X-Box vs PS2

[OneEng]

Good thread topic.

I work with both MS operating systems and what I consider "Embedded Real Time Operating Systems" or RTOS. The difference is profound. I can perform tasks with a microcontroller that is 1/1000th the speed of the same PC that would be needed. This is not to be taken lightly. Microsoft is attempting to compete in the embedded market with a port of a PC operating system. In my professional opinion, this will be a failure.

• MS operating system will easily make up for the difference in speed of the processors by being bulky.
• The PIII is a general purpose processor. The sony processor is specifically designed for the task of a game console.
• The Sony RTOS is designed specifically for an embedded system and is light and fast.

As for some of the arguements MS and others have made:
PS2 isn't as fast as XBox.
Doesn't need to be. It has a leaner OS and a processor specifically designed for a game console.

PS2 can't do as many poly/sec as XBox
Exactly how much detail are you going to be able to discern at sub 640x480 resolutions.... right! Again, on the PC this would be an advantage.

XBox has more RAM
PS2 doesn't need as much. It has a better RTOS.

I make this arguement every day at work. Don't try to make PC concepts work in embedded applications. You end up with the old code bloat mentality that says "Just get faster hardware and this will work". No matter how many times I hear it, it still sounds just as stupid.

I don't think XBox will fail. I simply think it will not be the success that Dreamcast and PS2 are going to be.

 

[Dark4ng3l]

Ok the way things work right now is that sega and nintendo are giving real world performance specs. Sony and m$ are trying to make stupid buyer see 150million poly's oh my god!. I dont think the x-box has enough bandwith to do this. The japanese consoles wil do better because of all their great games and their experiance with the market. Nintedo have great first party and second party developement teams witch are EXCLUSISIVE to them(the japanese developement team/the us developement team, rareware(goldeneye, perfect dark, Donkey kong) and others. Nintedo has Sigeriu Miyamoto. Nintendo has know game franchises that people know and that are fun(mario(childish but fun), Zelda(rocks) amongst others. The p3 is a multi purpose cpu designed for use in a personal computer. The emotion engine is designed specificaly for gaming perpusos and does not need to have the flexibility a p3 needs in a pc evironment. M$ will probably just buy 15 game companies(like they did with bungie) if they see people arent buying their console and force us to buy it since 50% of all games will be x-box exclusive. We all know M$ wil force their way into this market and we wil have no choice. M$ sucks.

 

[Zucchini]

"The PIII is a general purpose processor. The sony processor is specifically designed for the task of a game console.

The Sony RTOS is designed specifically for an embedded system and is light and fast."

Well if thats true why can't the ps2 run unreal tourney with a decent framerate? Currently this is the only game we can compare since there are ports for both pc and ps2 Somethings not right

 

[Dark4ng3l]

Since ut is a pc port witch runs realy weird and does not scale well with diferent hardware I guess it's just not ported well. Since the ps2 is radicaly diferent than just cpu and graphics card(vector units ext)

 

[Zucchini]

Well to be fair you can't just point your finger at m$. It seems that many games are exclusive to a certain system, i'm not sure if this is because of contracts or just a companies decision, but its not right. Sony is at the very least as bad as m$;P

 

[Dark4ng3l]

well most exclusive titles come from second party developers witch are not owned by the console makers and that are not forced to develop exclusively.Look at the playstation the only exclusive company they have is their in house developpement team. Square, Capcom, etc. are not forced to develop for anyone in particular.They can port their games to every console if they want to. Microsoft wil buy out the companies and force them to make their titles x-box exclusve, forcing us to buy the console if we want to play their games.

 

[PliotronX]

MS better make damn sure that the Xbox's internet capabilities will not have exploits to be used by wannabe hackers. I can just hear those punks now.. "damn 4 year old console gamers, I'll virus their Xbox's HD and earn me some respect!" The sort of attitude that little bastard 'nopcode' has towards Q3 gamers =\

Flaming with pure speculation is just plain silly, nobody here can tell the future (unless someone has a few hits of acid and a strange looking crystal ball in their garage). What I don't like, is how MS is touting the clock-for-clock CPU spec of the Xbox vs. PS2. That is sort of how Intel is touting their 2Ghz P4s.. it's just not gonna win. Actually, they do this to oo-ahh the illiterate console gamers into buying them, and unfortuneatly it does work =(

For now, I'll just stick with my PC and PSX. These console wars are just too expensive

But hey, there are modchips for PS2s already. I wonder when there will be burners for the 'mini-CD' type media the GC will use.. then there will be a modchip for that.

edit: potentially fatal typos

 

[Dark4ng3l]

One thing I would like to point out is that Gamecube wil be easey to program for, more powerful than ps2. Many developers like square stated that the ps2 is not as powerful as it should have been(the metal gear solid2 game esigner said this). Square and others are considering developing for other consoles as well more specificaly the Gamecube and Dreamcast. Gamecube wil have great games and I dont understand why people seem to be ignoring it's presence.

 

[PCResources]

<< Again, i push -- KERNEL. Win2k has all kinds of memory capabilities, and you will not see problems from &quot;bloat&quot; because it is so streamlined. The Windows2k kernel alone is very powerful and will be a perfect fit for the Xbox. >>



What kind of memory capabilities does the W2K KERNEL have that the CE doesn't?

There is more to this than just performance, first of all, everyone who uses a playstation today is waiting for the PS2, who is waiting for the X-Box?? PC users, i think not.

The speed of the CPU in the X-box is 733Mhz (and it's a PIII so we know what to expect), what do you think the speeds will be on a regular AMD T-bird by then, doubled maybe, maybe more, maybe a different CPU? Surely the PC will beat the X-box hands down.

As for the PS2 and it's 300Mhz CPU, if you create a CPU that is supposed to perform very well at few tasks, it will be a lot faster than a CPU that is built for the mainstream PC market.

Then there is the issue about the old PS games, which console will be able to play them?

I believe MS will loose this battle, and I'm not saying that just because i really dislike MS, which i really do.

Give me an Athlon powered console, with a graphics chip from Nvidia, memory from Micron, a DVD player from Pioneer and some sort of Unix kernel, and i might just buy it, just to have the good combination of hard and software in a little box.

Patrick Palm

Am speaking for PC Resources

 

[Zucchini]

bah, i just think people should wait till all 3 of the consoles are out then decide say.. when is the gamecube coming out anyhow? Anyways, blindly following sony isn't the smartest way to go

 

[RagingGuardian]

I'm gonna say it again, the only real winner would be Nintendo. The PSX sold way more units than the N64, yet Sony has failed to make the large profits that Nintendo rakes in each quarter. Many may argue that the Game Boy drives large sales but we should also realise that just about every game Nintendo publishes goes Platinum. Now, with a better medium and powerful machine, they have the ability to drive the machine more mainstream than the N64 ever made it.

How many copies have Gran Turismo sold worldwide compared to Zelda: TOOT with the PSX enjoying a way larger intalled user base? Nintendo fans are hardcore and if they build it, the fans will buy it.

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

<< Sony and m$ are trying to make stupid buyer see 150million poly's oh my god!. I dont think the x-box has enough bandwith to do this. >>

I cant say for sure, but i did state above that i had bandwidth concerns.

<< The p3 is a multi purpose cpu designed for use in a personal computer. The emotion engine is designed specificaly for gaming perpusos and does not need to have the flexibility a p3 needs in a pc evironment. >>

Agreed.

<< Nintedo has Sigeriu Miyamoto. Nintendo has know game franchises that people know and that are fun(mario(childish but fun), Zelda(rocks) amongst others. >>

Yes, that is why Nintendo will always be a player in the console arena. Sony does not have people that NEVER EVER will not go to another console. Nintendo will never develop for PS2, but Square could potentially jump ship.

<< MS better make damn sure that the Xbox's internet capabilities will not have exploits to be used by wannabe hackers. I can just hear those punks now.. &quot;damn 4 year old console gamers, I'll virus their Xbox's HD and earn me some respect!&quot; The sort of attitude that little bastard 'nopcode' has towards Q3 gamers =\ >>

DAMN fine point, although there will likely be no way to control what data goes on the harddrive directly, so there will be no way to get a virus on there. You will probably have a main menu selection that says &quot;update&quot; or something simular. You will select it, and it will go on to the game manufacturers website, get the files, and put them on the hard drive.

<< Well, Windows 9x supports 64mb of memory WELL. Win2k supports up to like a gig i think, well. Windows CE was created for palmtops with 16mb and under. If DC would have had 36mb, i think they would have gone with a different OS. >>

MS operating system will easily make up for the difference in speed of the processors by being bulky.[/i] >>

Oh goodness gracious. There will be ZERO BULK to the MS OS. PERIOD. IT IS A KERNEL. STRIPPED. I wouldnt doubt if the entire OS was under 2mb. WHERE IS THE BULK?

<< The Sony RTOS is designed specifically for an embedded system and is light and fast. >>

Microsoft will have an equivelent with the STRIPPED win2k kernel os.

<< Exactly how much detail are you going to be able to discern at sub 640x480 resolutions.... right! Again, on the PC this would be an advantage. >>

We've been at the 640x480 resolution since the beginning of console gaming, and youve seen power leaps. N64 to Dreamcast, look at the polygon characters... It will be the same with XBOX to PS2.

<< PS2 doesn't need as much. It has a better RTOS. >>

This statement is absolutely ludicrious. Game makers WANT MORE MEMORY. They have complained about the lack of memory. Having more memory is a huge advantage whether you like it or not.

<< You end up with the old code bloat mentality that says &quot;Just get faster hardware and this will work&quot;. >>

No, get faster hardware, make it easier to develop for (DIRECT-X for christ sakes), have far more features, (especially things like the hard drive and 4 controller ports), have double (if not quadruple, they are thinking of going to 128mb of memory) the memory, have broadband capabilities out of the box, and have far more support -- and it will work.

The only thing that can kill the Xbox is a horrible controller, they have everything else set up.

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

<< Nintendo fans are hardcore and if they build it, the fans will buy it. >>

Damned right, which is why Nintendo will always be a force in the console arena. My only worry is that this generation grew up with SNES, which is the greatest console of all time, and the newer generation (kids now) grew up with N64 and the Playstation. A lot of them will back Sony, but you are right -- Nintendo isnt going anywhere.

 

[Zucchini]

Well, couldn't that also be due to the n64 using cartridges? far harder to copy Many ppl with the psx just rent to own if you know what i mean

 

[Soulflare]

<< How many copies have Gran Turismo sold worldwide compared
to Zelda: TOOT with the PSX enjoying a way larger intalled user
base? >>



Actually, Gran Turismo has sold almost double what the Zelda 64
games have worldwide. I believe GT 1 &amp; 2 have sold somewhere in
the neighborhood of 13,000,000 copies while the two N64 Zelda
titles have sold about 7,000,000. Here's the stats from Japan
where both Zelda titles have been out for quite a while:

Sales of Gran Turismo 1 &amp; 2 in Japan : 4,500,000
Sales of Zelda TOOT and MM in Japan : 2,300,000
Source: Famitsu Monthly

It should be noted that while the PSX has a much bigger userbase,
major Nintendo titles face zero competition for their smaller but
still substantial userbase. If you've visited IGN64 you may have
noticed that every news story from the past three months has been
about Zelda: Majora's Mask, because there hasn't been another single
N64 game worth talking about since Perfect Dark, which came out in
July or August. If you own an N64 what the hell else are you going
to buy?

Nintendo fans are hardcore, nothing else can explain how a crapfest
like Superman64 can become million-seller in North America.

 

[Zeeliv]

<< I wonder when there will be burners for the 'mini-CD' type media the GC will use.. then there will be a modchip for that. >>



Here is where Nintendo has gotten smart as far as copy protection goes. Take note of how the Gamecube doesn't play music CD's or DVD movies? That isn't just because they wanted the box to be game-centric (and not just because of the size of the tray), the laser physically cannot read these formats, therefore games cannot simply be burned for them whether it be with mini CD-R media or mini DVD-R (which as far as I know doesn't exist right now, but I'm sure it will someday). The disks are proprietary and you will not be able to buy blanks, simple as that. The way people got around PSX/PS2 is simple, it uses CD/DVD inherently and was therefore simple. The DC: well they couldn't actually buy GD disks, so they got around it simply by the fact that one of DC's features is that it reads CD's (like music), and most of the games fit on a CD.

I'm not saying it won't be done, but would-be pirates are going to be much harder pressed to get around this one. I imagine devices similar to the N64 ones will be produced that connect to one of gamcube's ports underneath, but things like that aren't very cost effective.

 

[OneEng]

Seph,
There will be ZERO BULK to the MS OS. PERIOD. IT IS A KERNEL. STRIPPED. I wouldnt doubt if the entire OS was under 2mb. WHERE IS THE BULK?

You are obveously one of the PC types I previously mentioned that are not from the embedded background.

2Mb is not slim, it is ENORMOUS. A good embedded OS &quot;Stripped&quot; would weigh in at around 100-300Kb depending on the amount of perferial driver support pieces included (exe, the TCPIP stack is usually between 50 and 90K for any decent RTOS).

Microsoft will have an equivelent with the STRIPPED win2k kernel os

Win2k kernel isn't even a good PC kernel (compared to Unix or Linux). What makes you think that a poorly written OS (It doesn't even qualify as a true RTOS incidentally) for the PC will somehow be in the same universe with a true RTOS specifically designed for the platform it is running on?

If you take into account that Win2K is not as efficient as Linux, and that embedded Linux is about 100 times as bulky and 10 times as slow as a ground up designed RTOS (such as pSos) then it is quite obveous that any port of Win2K will end up inferior to the Sony RTOS by at least a factor of 10.

Has anyone ever wondered why the palm pilot is so successful? It uses its own OS instead of trying to make use of some variant of Windows. Palm can afford less expensive processors and less RAM and ROM than their competition that uses CE since they don't need as much power to compete. This results in a lower price point for the same performance and features.

I will preach this line here and at work until I die; PC tactics in embedded applications are a bad idea!

 

<< Before you freak out, realize the Dreamcast runs on a kernel of WINDOWS CE. If you think the Win2k Kernel is not 50x better, you are blind >>


The DreamCast does not run on the Windows CE kernel. That is totally false. Notice the little sticker on the DC says &quot;Windows CE Compatible&quot; not &quot;Powered by Windows CE.&quot;

Some games load WinCE instead of the slim Sega OS kernel. This is mainly for lazy American programmers who want to make a quick buck by porting shoddy PC titles to the DreamCast. Notice almost all of the DC games that run WinCE suck.

Regarding the Win2k kernel on the Xbox, IMHO dumb move #1. Dumb move #2, using an Intel processor. Here is a kernel and processor geared towards business applications. Lame, lame, lame, lame. The P3 sucks even on the PC. Why they did not go with a real RISC based processor is beyond me. It's a shame to see that hardcore NVida part sitting in the same system with a P3 chip.

You can strip the Win2k kernel down all the live-long-day for all I care and it is not going to be slim in comparison to a real embedded operating system. Going with the Win2k kernel is a dumb marketing move that is going to effect the overall performance of the Xbox.

XBox = XBob

 

<< They have publically said &quot;THERE WILL BE NO INSTALLATIONS OF GAMES. THERE WILL ONLY BE ADD ON PACKS FOR THE HARD DRIVE.&quot; >>


Not true. I was in a live chat with the head guy of the Xbob project just last week on msxbox.com. He went on and on about how he was talking to a developer who wants to make a game that you can drive all over Germany. He stated that this would be impossible on a standard console, but due to the hard disk on the Xbob all 400M of game data can be installed on the hard disk. He said something stupid like, &quot;try that on a PS2.&quot;

So, wrong again. They are using the hard disk for installs. I highly doubt that there is nothing stopping them from using it for installing &quot;patches&quot; as well. Leave it to MS to allow patchware to exist in the console market.

 

[bhuie]

Just a couple comments/questions on some of what OneEng has said:



<< The PIII is a general purpose processor. The sony processor is specifically designed for the task of a game console.

The Sony RTOS is designed specifically for an embedded system and is light and fast.
>>



Haven't we reached a state in console gaming where we are getting close to PC-like functionality and the bloat that goes with it? The original PSX was a MIPS variant, which is for all intents and purposes a general purpose processor that is now cheap enough to be used in embedded systems. I have a hard time believing that the PS2 OS is as small as some of the commercially available off-the-shelf RTOSs like VXWorks. But I don't have the details on it, so I could be way off here.



<< XBox has more RAM
PS2 doesn't need as much. It has a better RTOS. >>



A large majority of that RAM is going to be used up by game data, not the OS itself. I don't think the space you save by having less/more efficient queues/timers/whatever is going to make up for an extra 32MB of RAM.


I think Sony's main concern isn't the quality of its hardware, but marketing. The games that people can play will make or break either system. Microsoft has a lot of money to acquire good developers and it doesn't look like they are hesitant to use it. Not only that, but the PS2 is apparently a very difficult platform to develop on because of the 4MB of video RAM. If PS2 developers suffer delays in development or even unwillingness to spend the time to do it, then Sony could see problems.

 

[SSP]

Regarding the Win2k kernel on the Xbox, IMHO dumb move #1. Dumb move #2, using an Intel processor. Here is a kernel and processor geared towards business applications. Lame, lame, lame, lame. The P3 sucks even on the PC. Why they did not go with a real RISC based processor is beyond me. It's a shame to see that hardcore NVida part sitting in the same system with a P3 chip.

Cause Intel practically gave the CPU away for free (not free... but really cheap).

 

True, true.

Also I suppose it's because Win2k won't run on anything else.

 

[SSP]

yeah... I guess.

 

[Chad]

The OS for the Xbox is 150kb and it is on the DVD not on the hardware. So throw all your embedded theories out along with the hack into Xbox ones. You obviously are spouting off at something you have NO clue about.

Also, rest assured, there are NO memory bandwidth limitations. One can just peruse to Nvidia site and read the white papers and see how they are addressing this on the GPU side. Also, there is a RISC processor on the GPU and many many other things that I don't really care to go into now.

But rest assured, no half but part time hardware/software fanboy from some public forum is going to be clued in on why the Xbox will be limited and some of the software engineers in the world (MS) along with some of the best hardware engineers (Nvidia) would somehow miss some glaring bottlenecks or deficiencies.

THINK people. Sheesh.

MS haters just annoy me. Stupid.

 

<< The OS for the Xbox is 150kb and it is on the DVD not on the hardware. >>


Do you want to share where you got this information? Also, even it it takes up 150k on disk, there is nothing stopping it from allocating tons of system memory.



<<
But rest assured, no half but part time hardware/software fanboy from some public forum is going to be clued in on why the Xbox will be limited and some of the software engineers in the world (MS) along with some of the best hardware engineers (Nvidia) would somehow miss some glaring bottlenecks or deficiencies. >>


Assuming you mean to say &quot;best&quot; software engineers in the world when speaking of MS, how do you explain the overall lousiness of Windows CE???

- dwell (part time hardware/software fanboy)