xbox 360

[m21s]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Show me games on the PC comparable to God of War, Forza, GT4 or Resident Evil 4. The most avid gamer will own all the platforms. You really think there are anyone on these forums that don't run both consoles and PCs? We see reality, not some warped imaginary viewpoint, all the time. All of the platforms have their place, without owning them all you are certainly not in a point where you can offer honest analysis of what they have to offer.

AMEN! :beer:

 

[sparkyclarky]

Originally posted by: CCCHeel

Originally posted by: sparkyclarky

Originally posted by: CCCHeel
I'll buy a xbox 360 after a year or so, when the techies figure out how to mod them. Then I can just "back-up" all of my games, like I do now with my modded xbox.

Way to support the game developers you love!!!

I don't love any game developers, so I guess that doesn't apply...

Ah, so you're just one of those people that thinks they're entitled to another's work for free. Gotcha....

 

[Wag]

One platform to rule them all...

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: sparkyclarky

Originally posted by: CCCHeel

Originally posted by: sparkyclarky

Originally posted by: CCCHeel
I'll buy a xbox 360 after a year or so, when the techies figure out how to mod them. Then I can just "back-up" all of my games, like I do now with my modded xbox.

Way to support the game developers you love!!!

I don't love any game developers, so I guess that doesn't apply...

Ah, so you're just one of those people that thinks they're entitled to another's work for free. Gotcha....

If they can find a way, more power to them. It's not about who's entitled or not. Either way, one still has to buy the system, then get games from somewhere to be able to back them up. It's not the same as someone breaking into Best Buy with a black ski mask and taking an Xbox 360 + 10 games.

I'm assuming the R520 graphics logic for this system is integrated into the motherboard, is it not?

I might like to get this system later on. I haven't had a console since the Nintendo64, so I really miss my fighting/sports/action adventure games. I've been mostly into FPS, RTS, and RPGs for the past several years, which is why I've been doing the majority of my gaming on a PC.

 

[sparkyclarky]

Originally posted by: Avalon

Originally posted by: sparkyclarky

Originally posted by: CCCHeel

Originally posted by: sparkyclarky

Originally posted by: CCCHeel
I'll buy a xbox 360 after a year or so, when the techies figure out how to mod them. Then I can just "back-up" all of my games, like I do now with my modded xbox.

Way to support the game developers you love!!!

I don't love any game developers, so I guess that doesn't apply...

Ah, so you're just one of those people that thinks they're entitled to another's work for free. Gotcha....

If they can find a way, more power to them. It's not about who's entitled or not. Either way, one still has to buy the system, then get games from somewhere to be able to back them up. It's not the same as someone breaking into Best Buy with a black ski mask and taking an Xbox 360 + 10 games.

I'm assuming the R520 graphics logic for this system is integrated into the motherboard, is it not?

I might like to get this system later on. I haven't had a console since the Nintendo64, so I really miss my fighting/sports/action adventure games. I've been mostly into FPS, RTS, and RPGs for the past several years, which is why I've been doing the majority of my gaming on a PC.

No, it's not the same as stealing a physical product, but that doesn't make it any more right. Getting the games is a piece of cake for anyone with broadband. And Microsoft is losing money on each system sold. Buying it for the sake of playing pirated games (and those alone, as the poster I was referencing clearly is intending to do) is not good for the industry no matter how you spin it. The game developers lose out. Microsoft in particular takes a big hit in this scenario, as the business model is designed to lose out on the hardware but make it up in games and XBox Live subscriptions, which they clearly aren't doing when somebody is buying a system solely to pirate the games.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Preti9cboi
I wonder if it's possible to hook up the xbox 360 to my dell 2005fpw. heh

Sure, if not via DVI, then via component cables.

Originally posted by: scsi drv1
To say that the console selling dwarfs pc number is shearly a matter of statistics.

That's one way to state the obvious. The original Nintendo sold 50 million units. PS2 sold 80M. Have there even been 50M 3D cards sold? And console game sales are on another level from PC games.

 

[pulsedrive]

Just because I think this thread has kinda gotten off track from some of the original topic I am going to address something from back on page one. Actually MS will not have to sell at much of a loss or any depending on how things go, this is because this time around MS owns the rights to both chip designs that are going into the Xbox 360. In the previous version of the Xbox MS had to go to Intel and Nvidia respectively and pay them whatever price it was they felt like charging at the time and ditn' have a choice about it. The prices tended to get higher everytime. This go around MS can use competition between chip factories to keep the prices low, because frankly everyone will want to get the contract with MS for those chips. So the hardware price really isn't going to be a sticking point this time around with MS. Now as far as some have mentioned with wanting MUST HAVE titles, I agree, but I am hoping that Perfect Dark Zero will be out at the time of release, because DANG IT MS has been promising that one since they bought out RARE back in like 2001.

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: Pete

Originally posted by: Preti9cboi
I wonder if it's possible to hook up the xbox 360 to my dell 2005fpw. heh

Sure, if not via DVI, then via component cables.

Originally posted by: scsi drv1
To say that the console selling dwarfs pc number is shearly a matter of statistics.

That's one way to state the obvious. The original Nintendo sold 50 million units. PS2 sold 80M. Have there even been 50M 3D cards sold? And console game sales are on another level from PC games.

How many computers do you think there are working all over the world, as in single station desktops or laptops even?

Far more than any console i would imagine. And then there are CAD workstations and CGI workstations which have racks and racks of vid cards.

So at this point in time, i would say there are far more 3D cards in PCs than there are in consoles. Even if the 3D card is a Geforce 4 Ti4200 or a Radeon 8500 as they are still 3D Cards. And even if they are only in a bank managers desktop.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
also, if it is 48 pipelines, just remember that if next gen NV and ATI are 32 and are SLI'ed then you got alot more than 48... and then there is the possibility of DUal GPU cards in SLI for a total of 4. Counting out PC's is a bad IDEA.

I'm curious why you chose to capitalize the word "IDEA." I just can't imagine someone putting emphasis on that particular word in that sentence.

 

[carlosd]

q]Originally posted by: R3MF

Originally posted by: carlosd

Originally posted by: Skotos

Originally posted by: carlosd
PC will always be the ultimate game machine. Don't forget that. By the time when XboX 360 is released, There will be comparable video hardware for the PC. From there you can update the PC hadrware every year, doubling it's Graphics power , the Xbox 360 will remain with the same hardware for 4 or 5 years, and will become a piece of crap whitin two years when the PC will be graphically far superior.

and so will a pc if you dont upgrade

and plus lets see you pay $500 dollers for a comparable video card

and then another $500 for the cpus

im glad your rich because i know im not

I am not upgrading by now , because my PC will run games perfecly smooth at least for a one more year, then I will get a new video card for 300-350, wich will be superioir to the one from Xbox 360 wich will cost 500 minimun. Besides I have read in some sites that the Xbox 360 will only be able to deliver graphic performance similar to a X700 GPU, because the ATI GPU will be limited by the very little frame buffer even if it is emmbeded in the same chip. So it seems I won't even have to upgrade to have superior graphics in my PC than the Xbox 360, thats a shame! The same happened whe the original xbox was launched, it was supossed to have the ultimate geforce 4 Ti chip (it was more like a Geforce 3.5) and microsoft talked about how powerfull this cosole was going to be, surpassing PC graphics, but whe it was launched it wasn't able to keep with my Ti4200 graphics. The same will happen to the nexgen consoles. The PC gaming world is constantly evolving and never stops, cosoles worlds evolves every 4 or 5 years. The actual consoles like Xbox, PS2 and gamecube are crap, and doesn't deliver anymore saticfactory gamin experiences, they are in the limit, PC always will have the power to satisfy even the mos avid gamer.

think of it as a buffer. believe me, it will be a bazillion times better than a x700!
[/quote]

You sould read some apart from microsoft specifications. Microsoft is going to say that they will have the ultimate game machine, which is obviously not true. They say they have the best OS, please!!

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1591716&enterthread=y

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: Pete

Originally posted by: Preti9cboi
I wonder if it's possible to hook up the xbox 360 to my dell 2005fpw. heh

Sure, if not via DVI, then via component cables.

I'm hoping to be able to use DVI myself, if I do end up buying an Xbox360. (I've got a 2005FPW as well It doesn't have component inputs though, only the 2405 does..)

 

[carlosd]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

I dont know about that one, the reason pc technology of such a matter that we have now would not be here were it not to be for pc gamers so I not only include pc games but external gpus, any ram moduels rated over pc3200, and many other things.

Huh? First off- RAM faster then PC3200- it's nice that the PC has started to make some progress here but do you realize that the fastest PC available today still can't match the XBox's system bandwidth(the original XBox, not the XB360 which is significantly faster)? The fastest RAM available today can't come remotely close to the eDRAM utilized in the XBox360(250GB/sec) and widest data path available on PCs pales in comparisons to the PS2's 2560(two thousand five hundred sixty) bit wide data path for its GS to its memory. PCs are lagging behind consoles by a large margin.

For external GPUs- the first time ATi managed to field a truly class leading chip was when they had ArtX- a team that developed console parts- came up with the R300 for them. They had always been a second tier IHV until that point. The console industry provided them with the talent they needed to be competitive with nVidia. For nVidia- they started out in the console business too. The NV1 was the graphics chip utilized in the Sega Saturn- they have now been in every generation of 3D consoles from the beginning.

Besides I have read in some sites that the Xbox 360 will only be able to deliver graphic performance similar to a X700 GPU

The R500 core is more advanced then the R520- it is based around a lot of the technology that will be utilized in the R600. Very ignorant sites are likely looking at the fill rate of the chip and mistakingly assuming that because of the lower peak fillrate number it is somehow comparable to existing PC parts.

and microsoft talked about how powerfull this cosole was going to be, surpassing PC graphics, but whe it was launched it wasn't able to keep with my Ti4200 graphics.

That is interesting considering when the XBox launched the GeForce4 was still a ways from launching. You weren't comparing your Ti4200 to the XBox at launch for certain, the GF3 Ti500 was the highest end part available for PCs when the XBox launched.

The actual consoles like Xbox, PS2 and gamecube are crap, and doesn't deliver anymore saticfactory gamin experiences, they are in the limit, PC always will have the power to satisfy even the mos avid gamer.

Show me games on the PC comparable to God of War, Forza, GT4 or Resident Evil 4. The most avid gamer will own all the platforms. You really think there are anyone on these forums that don't run both consoles and PCs? We see reality, not some warped imaginary viewpoint, all the time. All of the platforms have their place, without owning them all you are certainly not in a point where you can offer honest analysis of what they have to offer.

Certainly still the original Xbox chip can`t keep up with the GF3 Ti 500. Even if the Xbox have the geforce 4 Ti engine. The Microsoft specs are inflated believe me. Besides you have o include in the price of the xbox 360 (surely more than 500) the cost of an HDTV set (whic still have much less resolution than a computer screen), it would be a waste with the low resolution of a normal TV set. Lots of apparent graphich power at 640x480, please!!!

Yes the original Xbox has higher bandwidth than an actual PC, but it still is crap compared to a low performance PC, so what? more numbers and inferioir performance. The xbox 360 need hig memory bandwith beacuse the frame buffer of the GPU is limited in size, and will have to use the main memory also for frame buffer and at the same time share this memory with the CPU subsystem. In the PC the buses are separated, having more than enough separate frame buffer for the videocard and separate CPU memory subsystem. Besides the athlon 64 has the integrated memory controller which leads to a very low latency which is in some situations more important than bandwidth. You don't know what are you are talking about, the bandwidth needed by a system is dependant on the architecture, and obviusly the CPU subsystem of the xbox is completely different from the PC.

There are plenty of games on PC that are comparable or better than those games, also the PC allows to play all kind of games. I don't see myself playing C&C or Warcraft or half life 2 (one of the best games in the history of videogames, while the most popular game for Xbox is Halo (also having an improved version for PC), which is a piece of crap) in a console with crappy gamepad (I can use a game pad in my PC also), also it is hard to find a console game without it's PC improved version.

 

[imported_X]

It's all about software and interface, not hardware per se. I can't play Everquest 2 on the Xbox 360, nor would I want to move from my desktop to do so.

 

[Vernor]

Are the games patchable ? Moddable ?


In other words, forget about it.

 

[Munky]

Personally, I'm waiting for PS3. But I have no doubt that the xbox360 if it becomes available this fall will be more powerful than any PC for at least half a year. A year or 1.5 years from now, the R600 or gf8 might be out, dual core cpus will be available, and the physics processor might become available, only then will you have equal or better hardware on the PC. But eventually, the PC's always catch up and surpass consoles, it's only a matter of time.

The question is, how much do you really need? I'm sure a high end PC that you might buy when the xbox360 is out will not be as powerful, but it should definitely run the latest games with all eye candy at acceptale fps. As long as it does, who cares if the xbox360 is faster?

 

[stelleg151]

Originally posted by: Wag
One platform to rule them all...

hahahaha

 

[carlosd]

Originally posted by: munky
Personally, I'm waiting for PS3. But I have no doubt that the xbox360 if it becomes available this fall will be more powerful than any PC for at least half a year. A year or 1.5 years from now, the R600 or gf8 might be out, dual core cpus will be available, and the physics processor might become available, only then will you have equal or better hardware on the PC. But eventually, the PC's always catch up and surpass consoles, it's only a matter of time.

The question is, how much do you really need? I'm sure a high end PC that you might buy when the xbox360 is out will not be as powerful, but it should definitely run the latest games with all eye candy at acceptale fps. As long as it does, who cares if the xbox360 is faster?

Exactly, that is the point. That is why the PC always will be the ultimate game machine. The Xbox 360 might be faster (that is something we still have to see) , but for how long?? 3 or 5 months? . Remember that ATI's main bussines is in the PC world. Also nvidia will have something to counter ATI.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Drayvn
How many computers do you think there are working all over the world, as in single station desktops or laptops even?

All of them ready to game? I doubt it. You release a PS2 game (properly localized), you have 80M potential sales. I don't think you can say the same of a PC game.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: carlosd
Certainly still the original Xbox chip can`t keep up with the GF3 Ti 500.

In what sense? Remember that the Xbox was geared toward low-res SDTVs, and PC video cards of the time were geared toward high-res CRTs. It'd probably be a tight race b/w an NV2A and NV25 with the same memory size and speed.

Even if the Xbox have the geforce 4 Ti engine. The Microsoft specs are inflated believe me.

All specs are inflated. I'm not sure why you think console specs are more inflated than PC specs.

Besides you have o include in the price of the xbox 360 (surely more than 500) the cost of an HDTV set (whic still have much less resolution than a computer screen), it would be a waste with the low resolution of a normal TV set. Lots of apparent graphich power at 640x480, please!!!

If you're going to include the retail price of an HDTV with an Xbox360 (surely NOT much more than $300), then why not include the price of a monitor with a PC video card?

Xb360 is targeting 1280x720 as its primary resolution. That's pretty close to the current "standard" PC res of 1024x768 or 1280x1024.

You don't know what are you are talking about, the bandwidth needed by a system is dependant on the architecture, and obviusly the CPU subsystem of the xbox is completely different from the PC.

Ben doens't need me to defend him, but, from what I've read from both of you, I think it's safe to say Ben knows better than you what he's talking about.

t is hard to find a console game without it's PC improved version.

The main improvement of a console to PC port is higher resolution (and maybe higher-res textures). With the Xb360 aiming at 720p (and apparently allocating 256MB to the GPU), that's no longer a point of differentiation. As for game types, the main differences had to do with interface, storage, and connectivity. The Xb360 has a HD like a PC, it has internet connectivity like a PC, and it'd be easy enough to give it a keyboard and mouse. So you may well see your preferred genres as easily on an Xb360 as on a PC (and maybe from a more comfortable position: your couch).

Yeah, PCs will catch up to Xb360 in a year or two in terms of raw power. But you'll pay more, in terms of both time and money, to beat a $300 console. And developers will be able to code closer to the hardware of a console simply b/c it's a known, fixed target, therefore extracting greater efficiency from what it's got. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing, or why you feel the need to denigrate consoles.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Certainly still the original Xbox chip can`t keep up with the GF3 Ti 500.

What exactly leads you to believe this? Feel free to discuss it on any level and explain what elements keep the NV2A from being superior to the NV20.

The Microsoft specs are inflated believe me.

Why would I believe you? Why wouldn't I believe the specs listed by the parts suppliers and the manufacturer?

Besides you have o include in the price of the xbox 360 (surely more than 500)

This shows your level of ignorance more then anything else in your post. There is no chance that the machine will cost more then or even $500 even.

the cost of an HDTV set (whic still have much less resolution than a computer screen)

1920x1080 is a decent amount higher resolution then most computer monitors. It's lower then my monitor, but certainly higher then most.

The xbox 360 need hig memory bandwith beacuse the frame buffer of the GPU is limited in size, and will have to use the main memory also for frame buffer and at the same time share this memory with the CPU subsystem.

The eDRAM on the R500 utilized in the XB360 is plenty large enough for the back buffer, which is where all you major writes/reads are dealt with in terms of framebuffer, with room to spare for some texture cache running HDTV resolutions. This pool of ram has 250GB/sec bandwidth.

the PC the buses are separated, having more than enough separate frame buffer for the videocard and separate CPU memory subsystem.

Amount of RAM != bandwidth.

You don't know what are you are talking about, the bandwidth needed by a system is dependant on the architecture, and obviusly the CPU subsystem of the xbox is completely different from the PC.

I don't know what I'm talking about? You explain to me how it isn't a staggering performance advantage to have eDRAM running at roughly a quarter TB/sec versus the PC parts extremely limited bandwidth. You explain how having a UMA is not superior to segmented memory pools in a gaming application. Explain how reading and writing data to numerous pools of data across the system is a benefit and requires less bandwidth then a UMA. Obviously the XB's architecture is completely different then PCs, it needs considerably less bandwidth for comparable performance- even though it has considerably more.

There are plenty of games on PC that are comparable or better than those games

Name them, I'll write out a brief list-

Forza Motorsports
Gran Turisimo 4
God of War
Resident Evil 4

You go ahead and find something comparable on the PC to those titles. Post the names of the games.

I don't see myself playing C&C or Warcraft or half life 2 (one of the best games in the history of videogames, while the most popular game for Xbox is Halo (also having an improved version for PC), which is a piece of crap) in a console with crappy gamepad (I can use a game pad in my PC also), also it is hard to find a console game without it's PC improved version.

Use consensus and Halo is one of the best games ever made(according to GR.com). Your oppinion is in the minority. It is VERY easy to find hundreds of games for the consoles that aren't on the PC- if you have the slightest bit of problem with it I have to wonder if you have ever walked in to a gaming store.

 

[doublejbass]

Beautifully flawed argument tactics being pit against you, Ben.

I don't agree that Halo is one of the best games ever made, (which are, for the record, in no particular order..... Super Metroid, Tetris, LoZ: Ocarina of Time, Castlevania: SotN, and Street Fighter 2 ), but your points are valid of course.

 

[ryanv12]

My two favorite types of games are Strategy and FPS. That almost makes me forget consoles already. Also, a gaming computer costs a lot more, but it also does all the normal computer functions which are essential. If you are going to buy a $300 console, you still need a computer, albeit not as powerful. Both PCs and consoles have their own little niche, even strictly in gaming. I'll hang onto my computer.

 

[Emultra]

I don't have any console. I'd have nothing against owning either the new Xbox or the PS3, but I've been out of the console arena for so long that I wouldn't know which games to get. I know about Final Fantasy, and that's good, but not very much more.

 

[raystorm]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
God of War
Resident Evil 4

You go ahead and find something comparable on the PC to those titles. Post the names of the games..

There are none. Those two excellent games are good examples of why I play console games as much as pc games. Obviously someone who prefers FPS, RTS and sims will always prefer the PC just like someone would prefer a console for fighters, sports, platformers, japanese style rpg's...etc. Why cant people just figure out that games play what they like and prefer a platform that best gives them those type of games?? Is it so hard to figure out??

As usual every thread that mentions the Xbox 360, PS3, Revolution..etc..will all turn in the typical and very fruitless "pc vs console" debate. There is no damn debate..just play what you like and thats it. I think you folks who continue these debates just enjoy defending your favorite platform and thats it as nothing ever comes out of pc vs consoles but fanboyism.

 

[Auric]

As swell as the graphics system is, it shares 512MB RAM with the system so is likely not suitable for modern PC games that require 1024MB to prevent degradation from paging.