xbox 360

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: southpawuni
I dont know why you guys are saying todays PC processors are more advanced.. no they arent. :disgust: I also dont see a unified GPU on the PC yet. You wont be seeing nearly as many objects on screen with full physics like you will on the PS3/360 anytime soon at all (triple core CPU anyone? Cell allows for crazy possibilities in physics and onscreen numbers).

They've been talking about producing a dedicated physics chip for PCs just so it can keep pace.

"Those 120 pixels" is actually more like 230,400 pixels, by the way.

3 cores means nothng when the cores themselves are weak.

#1: PC processors cores are more powerful, a single and dual core top of the line AMD/Intel processor is capable of much more than the Cell and XBOX360's processor.
#2: Game developers have specifically said that early on, most of the multi-core programming won't be strong, if existant in many games. Many games will be working on less than the full processor, which is already weaker than a PC processor.

Physics chips were in development for a long time now, and have nothing to do with consoles or PCs "keeping up".

Also, you bring up HDTV as if they are only made for consoles... newsflash, you can use HDTV for the PC as well. Not that that has anything to do with what I was talking about.

You're just looking for someone to flame, all I'm doing is telling it like it is. As far as raw power goes, it's on the PC. Does that mean consoles may not have more fun games? Hell no. Consoles may lead for gaming, depend on what your style is.

GPU means very little if it doesn't have a nice processor as well. AMD+7800GTX SLI can still beat either new console, even with inferior GPUs, because of the greater CPU.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Continuity28
GPU means very little if it doesn't have a nice processor as well. AMD+7800GTX SLI can still beat either new console, even with inferior GPUs, because of the greater CPU.

That's a strong claim to make considering neither the GPU or CPU for the Xbox 360 or PS3 has been released yet.

 

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Continuity28
GPU means very little if it doesn't have a nice processor as well. AMD+7800GTX SLI can still beat either new console, even with inferior GPUs, because of the greater CPU.

That's a strong claim to make considering neither the GPU or CPU for the Xbox 360 or PS3 has been released yet.

The developers have spoken...

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Continuity28
The developers have spoken...

In regards to your claim? Link?

 

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Continuity28
The developers have spoken...

In regards to your claim? Link?

You're new here? You know what I'm talking about...

Oh well, the price we pay for people removing articles.

But more to the point: consoles won't kill PC gaming because the PC is a multi-purpose platform. As long as people buy PCs to do any kind of work, game developers will make games for it. It doesn't matter if one day, consoles completely eclipse PCs in performance, even for a while, the developers will still make games for it.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Continuity28
You're new here? You know what I'm talking about...

Oh well, the price we pay for people removing articles.

I don't follow PS3 and Xbox360 consoles because I have little interest in them, until you said that PCs may actually be better. I never really paid attention to the AnandTech article on it. You mean Gabe and crew being lazy and saying multicore programming is such a PITA, wah wah wah etc? Their whining has nothing to do with the raw processing power (especially not bottlenecks). Besides haven't they said they would maybe in 2 years be able to harness the power? Don't get me wrong I'm all for the PC being more powerful (I'm not purchasing a console), but I thought that wouldn't happen in a million years. Consoles are dedicated, designed from the ground-up to be gaming devices whereas PCs are not.

 

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Continuity28
You're new here? You know what I'm talking about...

Oh well, the price we pay for people removing articles.

I never really paid attention to the AnandTech article on it. You mean Gabe and crew being lazy and saying multicore programming is such a PITA, wah wah wah etc? Their whining has nothing to do with the raw processing power (especially not bottlenecks). Besides haven't they said they would maybe in 2 years be able to harness the power?

Nope, nothing to do with Gabe. He's completely separate.

The article more or less said, according to the developers, the consoles would be much stronger if instead of the Cell/360 processor, you had a single or dual core AMD processor. It wasn't only about not being able to harness multi-core, it was also a complaint against the cores themselves being weak.

I have no doubt programmers will get better and better at multi-core code. Granted, not every operation can even be multi-threaded, but many, especially when dealing with video and audio can.

It's the combination that hurts. Having under-utilized cores due to difficulty writing multi-threaded code is one thing, but the issue gets compounded when the cores aren't AMD/Intel strength.

EDIT: Also, they have the ability to make a gaming platform that would annilhate everything, because like you said, they can build from the ground up. So why don't they? Cost. The consoles coming out, like all consoles, are being sold at below cost, but even the parts themselves are cheap in comparison to PC components, and they aren't as complex. They are able to compete precisely because they are built from the ground up. If they built a system with PC quality parts, it would blow away PCs at gaming, but the mainstream would never buy a console that costs $1,500.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Crap I typed out a great reply and somehow it didnt post and I lost it.. oh well.
Point is, even if a dual 7800GTX and a fast A64 matches a Xbox360 today.. you are still comparing a $2,500 rig (to play games?!) to a $300 console.. both being of roughly equal power, thats sad.
But games are designed for the median in PCland. Consoles dont have that problem.. they can count on whatever power is put into the PS3 ect from day1.. no need to design the game for a P3 with a GF2 GTS.
Theres not a single game out there designed for a 7800GTX SLI rig so the point is moot.. let alone the ridiculous price. Its about the worst price/performance ratio if you want to game. When even if you find a single game that can harness the power of that SLI rig.. you can find every single Xbox360 game on the market will use that new ATI chip immediately and it exploit it much better than a PC game will do for a 7800SLI rig.

Point on the HDTV is that its taken YEARS to get the American market to move to HDTV.. so to get everyone on a Dell 2405 for their PC like you have is going to take much, much longer.
Widescreen will work in every single 360 game. While people will probably be hacking alot of major PC game titles for years.. and ending up with reduced screen space just like BF2 in widescreen.

I'm just telling you like it is from a fair standpoint. I use a 2005FPW, I know about the distribution level of big, high res LCDs.. its less than HDTVs so that 1920x1080 difference compared to 1920x1200 doesnt mean much if no one even has a high res LCD, or widescreen on the PC platform for devs to design for.

PC gaming is losing ground quickly with the advent of HDTV and mouse/keyboards possibly on the next gen consoles. Add in this Xbox Live stuff, cordless headsets and other devices.. large widescreen HDTVs (or even small HDTVs, they are stil much higher res than the vast majority of people's PC screens).. and the PC is losing almost every advantage they've had for years in the gaming department.

Just telling you like it is.

 

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: southpawuni
Crap I typed out a great reply and somehow it didnt post and I lost it.. oh well.
Point is, even if a dual 7800GTX and a fast A64 matches a Xbox360 today.. you are still comparing a $2,500 rig (to play games?!) to a $300 console.. both being of roughly equal power, thats sad.
But games are designed for the median in PCland. Consoles dont have that problem.. they can count on whatever power is put into the PS3 ect from day1.. no need to design the game for a P3 with a GF2 GTS.
Theres not a single game out there designed for a 7800GTX SLI rig so the point is moot.. let alone the ridiculous price. Its about the worst price/performance ratio if you want to game. When even if you find a single game that can harness the power of that SLI rig.. you can find every single Xbox360 game on the market will use that new ATI chip immediately and it exploit it much better than a PC game will do for a 7800SLI rig.

Point on the HDTV is that its taken YEARS to get the American market to move to HDTV.. so to get everyone on a Dell 2405 for their PC like you have is going to take much, much longer.
Widescreen will work in every single 360 game. While people will probably be hacking alot of major PC game titles for years.. and ending up with reduced screen space just like BF2 in widescreen.

I'm just telling you like it is from a fair standpoint. I use a 2005FPW, I know about the distribution level of big, high res LCDs.. its less than HDTVs so that 1920x1080 difference compared to 1920x1200 doesnt mean much if no one even has a high res LCD, or widescreen on the PC platform for devs to design for.

PC gaming is losing ground quickly with the advent of HDTV and mouse/keyboards possibly on the next gen consoles. Add in this Xbox Live stuff, cordless headsets and other devices.. large widescreen HDTVs (or even small HDTVs, they are stil much higher res than the vast majority of people's PC screens).. and the PC is losing almost every advantage they've had for years in the gaming department.

Just telling you like it is.

All respected points, of course. I don't own a 7800GTX SLI system. I don't plan on it either. I do plan on buying these consoles though.

The one thing I can't agree on is that these consoles will kill PC gaming, mainly because people say that every time a new consoles comes out. It didn't happen 10 years ago, why now? I still think as long as people use PCs for working (which will be in all of the current forseeable future) and have a desire to game, developers will spend some time making games. There's money to be made, after all. Will PC games be better? That's up to the user of course.

 

[imported_Rampage]

I hope I didnt say that consoles are going to kill PC gaming.. I dont believe that if i said it.
I do think consoles are slowly starting to pull away the PCs advantages. A few of us have 1080 or better on our PCs.. but soon every home is going to have 1920x1080.. not too shabby and they dont have to go buy a new computer monitor to have that res.. it will be built right in their boob tube.

I do think PC gaming has a chance of dying, but not by consoles alone.. somehow.. someday they will put the screws to illegal downloads or at least illegal games. Thats a major problem and they do have success eventually against that.. pushign people towards DC++ or whatever new program to get illegal downloads. I personally think it will become more and more niche as the industry sees how much money they are really losing.

I have friends who havent bought their OS, their games, or any music. I do belive thats wrong, personally.. not that I dont have anything illegal on my PC. But I do buy my OS's and games (I dont play play that many anyway, just the AAA titles like Quake4/BF2 ect).
Music just sucks so bad.. they need to reshape their own industry, 5.1 cds or better music.. something. I dont have a whole lot of room in my heart for that industry and their woes.

But yeah.. PC gaming isnt going anywhere.. if nothing else it will evolve.. I personally have no problem with little shareware games.. and if thats all that we have someday i'll be happy.. I'm not a superficial graphics gamer. I'm interested in the 360/PS3 for the abilities the multicore CPUs bring out in number of onscreen enemies.. as well as the online services.. its all very good stuff.

Maybe we can actually get a co-op FPS on the consoles, cuz god knows I havent seen one on the PC since Quake1 or Serious Sam.
Played some Contra on the NES tonight and hope to get a PS3 so I can play the Contra that was released for the PS2.. coop goodness.. very fun.

 

[EvilComputer92]

You guys might want to check this out.

http://hardware.teamxbox.com/articles/xbox/954/SmartJoy-FRAG-Review/p5/

Smartjoy Frag. It's a thing that lets you connect your Mouse and Keyboard to your Xbox and configure all the keys. Not sure how well
it works though. I'm thinking of getting it to play Halo 2.

http://xbox.gamespy.com/articles/565/565000p1.html

 

[Sonikku]

Originally posted by: Continuity28
As far as the processor goes, today's PC processors are already more advanced than what's on the XBOX 360. As far as the video processing unit, that is still beaten by 7800GTX SLI... so 360 is already beat by PCs as far as raw power...

No doubt games will look fantastic, hopefully there's fun titles. 1920x1080 does not beat 1920x1200 though.

Actually, the pixels per inch would be the same. 1920x1080 is just a 16x9 aspect ratio where as 1920x1200 is a 16x10 aspect ratio. 16x10 is only a ratio computer monitors and certain LCD displays use to serve as a compromise between widescreen and computer resolutions.

 

[Auric]

Originally posted by: Sonikku
Actually, the pixels per inch would be the same. 1920x1080 is just a 16x9 aspect ratio where as 1920x1200 is a 16x10 aspect ratio. 16x10 is only a ratio computer monitors and certain LCD displays use to serve as a compromise between widescreen and computer resolutions.

All the better to view standard sized documents. Likewise the legacy 1280x1024 -although the extra "height" is meant for width when rotated ninety degrees. In the case of LCD panels with either of the queer aspect ratios (5:4 or 16:10), one dimension's resolution (fixed number of pixels) is shared with that of a standard 4:3 one so may be simpler (i.e. cheaper) to manufacture as well.

 

[Regs]

There is not one logical thought in my head right now why anyone would want a 500-600 dollar video card over a 300 dollar video game console with those specs. I have never been so frustrated in my life over how poor game developers have been performing in the past few months. Just one crappy game after another. Im still playing Rome Total War and I'm relieved that they still are releasing an expansion even though they got bought out by a company who does nothing but want to make console games.

Since then, there has been nothing but delays, cancellations, and rumors. We should be at the point where their should be a game of HL2's magnitude released every month. Instead, you wait every 8-12 months. Which is funny since more than half the members on this site upgrade every 6-8 months just to play one or two games.

I have concluded that PC's are nothing more than giant money pit.

 

[supastar1568]

Originally posted by: Regs
There is not one logical thought in my head right now why anyone would want a 500-600 dollar video card over a 300 dollar video game console with those specs. I have never been so frustrated in my life over how poor game developers have been performing in the past few months. Just one crappy game after another. Im still playing Rome Total War and I'm relieved that they still are releasing an expansion even though they got bought out by a company who does nothing but want to make console games.

Since then, there has been nothing but delays, cancellations, and rumors. We should be at the point where their should be a game of HL2's magnitude released every month. Instead, you wait every 8-12 months. Which is funny since more than half the members on this site upgrade every 6-8 months just to play one or two games.

I have concluded that PC's are nothing more than giant money pit.

i totally agree

i was gonna buy a 7800Gt but instead I pre-ordered the 399 dollar xbox 360 bundle.

very wise choice, as i am getting MUCH more for my money

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: Regs
There is not one logical thought in my head right now why anyone would want a 500-600 dollar video card over a 300 dollar video game console with those specs. I have never been so frustrated in my life over how poor game developers have been performing in the past few months. Just one crappy game after another. Im still playing Rome Total War and I'm relieved that they still are releasing an expansion even though they got bought out by a company who does nothing but want to make console games.

Since then, there has been nothing but delays, cancellations, and rumors. We should be at the point where their should be a game of HL2's magnitude released every month. Instead, you wait every 8-12 months. Which is funny since more than half the members on this site upgrade every 6-8 months just to play one or two games.

I have concluded that PC's are nothing more than giant money pit.

I am relatively unbiased between PC and console gaming. Even though in this thread many took me and having a console bias.

I really dont, but i AM fair and honest about the merits of both.

The giant money pit you speak of does not need to be a GIANT money pit.. you dont need a $1500 computer just to play the latest games.. you CAN scale down resolution, not use AA/AF.. and you dont need a 7800GT to play games either.

And with whatever amount of money you decide to put into your computer.. its infinitely more useful than a console.

A console is priced nicely, and plays great games. But thats ALL it will do.

At least that 7800GT would be getting used (even in minimal form) when not gaming when you are on AT forums, or if you do video editing work, or any professional use.

An Xbox360 is great for gaming, but to have a nice collection of games and accessories (4 controllers ect).. is going to add up to $1500 soon regardless. At least thats how much I would spend on games.. and they arent cheap games either ($60).
And no shareware gaming scene.
The one that birthed everythign we have today (see Doom).

Toss in the fact that the 360 wont allow you to write your paper for school, or your powerpoint for work and its in practice.. and extremely inefficient purchase beyond wasting time gaming.

Key lesson is to not compare a top of the line video card to a console. There are plenty of people out there gaming on GF4s still, and having a ball doing it. They dont concentrate on having 1920x1200 resolution gaming, AA/AF up the a$$, or all details on highest levels.


It seems to be the prevailing mentality that if you cant afford a top of the line PC with a 7800GTX and a dualcore CPU that you are better off with a Xbox.. I dont accept the premise.

 

[Therk]

A console is a poor mans PC.

 

[supastar1568]

is you can say that then...

i pc (for gaming) is for those with no friends

haha

i do both

 

[Tsosczb]

Originally posted by: Therk
A console is a poor mans PC.

Or so they're becoming.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: Tsosczb

Originally posted by: Therk
A console is a poor mans PC.

Or so they're becoming.

You will be doing your taxes on your Xbox360? Or doing web design? Or managing any networks? Doing digital artwork and photo editing? Video production? Writing a paper? Letting the kids or yourself check your email on it?
Or even just browsing the Drudge Report for the news?

I dont see them becoming anything at all but a gaming device. And at its peak it will deliver more ways to pay to watch media content like shows and movies. I see no educational value, or productive use whatsoever coming out of these machines.
A stark difference compared to a PC.

Thats why they are so cheap. They dont do anything. Nothing really worthwhile that is.

 

[secretanchitman]

xbox360 is just a "computer parts poser" console. its ONLY designed to play games, watch movies and etc. computers do all that and more. they're 2 different things...while MS is trying to push the 360 to become "the ONLY fun entertainment machine" in your house.

silly MS. you guys are screwing yourself with vista/longhorn and trying to make everyone do whatever you want us to do.

 

[Tsosczb]

Originally posted by: southpawuni

Originally posted by: Tsosczb

Originally posted by: Therk
A console is a poor mans PC.

Or so they're becoming.

You will be doing your taxes on your Xbox360? Or doing web design? Or managing any networks? Doing digital artwork and photo editing? Video production? Writing a paper? Letting the kids or yourself check your email on it?
Or even just browsing the Drudge Report for the news?

I dont see them becoming anything at all but a gaming device. And at its peak it will deliver more ways to pay to watch media content like shows and movies. I see no educational value, or productive use whatsoever coming out of these machines.
A stark difference compared to a PC.

Thats why they are so cheap. They dont do anything. Nothing really worthwhile that is.

Uhh, a lot of the things you mentioned are separate programs; it doesn't mean the hardware isn't there. Now they have hard drives, modems, keyboards, and whatever else, so you can do some tasks on a console that you would normally do on your PC. And haven't you heard that you can install Linux on the XBox? You can turn it into a media center, too, for whatever features that entails.

Originally posted by: secretanchitman
xbox360 is just a "computer parts poser" console. its ONLY designed to play games, watch movies and etc. computers do all that and more. they're 2 different things...while MS is trying to push the 360 to become "the ONLY fun entertainment machine" in your house.

They've all been doing that. All but Nintendo, that is. Nintendo isn't suffering from an identity crisis.

 

[Sonikku]

Originally posted by: Auric

Originally posted by: Sonikku
Actually, the pixels per inch would be the same. 1920x1080 is just a 16x9 aspect ratio where as 1920x1200 is a 16x10 aspect ratio. 16x10 is only a ratio computer monitors and certain LCD displays use to serve as a compromise between widescreen and computer resolutions.

All the better to view standard sized documents. Likewise the legacy 1280x1024 -although the extra "height" is meant for width when rotated ninety degrees. In the case of LCD panels with either of the queer aspect ratios (5:4 or 16:10), one dimension's resolution (fixed number of pixels) is shared with that of a standard 4:3 one so may be simpler (i.e. cheaper) to manufacture as well.

For games though, I prefer 16x9. 16x9 already isn't that much wider then 4x3 in my opinion, making 16x10 reduce the widescreen effect even more by adding more height. I'm starting to wish widescreen displays came in a 2.35:1 ratio.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: Tsosczb

Originally posted by: southpawuni

Originally posted by: Tsosczb

Originally posted by: Therk
A console is a poor mans PC.

Or so they're becoming.

You will be doing your taxes on your Xbox360? Or doing web design? Or managing any networks? Doing digital artwork and photo editing? Video production? Writing a paper? Letting the kids or yourself check your email on it?
Or even just browsing the Drudge Report for the news?

I dont see them becoming anything at all but a gaming device. And at its peak it will deliver more ways to pay to watch media content like shows and movies. I see no educational value, or productive use whatsoever coming out of these machines.
A stark difference compared to a PC.

Thats why they are so cheap. They dont do anything. Nothing really worthwhile that is.

Uhh, a lot of the things you mentioned are separate programs; it doesn't mean the hardware isn't there. Now they have hard drives, modems, keyboards, and whatever else, so you can do some tasks on a console that you would normally do on your PC. And haven't you heard that you can install Linux on the XBox? You can turn it into a media center, too, for whatever features that entails.

Uhh, so people can run out buy an Xbox360, go buy a Xbox360 compatible version of Quicken and do their taxes?
The hardware might be there, but its not very useful without the software. Nor the printer.
And, like MS said: Don't be counting on a hard drive for your software development.. so theres yet another blow to this nonexistent PC replacement.
They dont have 1/10th of the capabilities. Need a Quadro class video card for work? Can't pop it in your Xbox360. Need a firewire port for your digital camera? Oops no way to add ANY add-in cards to it.

Not to mention Adobe Photoshop is not programmed to work with a PS3.

Add all the functionality to a console to actually match the PC and you merely have created a cheap PC competitor.. with a massive task on its hands to take over the PC market that is extremely deep rooted.

Basically a 360, IF given the vast extensions it needs to do all of this stuff, would probably slow down as a result and become a much less appealing gaming platform for gamers AND devs.
You basically have something like the old Macintoshes (at best, at least Mac had popular useful software constantly available like Photoshop ect).


Its an uphill task taking on Intel, Dell and AMD with a PowerPC/ATI/NV powered box.. the market saturation of PC software is indomitable.

And MS is not going to kill their true cash cow, the PC market by putting the Xbox in direct competition with PCs.. and as stated, even if they wanted to it'd be an uphill battle in gaining software support and user acceptance.



So in conclusion, you are merely referring to a very small modder community putting Linux on their Xboxes.. and even those guys are probably using another PC right now reading this. Its a hobbyist thing, and it wont ever be anythign else for the reasons outlined in this post.


Your argument has been slain.
PCs, conquer, all.

 

[supastar1568]

you are getting more for your money by buying a console than by dropping loads of money into a PC. Period.

Xbox 360 is losing money on each console as it costs more to make each one than they are selling it.

My 400 dollars is really going toward something that cost probably around 500 dollars.

Where as if I buy a 400 dollar grapics card, it probably only cost 300-350 to produce as video card companies cant really make money off of games like consoles do.

You are getting more for your money by buying a console.


Me, I prefer both, equally.