfire (Cloak of Shadows)
Paladin: None
Mage: None
Warlock: Curse of Agony (Cloak of Shadows), Corruption (Cloak of Shadows), Unstable Affliction (Cloak of Shadows), Seed of Corruption (Cloak of Shadows)
Shaman: Flame Shock (Cloak of Shadows)
Priest: Shadow Word: Pain (Cloak of Shadows)
Hunter: Serpent Sting (Elixir of Poison Resistance, Strong Anti-Venom)

Enhanced Stealth Removal:
Rogue: None
Warrior: Demoralizing Shout, Thunderclap
Druid: Hurricane
Mage: Arcane Explosion, Blast Wave, Frost Nova, Dragon's Breath
Paladin: Consecration
Warlock: Hellfire, Shadowfury, Paranoia
Shaman: Earthbind Totem
Priest: Holy Nova
Hunter: Hunter's Mark (Vanish), Track Hidden, Flare

Good enough of a list for you? And if I see one word about "Oh that's a talent!" or anything, you can shut up before you say it.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I've had a mage for two years and know how to play him extremely well. Yet even still I pretty much have zero chance at beating a competent warlock in half-decent gear. Just because unskilled rogues can't win all their fights doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. Quite the contrary--the fact that, with practice, rogues can win far more often then they lose by definition means they are overpowered.

It seems like someone was bitten by the I-should-always-win bug. There happens to be a firm belief among WoW players, for some unknown reason, that no matter what, a class should always be able to beat another class. It's this crazy notion that tends to create all the constant complaining from people.

Also, where's this "rogues win far more often than they lose" fact coming from? Are you going based off the fact that rogues tend to gank you often? Face this fact, you're a CLOTHIE. Rogues WILL TARGET YOU. I'm sorry they forgot to mention that in the Mage class description on the character select screen.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Maybe you should check thottbott and see what these abilities actually do.

Excuse me for using the wrong terms. It's not like my 24 druid actually has any of these skills and it's all based on memory from about a month and a half ago.

Okay, so let me go over how this duel went with you. I had about 3700 hp pre-expansion. Not a horrible lot for PVP (I knew Rogues with around 5000hp unbuffed), but I made up for it with the superior gear set bonuses that went along very well with my talent build. The duel started with the druid getting me (I had 3/5 MoD + Shadowmeld, she had 5/5 Feral Instinct + Shadowmeld + Stealth Cape Enchant), I didn't really care too much about losing the first hit... I've won fights like that before. So once I could move (I was stunned, hence the Pounce), I went after her (she ran off after doing a couple moves). She switched to caster form and Moonfired me. I hit gouge and went behind... I lost the duel.

This is not an exaggeration. I was speechless after this! I was like "wha... what happened!?" because I read my combat log and it showed nothing (I think I modified it too much :x). Then I recalled that she asked to duel me to show me her new "rogue killer" technique (I taught her how to kill rogues initially... and I paid for it ). Then she did it again... and after the stun was over, I had around 1000-1500 hp left. The Moonfire and DoTs took me down the rest of the way. I think there may've been a move or two in there that I don't remember... because she probably used the bleed finishing move in combination with mangle to increase the damage.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
In any case, if your rogue at level 70 only has 4000 hp, then you deserve to die that easily.

I think you missed the fact that I said pre-BC, post-2.0. Please read more carefully to avoid such ill-found bashes of my character~.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Druids have to do this in order to heal themselves in a fight. A druid that did not shift out during a fight is one that doesn't know how to play. Still, it is difficult and risky, especially vs a rogue. That's why druids need high armor and attack power, because that is our only defense. We don't have blind, vanish, etc. We can't use shields or switch to defensive stance.

Yeah... hence why I discussed the concept of switching forms being a necessity and how the ability to do it proficiently is not an easy task nor is it easy to do properly.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

I don't see where I said that... you're incredibly defensive and so much that it's nearing an offensive amount. I merely stated that a lot of people tend to find Rogues strong because they have no idea that they're there. You see a warrior coming while eating/drinking... you don't see the rogue who's about to Ambush you (insta-crit while sitting too~).

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
We are back to the 2005/6 days now, 100% free honorable kill.

Ohhh here we go again . I'll give you a free honor kill scenario: Rogue caught in Entangling Roots with Faerie Fire on and no CoS. How much fun do you think that was? Once Blizzard nerfed Vanish to remove the ability to get rid of snares even with Faerie Fire on, Rogues became fodder for any decent druid willing to noobfire spam. I remember when I quit my rogue for awhile and played a bunch of other characters to level them up... I came back to my rogue when PVP changed to replace Perdition's Blade with the GM dagger. I was doing some dueling and I went to Vanish in that scenario and it wasn't doing anything. I was so confused .

Originally posted by: torpid
Wait, hold on, is a hunter with flare supposed to win that fight? Because I still lost about 75% of the time when I used to play a hunter.

HOW!? All you do is stand on a f'n freezing trap an flare on yourself constantly! The only rogue defense against this was either Blind (hopefully you can catch them between traps... or Blind and wait for the evil trap and/or flare to go away) or use the Barov's Peasant Caller trinket. Now, we can just CoS and run over a trap (even in Stealth), but before we had absolutely no defense and Hunter duels were just worthless. Every time a hunter would challenge me to a duel, unless I knew the guy, I just hit cancel. I wasn't about to put up with a stupid hunter standing on a trap the whole time.

Originally posted by: Tremulant
Before TBC (I haven't played my rogue much since TBC came out), with my super blue armor (lol), I didn't have too much trouble in PvP. The only class that really gave me trouble were Paladins. After their revamp, I didn't get a chance to dial down the strat for taking them out.

Paladins weren't too bad, but they're just a pain with how long it takes 'em to get down. Sometimes you gotta be willing to run off and come back 10-15 seconds later. Paladins are essentially two-three people in one.. the pally, his bubble and his blessing of protection. You either gotta hope he won't call one of his friends in or kill his friends before you can kill him. Unfortunately, Paladins get a hard on when they can stun-n-judge. Paladins are also weak to gouge-n-stealths.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: torpid
I wasn't spec'd for PvP because I rarely played it. If I got a freeze trap in, it was a pretty easy victory. The issue was, my freeze trap was usually cooling down since I was usually on a battleground.

Hunters in PVP battlegrounds weren't too bad to fight. It really depends on how well they could survive against the initial onslaught. Beast Mastery hunters can give Rogues a run for their money though... being immune to poisons isn't fun at all . Where I was mainly discussing flare and such is in duels where it is horridly abused by Hunters as a rogue loses his best advantage: you not knowing he's coming.

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

A lot of people have the misconception that rogues are strong because they're typically caught off-guard.

So, are you saying that being able to catch your opponent off guard is not an advantage? Or that it doesn't count, because dueling against hunters with flare is the only thing that matters?

It isn't a factor in arenas and BGs (the only place that pvp really matters) because you're expecting to get jumped. If you still freak out when you get cheap shotted in organized pvp then you need to learn to get over your newbie shakes.

It's not just about the surprise factor in world pvp. It's the fact that even if your opponent knows you are after him, you still get to make the first move. And that first move will usually be a stun, followed by damage and more stuns. And in the arenas, you get to use all your cooldowns every fight, which is a huge huge advantage for rogues compared to other classes.

And I think you fail to realize that a rogues main defense is stealth and stuns. It's the only way that we can safely reach our targets and deal damage before getting pounced on. Sure, it's an advantage, but all classes have their own advantages.

Stealth and stuns just get picked on the most because they're surprising and annoying, all at the same time.

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Tremulant
Before TBC (I haven't played my rogue much since TBC came out), with my super blue armor (lol), I didn't have too much trouble in PvP. The only class that really gave me trouble were Paladins. After their revamp, I didn't get a chance to dial down the strat for taking them out.

Paladins weren't too bad, but they're just a pain with how long it takes 'em to get down. Sometimes you gotta be willing to run off and come back 10-15 seconds later. Paladins are essentially two-three people in one.. the pally, his bubble and his blessing of protection. You either gotta hope he won't call one of his friends in or kill his friends before you can kill him. Unfortunately, Paladins get a hard on when they can stun-n-judge. Paladins are also weak to gouge-n-stealths.

Yeah. I'd usually die to reinforcements before I could take them out.

It's such a pain, because you have to kill them 3 times to kill them once (ie: make them use all their mana).

So, I'd usually avoid them, or just keep them stunned or out of the fight while the softer classes were taken out.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Tremulant

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Tremulant
Before TBC (I haven't played my rogue much since TBC came out), with my super blue armor (lol), I didn't have too much trouble in PvP. The only class that really gave me trouble were Paladins. After their revamp, I didn't get a chance to dial down the strat for taking them out.

Paladins weren't too bad, but they're just a pain with how long it takes 'em to get down. Sometimes you gotta be willing to run off and come back 10-15 seconds later. Paladins are essentially two-three people in one.. the pally, his bubble and his blessing of protection. You either gotta hope he won't call one of his friends in or kill his friends before you can kill him. Unfortunately, Paladins get a hard on when they can stun-n-judge. Paladins are also weak to gouge-n-stealths.

Yeah. I'd usually die to reinforcements before I could take them out.

It's such a pain, because you have to kill them 3 times to kill them once (ie: make them use all their mana).

So, I'd usually avoid them, or just keep them stunned or out of the fight while the softer classes were taken out.

Haha, indeed.
A long time ago I fought a paladin in Feralas(both at lvl 60 though).
We fought for probably 5 minutes, neither had great gear by any means.
Had enough time to gulp two healing pots and use two bandages, he downed a couple of mana pots I think.

Eventually I was about to win, he was oom and had used every damn cooldown in the book, him very close to 20% with me still at 40+.
Roots, his drood buddy comes along, roots me, heals him up, and helps him kill me.

Damn that pissed me off.
One of many reasons why lamadins are the class I hate by far the most

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
Preventing Stealth:
Rogue: Garotte (Dwarf Racial or Luffa), Rupture (Dwarf Racial or Luffa), Deadly Poison (Elixir of Poison Resistance, Strong Anti-Venom)
Warrior: Deep Wounds (Dwarf Racial or Luffa), Rend (Dwarf Racial or Luffa)
Druid: Faerie Fire (Cloak of Shadows), Moonfire (Cloak of Shadows)
Paladin: None
Mage: None
Warlock: Curse of Agony (Cloak of Shadows), Corruption (Cloak of Shadows), Unstable Affliction (Cloak of Shadows), Seed of Corruption (Cloak of Shadows)
Shaman: Flame Shock (Cloak of Shadows)
Priest: Shadow Word: Pain (Cloak of Shadows)
Hunter: Serpent Sting (Elixir of Poison Resistance, Strong Anti-Venom)

Enhanced Stealth Removal:
Rogue: None
Warrior: Demoralizing Shout, Thunderclap
Druid: Hurricane
Mage: Arcane Explosion, Blast Wave, Frost Nova, Dragon's Breath
Paladin: Consecration
Warlock: Hellfire, Shadowfury, Paranoia
Shaman: Earthbind Totem
Priest: Holy Nova
Hunter: Hunter's Mark (Vanish), Track Hidden, Flare

Couple more for your list.

Preventing Stealth:
Pally: spam some cheap assed aoe. Oh noes I burned my toes! Everyone can see me!
Mage: spam some cheap assed aoe.

Enhanced Stealth Removal:
All Classes: Wait a couple secs then use any of the normal stealth removal tactics.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Couple more for your list.

Preventing Stealth:
Pally: spam some cheap assed aoe. Oh noes I burned my toes! Everyone can see me!
Mage: spam some cheap assed aoe.

Enhanced Stealth Removal:
All Classes: Wait a couple secs then use any of the normal stealth removal tactics.

Well, the reason why I left out those sort of AoEs are that they don't necessarily stop you. Like a warlock can cast a dot and you can go anywhere and it will still remove you out of stealth. I also didn't include mage's ignite because it isn't controlled.

Speaking of mages... it was funny watching my brother duel a mage from his guild. He's a warrior and the mage had molten armor up. Molten Armor kept crit'ing and it'd proc Ignite on my brother. Well, the mage tried to polymorph him and it kept pulling him right out :laugh:. Then he sat there charging up a pyroblast and my brother just hits spell reflect right as it's about to hit him :laugh:. The mage practically killed himself the entire fight!

I also forgot to mention that Flare keeps the rogue from stealthing as well (not just bringing them out of stealth).

 

[Anubis]

Ckent i honestly think you are exxagurating a bit, i never had issues with shamans untill the 2.0 patch when they got earth shield, before that they wernt any harder then hunters, full resto shamans were a tough fight but they did so lil damage that killing them wasent that hard, IMO harder to kill a feral druid


speced either prep daggers or hemo i coudl kill anyoen that wasent wearing plate or in bear form in about 9 seconds

 

[Aikouka]

Hmm I was reading the Druid forums last night and wow... I have never seen so much complaining in my entire life.

I can understand their complaints about Lacerate and those were addressed in the recent hot fix that allowed it to work on bleed immune targets.

What I don't understand is how Druids think they have some god given right to have the best of every world. They complain about losing damage in bear form... well, I guess if that's such a problem, we should allow warriors to have more talent points, so they can keep up with the damage and tanking viability of the Dire Bear form. A druid in dire bear form could kill things... you ever see a prot warrior with a sword-n-board try to kill something? Unless he can spell reflect and have the mob practically kill itself, it's quite the boring fight .

Then I saw someone complaining about the nerf to Predatory Instincts (from 15% to 10% bonus to melee crits) severely affected their cat DPS. Well, I think they missed the memo that even on a 1000 point attack, they only lose 50 damage (1000 + 1000 * 1.1 vs 1000 + 1000 * 1.15). That's less than a 2.5% drop in damage. Rogues and Warriors saw more of a nerf from Attack Power bonus normalization than that.

It's one of the reasons I can't stand people that play hybrid classes... they have this insatiable desire that makes them think they should be better than the class that was designed for that role and that role only.

Then, there were Druids that complained that Cat form doesn't have the survivability in PVP. Well, oh mah god, does one understand what it's like to be a rogue now? We're only lucky enough that we get Blind, Vanish, Poisons and Parry and we can't heal ourselves. The day they give druids something akin to Vanish is the day it becomes worthless to be a rogue. Poisons don't even work on every mob to make it nearly as useful and Blind is a poison so it is affected by the type of mob. Although, I don't understand why druids can't parry in Dire Bear... I had a f'n Spider parry one of my attacks the other day... yes, a spider .

 

[rhk0327]

Their is a fairly large problem with a shadowpriest and warlock combo. You're grinding will be inefficient because of both's dependence on dot spells. Most creeps will die faster than the full duration of your dot spells. This will make damage/mana efficiency low.