Xbox vs Playstation 2

[Killbat]

Passing thought: the very idea that the Cube will launch with no less than five Nintendo house titles is grounds for me to move to Japan so's I can get at it this summer.

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

<< Passing thought: the very idea that the Cube will launch with no less than five Nintendo house titles is grounds for me to move to Japan so's I can get at it this summer. >>

Dont be so dramatic, little one You know youre going to import one


I really think Nintendo has a nice box on their hands here. They have 8 textures to Xbox's 4 per clock. But my question is, do they have HSR? (No sarcasm for once, I'm asking a legit question )If they dont have HSR, having Embedded memory for the graphics chip isnt going to do a whole lot. The only worries I have for GC are:

1) Load times. With such a small disc, the load times are going to be horrible. They cant put the load files to the outside of the disc (a la PS2/DC) or load them to the hard drive for future loads (Xbox)...

2) Kiddy games? With hearing that Conker's Quest will be a Mature game (could have knocked me over with a feather) I think they are making progress. In the future I expect them to be just slightly behind Sony in gore and maturity levels, although they will have the Kids lineup there for sure... You cant expect Mario to be full of gore, can you?

Other things that are discouraging, but not huge worries:

1) Paying for connectivity. You want broadband, you have to buy the adapter.

2) No hard drive, but that is not a huge deal. Xbox is going to have a big advantage here, but this doesnt mean you wont have a hell of a lot of fun with your GC.


Basically the only thing Nintendo has on Xbox is 8 textures per clock rather than 4. They both have 8 lights, they both have nice sound chips, (with the nod going to Nvidia's Xbox chip for 256 voices) and they both have seemingly nice controllers. In more detail about the controllers, you know that Nintendo's is going to rock. Xbox has the sidewinder team working on theirs, and i personally do not like any of the Sidewinders. I don't see MS letting loose with a sub-par controller, quality control wouldnt let it happen, but it is something to look at. Xbox has a controller advantage though, having 6 buttons on the face for fighting games. (Something sorely lacking on the DC)

2nd party developers:

Sony: Squaresoft.
Nintendo: Rareware.
Microsoft: Bungie.

I'm worried about this. Rare and Square are the best in the biz, and MS has Bungie... Something to look at.


So far from what i have said, you are probably thinking that Nintendo has a huge advantage. This is not the case, though. Microsoft has a couple aces up their sleeve. To start, an 8gb hard drive. They can load textures to the hard drive instead of streaming them from the CD. They can load game files to the hard drive on the 1st time you play the game, and then have nearly no loading for every time you play the game from there on out; they can have downloadable new levels from the game's creator. (Imagine this - 6 months after Goldeneyes release, you get new multiplayer modes and three new maps. All this is going to do is add PURE REPLAY VALUE.) Then, you get instant network lovin. Hook up to your cable internet, and boom, you have online gaming. Talk about more replay value. You get Halo the day it comes out, and you play it for a week. You get stuck on a mission. Do you put the game down and play something else, or do you link up to the web and start playing deathmatches? Hell, while youre at it, ask for some help with that puzzle you cant beat...


When it comes down to hardware, the Gamecube probably has the best processor of the three big players. 400mhz .18um copper IBM PowerPC chip. RISC lovin, straight in your console. Think advanced G4 400mhz against P3 733mhz. All the Sony fanboys are going to come in screaming, but noone can tap all the power out of the emotion engine. Its broken into three pieces, and getting them to run in sync is something noone will be able to do completely. And why should someone have to? As a developer, you should be able to write code and let the machine eat it up. This is something that Xbox and Gamecube will be able to do. Here's an analogy - Dreamcast removes hidden surfaces with tiling. What if the developers had to code to make the hardware tile instead of it doing it itself?

Big N learned its lesson with the N64. You dont make a hard to develop console, period. Xbox has Direct X 8, something that can be monkied with as we speak. This is obviously the best method. A tried and true powerful code API only for Xbox. Nintendo supposedly has simple coding for its Cube. Playstation 2 is a nightmare. Why do you think we only have a few good games so far? Square and EA will be able to tap the power, but very few others will be able to. This means you will have console selling games, but no others. You can only play your Final Fantasies so many times... With easy coding like the Xbox and GC have, the AVERAGE game will be much better. You have tons of GOOD games, a good amount of stunning ones, and only a couple stragglers.


Gamecube will be able to compell and excite, but Xbox will probably take the crown. With 160 developers already signed up and mindblowing amounts of developer kits sent out, games will be streaming in like mad. With Direct X 8's simplicity behind the games, most will be good, and houses with talent will be able to create those games that stifle you - the games that you think about playing while youre at work. You LOOKED FORWARD to booting up Final Fantasy 7 while you were taking care of your business. If FF7 wasnt one of the ones you daydreamed about playing, substitute one of your favorites in... Resident Evil maybe?



Here is one of the killers, though. COST.
GC will run you $200 from the start, and fall to $150 within 6 months most likely. X will go for $300 to start, probably dropping to $250 later on. Xbox will have internet play, internet/hard drive enhanced replay value, and for $20, DVD playback. To me, that is worth the extra $100. What about all the other people though? I know my parents bought my brother a Dreamcast for Xmas, not a PS2. He got an extra controller, two games, (plus my library *cough cough*) and a VMU for less than the cost of the PS2 alone. When it comes around to Christmas time, will the kids be getting a Xbox with nothing or a GC with another controller, a game, and a memory card?

Then again, all we are doing is speculating.

 

[juggalo4life]

OK, the reason that playstation beat out nintendo the last few years is a simple one. People are stupid. There it is. There are at least %80 of the population that go to public schools, and dont score above a 15 on the ACT. They are stupid. That is why they accept inferior quality products from sony, because the cleaver bastards are all marketing majors. They can easily take advantage of the weak minds of society, and say &quot;Hey boys and girls, you may not even like video games, and if you do it doesnt matter which counsel is better, because ours is cooler! Thats right, dont think for yourself, just listen to the hype. Because some guy, some where, at some time said it is better, you need to buy a playstation to be normal and cool, and if your not cool, you will have no friends!!&quot; so there it is. More stupid people in the world=more sony sales.

 

[A5]

Wow. I din't think some Nintendo fanboys were as bad as Sony's. Guess I was dead wrong.

Anyways, a hot rumor in the GC community right now is that the Gekko processor may have AltiVec built onto it. If you don't believe in Nintendo right now, just wait until E3 my friends...

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

AltiVec would help GameCube quite a bit in some situations... Gamecube - now with PHOTOSHOP! Heh.

 

[JayPatel]

haha im reading the post by the Nintendo fanboy who posted all those links earlier....big deal that xbox, ps2 was downgraded....what consumer console has never been downgraded.....anyways u do remember the N64 and the specs the bloody thing promised..i recall a CES tradeshow where Nintendo showed promising gameplay from an extrememly realistic game supposedly running on actual n64 hardware....yeah what happened when EGM lifted the skirt underneath the table revealing a bloody $20000 graphics workstation....Project Reality my ass!

Puhhlease...sacrifice me oh great one cause i too have exposed the Sins of Prentendo. as ive said im not a nintendo fanboy, im a gaming enthusiast, and ill go wherever the best games go. too bad my beloved DC is running on what seems to be borrowed time. that one was hell of a gaming machine.

 

[pg22]

<< PS2 doesnt stand a chance >>



Look at these new pics of GT3, and tell me the same thing

http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/gt3/gt3rain_4.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/gt3/gt3rain_3.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/gt3/gt3rain_1.jpg

And remember, there's Metal Gear Solid 2 and Final Fantasy 10 coming, among other games...I think to say it doesn't &quot;stand a chance&quot; is a gross sensationalization.





<< ForeverSilky, that statement makes you look dumb. Really dumb >>



No, it just shows that there is direct correlation between the rather incredible rise of Dreamcast's popularity in the last 6 months to the fact that hackers found a way to piarte games on the system. If you ignore this fact, and how it also helped the PSX, you are being naive.

 

[SSP]

Yes, GT3 looks amazing, but as I said before, those graphics can be pushed with any one of next generation consoles. 3 games will not make PS2 the market leader (it certainly will help a lot).

 

[Imported]

Glad I got GT3 on pre-order!!

 

[Killbat]

&quot;Load times. With such a small disc, the load times are going to be horrible.&quot;

Actually, load time is one of Nintendo's top priorities. They used carts for the N64, for chrissake. I wouldn't worry about Big N pulling data off those discs, they're going to make it happen.

[edit] Ah, yea, those GT3 shots look really nice, but there's no way that game could carry the system on its shoulders. Besides, as far as eye candy goes, those shots only reveal that they've figured out how to do a &quot;neato wet road effect&quot;.

Seph, the GameCube hardware is much more innovative than a souped-up PowerPC. The GameCube architecture is nothing short of nifty. The idea that the graphics/sound chip is the CPU (not the Gekko) just screams &quot;play me&quot;! It's undeniable that Big N is all about the games. No doohickies.

 

But the hardrive makes the load time and the capabilities for addons, save games and ultra fast loading. Its like having a massive memory card, with many more capabilities

 

[Killbat]

Yea, like noise, heat, power consumption, and fragility!



[edit] Seriously, though, I'm not convinced that a HDD in a console is a good idea. My main man juggalo (seen raving in this very thread) had a SegaCD that he dropkicked down his basement stairs twice, and it survived. Don't think the Xbox could take that!

 

AHAHAHAHAHHAH
man talk about a beating.
I still have my original nes from 85.
Its been everywhere, up and down a few flights of stairs
Had stuff spilled all over it,
its still ticking kinda.

 

[A5]

Good points, but that would make development for the XBox a lot more PC-like. Let's take this scenario(completely made up):

Corporate Suit: How's the game going?
Developer: We're not done.
Suit: Hmm. Too bad. You guys got 2 weeks to finish, and after that, it's going gold.
Dev: What if we aren't done?
Suit: Just take all the stuff and fixes you couldn't add, and then we'll call it an 'Addon' or 'Expansion Pack'. (In suit's head) Ka-ching!
Dev: Whatever.

While I'm not saying that this would happen, it is generally not how things are done for consoles. They go more like this(or at least the good companies):

Suit: How's the game going?
Dev: We're not quite finished, but we don't think we can hit our current release date.
Suit: Hmm.
Dev: If you don't give us more time, the game will suck and you won't sell many games.
Suit: Dasm)). I'll see what I can do about the release. How much time you think you need?
Dev: An extra week or two.
Suit: Better be worth it.

Now while this is a more ideal enviroment for a developer, I'm sure it doesn't go like this unless you're at a place like Rare or Nintendo, which have been known to delay games for a long time. A problem I see with the XBox is that some of the PC developers may not understand that you have to get it right the first time on a console. I honestly think that there will patching on the XBox, but they may hide it under another name, such as 'addon'.

 

[Optimus]

You know, I don't bother debating about the console war over at the IGN boards because the kiddies get thier panties all in a bunch and start with the screaming. Looks like the same goes on here, too.



Seph: Where to begin, where to begin...



<< Woo-freaking-hoo. PS1 had like an 80% market share when Nintendo came in with a machine that was incredibly difficult to develop for, expensive due to cartridges, and a 3DO would run you $600. It was a toy that you played with at Fred Meyer, not something you took home. >>



My point was that power does not make the console. You state the reasons that, despite more power than the competition, caused those consoles to fail. You are simply reinforcing my point - that power does not guarantee victory for a console.



<< Apples and oranges eh? How so? The machine is 3x the power of the PS2. Game design is all that matters, and obviously 160 developers with past experience will not be able to create compelling games. And THEY are trying to talk f*cking apples and oranges? Youre trying to compare a full operating system that is 200MB to one that weighs in at 400Kb. >>




Again - did you even try to refute my argument in that? &quot;The machine is 3x the power...&quot; - who fed you that? 3x the power how, exactly? Raw polygons? Physics? Please back up that claim with something. And those 160 developers are the same bunch producing the current PC games - some great stuff, plenty of crap. Notice many games like Giants:Citizen K. need massive PC capabilities? GAME DESIGN! Its more than graphics - its manging your memory constraints, graphics, etc to generate a good FINAL PRODUCT on screen. Nothing else matters for what you see than how it finally appears on the TV - not poly count, not texture numbers...
You compare poly count, &quot;bits&quot;, etc - apples to oranges. Look at the games, even screenshots. Why haven't I seen anything that blows the pants off the DC or PS2?



<< Yeah, every game that came out for SNES or PS1 were masterpieces. You know goddamn well that only 10% of games are good games. Look at the freaking crapware for PS1, its nearly sickening. Even franchise games such as Twisted Metal games have gone from good fun games to choppy gameplay-sacrificed-for-eyecandy coasters that you only play because of the hype. >>



Yes - much of it is crap. The higher the percentage of quality software compared to crap, the better. It also means that in a sea of &quot;me-too&quot; ports, an original title will be even more necessary to a console's success. Sega, Nintendo, and even Sony can do that. Can M$?



<< Oooh, so lets get an add on hard drive for your PS2 that will be supported by only 5 companies. Fun! Theres more cash! >>



I hate the add-on idea. Bad move for Sony, I think.



<< DVD costs $20 extra so it will save you nearly $50 on console price. (By taking away DVD/Mpeg2 licensing fees) >>



My point is that they needed to shave even that licensing fee off - and still are indicating that the console will cost more than the PS2. Not good news.



<< Controllers and mice are extra for EVERY CONSOLE, wtf! And we all know that the PS2 USB is exactly spec, not proprietary. Sigh, did you just come in and try to nef this? >>



PS2 can use regular USB keyboards, mice, etc... as for Xbox:

From DailyRadar -
&quot;Non-Standard USB Controller Ports.
Okay, sure -- the lack of standard USB ports definitely decreases the odds of someone plugging in an alternate control device that may or may not be supported by the software. However, it also makes it appear that Microsoft, like every other company, wants you to buy new, Xbox-stamped peripherals rather than using the ones you already have (shades of Sega's Dreamcast-specific keyboard and mouse). And that just seems like a crappy thing to do.&quot;

Also, go to dailyradar and look at the pics - or the latest issue of EGM - and look for a standard USB port. Let me know when you find one.

At least PS2 meets a middle ground with both controller ports AND normal USB.




<< Xbox supports HDTV resolutions, meaning you can hook it straight to your monitor. >>



I'm sure both gamers who can afford one right now will enjoy that.



<< And all games for Xbox will be on PC? Are you out of your mind? Do you seriously think that we can run games like they can? >>



Yes - almost all Xbox games will release on PC. Why on earth wouldn't they?



<< We have things called bottlenecks, consoles do not. >>



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You didn't mean that, did you? Come on! You're just pulling my leg, right?


Anyway, as I said, this debate risks going the way of all console debates - into screaming fanboy fits. If anyone wishes to debate this logically like adults, let me know.



/Edited to fix broken tag

 

[pg22]

Say it with me now people....nice and slow....


It's all about the games......*















*Note: This requires common sense, and maturity. If one cannot understand the above statment, please try back again in a few years.

 

[AMDJunkie]

JayPatel, yes, I will admit, Nintendo screwed up big time in the past. It pumped out totally hyped numbers, CG pictures claiming to be from the machine, and many broken promises. Yet what companies today have/are pumping out huge, unreal theoretical numbers, hyping not-so-revolutionary hardware and features, and have/are set to break many pre-release promises when people realize that their golden console is another N64? Hope you like S&amp;M.

 

[juggalo4life]

I hate it when people REPOST what someone else already said. WE KNOW WHAT WE SAID AND DONT NEED YOU TO REPEAT IT!!! that is all

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

<< Actually, load time is one of Nintendo's top priorities. They used carts for the N64, for chrissake. I wouldn't worry about Big N pulling data off those discs, they're going to make it happen. >>

It is true that the Big N is worried about it, but the fact of the matter is that with the media they are using, they are putting themselves at a huge load time disadvantage. You know I am speaking the truth, bud

<< << Woo-freaking-hoo. PS1 had like an 80% market share when Nintendo came in with a machine that was incredibly difficult to develop for, expensive due to cartridges, and a 3DO would run you $600. It was a toy that you played with at Fred Meyer, not something you took home. >>

My point was that power does not make the console. You state the reasons that, despite more power than the competition, caused those consoles to fail. You are simply reinforcing my point - that power does not guarantee victory for a console. >>

None of my other reasons, all cleanly explained, are coming up in your quotes... Why not? How about the hard drive, how about their development tools, how about their API, how about their integrated 10/100, how about having 160 developers signed already? Seriously now, I think we all know that X is not a one sided console, yet all you quote is that &quot;power does not make a console,&quot; a once sided argument. If you are going to make valid arguments, you have to make them on all fronts.

<< << Apples and oranges eh? How so? The machine is 3x the power of the PS2. Game design is all that matters, and obviously 160 developers with past experience will not be able to create compelling games. And THEY are trying to talk f*cking apples and oranges? Youre trying to compare a full operating system that is 200MB to one that weighs in at 400Kb. >>

Again - did you even try to refute my argument in that? &quot;The machine is 3x the power...&quot; - who fed you that? 3x the power how, exactly? Raw polygons? Physics? Please back up that claim with something. And those 160 developers are the same bunch producing the current PC games - some great stuff, plenty of crap. Notice many games like Giants:Citizen K. need massive PC capabilities? GAME DESIGN! Its more than graphics - its manging your memory constraints, graphics, etc to generate a good FINAL PRODUCT on screen. Nothing else matters for what you see than how it finally appears on the TV - not poly count, not texture numbers...
You compare poly count, &quot;bits&quot;, etc - apples to oranges. Look at the games, even screenshots. Why haven't I seen anything that blows the pants off the DC or PS2? >>

Good call on the 3x power thing The only defense I have is basically numbers and Microsoft's PR, neither of which tell about the final game. The Xbox has dominating fillrate numbers over every other console. Of course this doesnt mean everything, but having a huge fillrate advantage is a major major advantage, I'm sure you won't argue that. 160 developers, more tools, best API, making use of the most hardware features, using the most fillrate - there is more to what i say, don't cut out sentences and counter each one individually, counter them all at once.

<< << Yeah, every game that came out for SNES or PS1 were masterpieces. You know goddamn well that only 10% of games are good games. Look at the freaking crapware for PS1, its nearly sickening. Even franchise games such as Twisted Metal games have gone from good fun games to choppy gameplay-sacrificed-for-eyecandy coasters that you only play because of the hype. >>

Yes - much of it is crap. The higher the percentage of quality software compared to crap, the better. It also means that in a sea of &quot;me-too&quot; ports, an original title will be even more necessary to a console's success. Sega, Nintendo, and even Sony can do that. Can M$? >>

They are pledging 25 original MS 1st party titles in the first year, and with 160 developers using a simple API, youre going to get plenty of original titles.

<< << DVD costs $20 extra so it will save you nearly $50 on console price. (By taking away DVD/Mpeg2 licensing fees) >>

My point is that they needed to shave even that licensing fee off - and still are indicating that the console will cost more than the PS2. Not good news. >>

Link? Microsoft is not stupid, they will not overprice their console. Sony will drop the PS2 to $250, maybe $200 depending on Gamecube heat when GC and XBOX debut... Xbox will come in at the same price as the PS2 debuted for. Bill Gates is a smart businessman, there is no denying that. He learned from 3do.

<< << Xbox supports HDTV resolutions, meaning you can hook it straight to your monitor. >>

I'm sure both gamers who can afford one right now will enjoy that. >>

Yeah, because obviously being able to play on a TV AND a monitor is no better than just being able to play on a TV.

<< From DailyRadar -
&quot;Non-Standard USB Controller Ports.
Okay, sure -- the lack of standard USB ports definitely decreases the odds of someone plugging in an alternate control device that may or may not be supported by the software. However, it also makes it appear that Microsoft, like every other company, wants you to buy new, Xbox-stamped peripherals rather than using the ones you already have (shades of Sega's Dreamcast-specific keyboard and mouse). And that just seems like a crappy thing to do.&quot;

Also, go to dailyradar and look at the pics - or the latest issue of EGM - and look for a standard USB port. Let me know when you find one.

At least PS2 meets a middle ground with both controller ports AND normal USB. >>

Just because the PS2 has standard USB ports does not mean it supports standard devices. I seriously doubt keyboards will work, do you have any proof? I don't have a link otherwise right now, but I have read previously that the PS2 will not use any standard USB devices.

<< << And all games for Xbox will be on PC? Are you out of your mind? Do you seriously think that we can run games like they can? >>

Yes - almost all Xbox games will release on PC. Why on earth wouldn't they? >>

Because the computer wont be able to run games in the same fashion. You have awesome bandwidth in a console, whereas you have the PCI/AGP bus on the computer. There are more x86 limitations that a console will not have... this is fact.

<< << We have things called bottlenecks, consoles do not. >>

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You didn't mean that, did you? Come on! You're just pulling my leg, right?
>>

Please see the above argument. Consoles rarely have the hardcore bottlenecks that we have been living with forever.

<< Anyway, as I said, this debate risks going the way of all console debates - into screaming fanboy fits. If anyone wishes to debate this logically like adults, let me know. >>

Tell me, am I not being rational? Anyone? Let's keep this real.

Ive always wanted to say that

 

[pg22]

<< Just because the PS2 has standard USB ports does not mean it supports standard devices. I seriously doubt keyboards will work, do you have any proof? I don't have a link otherwise right now, but I have read previously that the PS2 will not use any standard USB devices. >>




Sorry Seph, you're dead wrong there.

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

<< << Just because the PS2 has standard USB ports does not mean it supports standard devices. I seriously doubt keyboards will work, do you have any proof? I don't have a link otherwise right now, but I have read previously that the PS2 will not use any standard USB devices. >>

Sorry Seph, you're dead wrong there. >>

How am I dead wrong? All i said is that because it has standard ports it does not mean that it supports standard devices. I plug in my intellimouse explorer and i can use it? I think not. Every other sentence in there said that i DOUBT. I asked for a link saying that it supports standard devices... That's it. If you analyze every sentence to the word, you will realize that I said nothing that is wrong.



<< If anyone wishes to debate this logically like adults, let me know. >>

So, you going to come in and logically debate this, or did you up and leave after I put your previous post to shame?

 

[pg22]

<< I plug in my intellimouse explorer and i can use it? I think not. >>



Funny....my USB Intelly Explorer and USB Internet Keyboard Pro both work just fine...and here's your &quot;proof&quot; (I guess I you thought I was lying for some reason.....cuzz you know, bragging about the USB connectivity of my PS2 in contrast to the X-Box is *so* important that I *must* stretch the truth.....right?)

http://www.unrealtournament.com/ps2/


ENHANCED user interface and controls - playable with compatible USB keyboard and mouse.


Now...since X-Box uses USB technology (or so they say)....I'm hoping someone will come out with some kind of adapter for traditional USB devices....but somehow I think this decision was made just to get a few extra bucks.

 

[Johnlee]

I like what MGrocks said best. Lemme play some of the games and then I'll decide!

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

ORIGINAL FLAME EDITED - I even said I was not sure in my original post, there is no reason for flames. Pull your head out of your asshole and read the words I type. Thanks.

 

[pg22]

hmmm....I might be wrong, but I'm thinking you are upset about an argument with another member and you;re getting upset with me....I don't know what you're &quot;original point&quot; was, but I was reading what you posted towards Optimus and saw you had made one incorrect comment, which I corrected.

You then made a post that had all the makings of a great fanboy post...namely

A) Typing in all caps...
B) Even using bold when typing in all caps!
C) Called me a &quot;peniswrinkle&quot;
D) And then called me an ass

E) Best of all...you just edited it all so it's no longer there....nice (well, you still left ass in there )


All I was doing was using fact -- not theory or hyperbole -- to prove you wrong. In turn, you did the afformentioned...

good day